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1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum
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Todd
Posted 2019-11-25 1:41 PM (#590732)
Subject: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Hi folks.
This is Todd, i'm german and proud owner of a canadian 1960 dodge dart.
actually i'm going to try my first rear brake service - changing shoes and wheel brake cylinder.
Soon i'm going to try to pull the first rear drum. Recently bought a good strong puller. But when i look at the drum now, I'm unsure with the axle key (tapered axle). My key do not flush with the hub, it is a lot deeper inserted.
When the brake job is done, do i have to reassemble the drum with the key in that same position ???
Or MUST the key do flush with the hub (all models)??? I would be glad to get some support, thanks a lot.

Regards, Todd

Edited by Todd 2019-11-25 1:47 PM
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ronbo97
Posted 2019-11-25 10:22 PM (#590755 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: RE: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


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Hi Todd -

Congrats on your purchase !

The key should generally be flush with the hub. But if it's pushed in a bit further, no big deal. It's there to keep the drum from rotating on the tapered axle.

What kind of puller did you get ? Be sure that you purchased a tapered axle puller like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tapered-Axle-Drum-Brake-Wheel-Hub-Puller-Universal-Remover-Tool-Bearing-Mechanic/401971595509

Ron

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mobileparts
Posted 2019-11-25 11:52 PM (#590758 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


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Todd,
I have the six (6) wheel cylinders and front & rear ++ quality ++ brake
shoes -- and a whole lot more -- ALL brand new.......
Yours, Craig
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mobileparts
Posted 2019-11-25 11:53 PM (#590759 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


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Posts: 179
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Todd,
I have the six (6) wheel cylinders and front & rear ++ quality ++ brake
shoes -- and a whole lot more -- ALL brand new.......
Yours, Craig
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Todd
Posted 2019-11-26 3:14 AM (#590762 - in reply to #590755)
Subject: RE: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

ron, thanks a lot! Good to know.

My puller is a "Kukko 40-5"
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Kukko-Universal-Radnabenabzieher-40-5/372716...

I think t's similar.
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Todd
Posted 2019-11-26 3:19 AM (#590763 - in reply to #590759)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Craig; thanks a lot. i already have the shoes and wheel cylinder (andy bernbaum).
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wizard
Posted 2019-11-26 4:34 AM (#590765 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Hi Todd, the puller should do the job (5 arms is the best).

Loosen the nut, but leave it in place - the hub/drum can come off with heavy force.
You should not hit the puller bolt/axle with a sledge - there's risk to damage the trust washer.
Just knock on the puller arms with a good rubber mallet - if it doesn't come loose, just wait over the night and try again.

Once you have the hub/drums off, clean the taper on the axle and in the hub until no rust and/or grease remains.
Check the wedge, if someone mounted the hub with grease, then theres a risk that the wedges can be cut off.

When you mount the hub, apply a thin layer of pulverized chalk on the taper on the axle and in the hub (this is the only acceptable for to keep the mechanical bond).

As Ron writes, the wedge should be flush with the hub ( the keyway is long, but if the wedge is too long inside theres a risk of that the hub will run skew.

Inspect the threads on the axle and in the nut, if good, tighten to specs. If the threads are half bad tighten to 120Nm.
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Todd
Posted 2019-11-27 3:18 AM (#590814 - in reply to #590765)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Hi wizard.
OK i got it. Thank you so much all for lend a helpin' hand. I'll do my very best.

...and here she is

https://show.picr.de/37307417dt.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...

https://show.picr.de/37307420ot.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...

Edited by Todd 2019-11-27 4:04 AM
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ABloch
Posted 2019-11-27 10:08 AM (#590824 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: RE: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Posts: 1251
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Location: Pacific Northwest
.



(37307420ot.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 37307420ot.jpg (173KB - 16 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-11-27 12:18 PM (#590826 - in reply to #590814)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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The other one:

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Todd
Posted 2019-11-29 3:58 AM (#590892 - in reply to #590826)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Hi again.
Well, i have big trouble with on of the hexagon bolts to back off the brake shoe. One bolt is radiused, no way to turn it with whatever. We tried everything. We also tried welding a nut on it. No way. Nothing works.
So one shoe is backed off and the other is not completly backed offf. But the Drum is turnig freely. Should i try to pull the drum anyway? Is there a risk to damage anything (bend the irreplaceable support plate??). What will be if the shoe get stucked behind the burr in the drum? What could happen in worst case? Thanks again for your advice.

Edited by Todd 2019-11-29 6:11 AM
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wizard
Posted 2019-11-29 7:26 AM (#590899 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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First of all, the rear adjuster is tightened in the same direction as the wheel turns in reverse, hence loosened in the opposite direction.
The front adjuster is tightened in the same direction as the wheel turns in forward drive, hence loosened in the opposite direction..

Just back off the crown nut 2-3 mm and hook up the puller - when the hub comes loose on the taper you should be able to remove the nut and wiggle the hub/drum free.

This is the proper way to mount the tapered hubs on the axles;




(Taper 1.jpg)



(Hub 1.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Taper 1.jpg (170KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments Hub 1.jpg (168KB - 13 downloads)
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Todd
Posted 2019-11-29 8:30 AM (#590900 - in reply to #590899)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

wizard; thanks for reply. OK bending of the support plate is not to be feared ? If not, i will go for it.
Will there be a way to change the adjuster bolt?

Edited by Todd 2019-11-29 8:34 AM
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wizard
Posted 2019-11-29 9:03 AM (#590902 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Todd, the puller should only be used to release the mechanical bond between the tapered axle and the hub. Once the hub has popped loose, remove the puller and work the drum off by hand - hence no risk of bending anything.

Yes, you can open the support plate and remove the adjuster for to weld on a hexagonal bolt head - I have done this repair back in the seventies.
But you must open some staked parts up and then spot weld it back together.

That said, the best would be that you buy a support plate from John Fowlie (Big M here on the forum)
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Todd
Posted 2019-11-29 9:16 AM (#590903 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

wizard, thank you so much!! So Happy to get the best support here!!
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Todd
Posted 2019-11-30 11:04 AM (#590936 - in reply to #590903)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Hi.
Success!! Done! Thanks for your great support!!!
Drum popped off after a few smacks on the puller wings with a big hammer.
Well, the linings do not look too bad, and wheel brake cylinder is dry and ok. But i'm going to change both anyway.
disassembled the support plate and the backing plate. There are 5 thin metal shims behind the backing plate (i'lhave to clean).
and here again some questions:
1) Do the 5 shims have to be re-assembled clean and dry or is it better to oil the surfaces a little?
2) the outer oil seal in the backing plate ok....change it anyway?
2) How does the torque of the support plate (when re-assembling) do have to be? 30 to 35 foot pounds? Is that correct? Seems
a little low to me.....but secure the nuts with loctite is better or not?

regards, Todd


Edited by Todd 2019-11-30 11:06 AM
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wizard
Posted 2019-11-30 11:29 AM (#590937 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Great, good work Todd!

1) Clean all the shims and mating surfaces and test mount the dust shield, tighten the nuts to 40-47 Nm.
Now hit one of the shafts inwards with a heavy rubber mallet, go to the other side and hit the other shaft in the same way. Now you have seated the bearings and you will notice the end-play. Measure the end-play with an indicator clock - check the shop manual for the specs. Typically 0,3 - 0,5 mm) . Remove or add shims until the end play is within the tolerances.

2) Check if there is residues of hypoid oil coming out from the bearing - this will indicate that the inner seal is bad. The outer seal is mostly for dust protection. No need to change if seal is ok.

3) Torque the nuts to 40-47 Nm, it's totally ok. LocTite is not needed if you have the lock washers.

Once that you have set the correct end-play, remove the dust shields and the final shim package, apply a thin layer of light grease on all shims. All paint on the dust shield on the shim mating murface must be removed. Apply a thin layer of grease also on the dust shield. Mount and tighten to specs. Wipe away all excessive grease and paint the naked (eventually) surface of the dust shield.
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-01 4:59 AM (#590956 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Thanks again for reply wizard, it is very nice!
hmm...measuring axle shaft end play..? Well i have to say that i actually jacked up only one rear side of the car and pulled just one drum. And i did not touch or change the bearing or axle shaft. The bearing is well. i just have had to disassemble the Support Plate for repair of the bolt. And i just took off the backing plate and and wanted to clean the shim pack a little and re-assemble all with new shoes and wheel brake cylinder. Then on to the right rear drum.
Do i really have to measure something prior to re-assembling?

and again...so happy to get great help here.

Edited by Todd 2019-12-01 5:06 AM
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-01 5:21 AM (#590957 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Todd, you don't have to, but it's the proper thing to do. The wheel bearings might have some wear after all those years and that would give a larger end-play. With the correct end-play, the bearings will live much longer.

You dont need to demount anything more on the other side - just test mount and do the proceedure above. You need to lift up that wheel as well though.

If you don't have an indicator clock, measure with a caliper between the crown nut and the dust shield.


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Todd
Posted 2019-12-01 5:59 AM (#590959 - in reply to #590957)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

ok i got it. i will measure the endplay. Good to know, as you wrote, i now found the procedure in my specs. You're right, it is better to measure the end play.
thanks a lot!!
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-01 12:44 PM (#590971 - in reply to #590959)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Whooow....i located a crack outside at the drum surface. the inner surfaces are ok, but the crack do not look good.
I will take the drum to my local garage / mechanic to have a look. But i don't think that it would be a good idea to re-assemble this.
What are my options? The hub is swedged into the drum you all know. Any idea? I have 11 x 2" brake drums. Which drum would fit?
(oh my god...)

Edited by Todd 2019-12-01 1:12 PM
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-01 1:25 PM (#590973 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Todd, try to hold the drum in the air with a string and hit it light with a hammer;

- Cracked drum will sound dull without any clear ringing noise
- Good drum will ring out clear

These drums will fit;

- Dodge '60 PD3, PD4, Darts exc. Suburban
- Dodge '61 Detroit built exc. Suburban

Auto wreckers say that Plymouth '55-'56 with 11" brakes will fit

A new "yellow" drum could be used, but I strongly Believe that the drum must be mounted on the hub and then turned straight.

Your best option is to buy a used drum and support plate.

Try to contact John Fowlie here http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/view-profile.asp?action=view&uid=...
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-01 1:55 PM (#590975 - in reply to #590973)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

hey wizard, thanks for reply. I just tried this. Well, i must say the sound is not like a clear bell. it's just metal sound...hard to discribe
this. here are some pics.

https://show.picr.de/37336079il.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...
https://show.picr.de/37336081nh.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...
https://show.picr.de/37336082st.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...
https://show.picr.de/37336087ww.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...
https://show.picr.de/37336087ww.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-01 2:40 PM (#590976 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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You're right Todd, that's an accident waiting to happen.
Looks like a cast error.
Get another drum/hub....
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-02 9:15 AM (#591003 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

My mechanic says the same.
Well i assume i have to preserve the hub, right? Then rivet on a "new" used drum ?
my issue is to find a 11 x 2" drum that will fit. If you have another ideas, links to buy....i would be happy.
My search has not been a success so far....
I already contacted John.

Edited by Todd 2019-12-02 9:30 AM
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ABloch
Posted 2019-12-02 11:05 AM (#591005 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Location: Pacific Northwest
Try asking Craig too. mobileparts@yahoo.com

He has a bunch of brake parts...
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-02 11:51 AM (#591008 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Todd, normally the drum always comes with the hub, at least when you buy a used one.

You could try to reach these guys in Sweden.

KP USA-bilar +46 512 61800

Carlo Notaro +46 70 535 09 40

If you buy from Sweden there will be no import charges.
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-02 12:17 PM (#591010 - in reply to #591008)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Great helpfull support guys, thanks a lot for that!!

Well i think it's maybe the best way to do a brake conversion like this: http://hotrodsandhemis.com/TaperedAxleBrakes.html
The reason for that is among other things...maybe i need two new drums, i still don't know the condition of the other drum. I assume it's similar.

Prior i have to measure some things but this one could fit: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1805858&cc=1095049&jsn=1...


Oh-oh---this time lord you gave me a mountain to climb...
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-02 12:38 PM (#591012 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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I did the modification of separating the drums from the hub several years ago (as you can see in my photo above).

The hub and drum was balanced as a unit (hence the red color spots in my photo).

Most probably you won't get any problems with this as you can shift the drum in 5 different position for to try the best one.
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-05 11:47 AM (#591109 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Hi folks.

I stay in contact with John Fowlie. He's a very nice and helpful guy. He said, that there were two different appearing drums that were used 1960.
Well, my specs do say the same : https://up.picr.de/37362296ce.jpg

Well I don't know the difference between "Detroit built" (Part #1734 163) and "Exc. Detroit built" (Part #2200 135). Would they both fit / be similar?

This is the drum at my car : https://up.picr.de/37047378fu.jpg
Is this a "Detroit" or not ?"
Detroit means USA built to me, but my car is canadian built. Does that have anything to do with it?

MOPARMALL has a complete Drum/Hub assembly, ready to install (but do not look similat to mine) https://www.moparmall.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=HY-61063

What do you mean...if this would fit, i'd buy this drum. But I really have to be sure, it's a bunch of money for me shipping this oversea.

Thanks in advance für your opinions




Edited by Todd 2019-12-05 11:57 AM
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-05 12:48 PM (#591113 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 12039
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Post your VIN-number, the we could help you with the production plant
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-05 12:53 PM (#591114 - in reply to #591113)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

VIN: 5109 13 0711

thank you so much in advance
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-05 1:17 PM (#591118 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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So the car is
5 Dodge Dart 8 cyl
1 Matador, Seneca
0 1960
9 Windsor Ontario

So the car was built in Canada, hence not Detroit
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-05 1:25 PM (#591119 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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Your drums are riveted to the hubs and it seems that the wheel mounts with bolts.
Thats a clue...
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-05 1:31 PM (#591120 - in reply to #591118)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Okay wizard, thanks a lot.
This means, the Moparmall Drum/Hub would fit. As you can see on the picture https://www.moparmall.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=HY-61063
there is a small number stamped onto the drum : 22001...the bold covers the rest. The # sure is 2200135 as shown in the specs i have linked above "exc. Detroit blt."
So the drum should fit. Can you confirm this?

Edited by Todd 2019-12-05 1:32 PM
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-05 1:51 PM (#591121 - in reply to #591120)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

I'm totally confused.
You wrote, some autowrecker's say that '55-'56 Plymouth drums would fit. Well, this one looks nearly similar to my drum:

https://www.moparmall.com/MoPar-PN-1554982-1554983-Brake-Drum-Hub-p/...
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-05 1:53 PM (#591123 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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I can't confirm that the drum would fit, but I do think so.
The price is way to high if you consider the shipping and import cost.
Another thing that I don't like is that they have turned the drums. If the diameter is too large for the radius of your brake shoes you will have to reline the brake shoes and grind the correct radius ar a truck brake shop.
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-05 1:56 PM (#591124 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum



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It's plausible that you have an earlier drum as in general most drums was riveted back then
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-06 10:13 AM (#591168 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Moparmall made a reply with an also plausibel fact: "If your car is Canadian built, its likely that it has Plymouth components. Click on the following for 1960 Plymouth rear drums
https://www.moparmall.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=926-02X

I know the price is.....ähmm....anyway....But if I take into account the fact that Canadian Dodge used many parts of Plymouth at that time, and compare that drum with mine, that all makes sense to me. I will probably (have to) buy this drum.
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Todd
Posted 2019-12-07 5:05 AM (#591211 - in reply to #590732)
Subject: Re: 1960 Dodge Dart Rear Brake Drum


Member

Posts: 20

Good morning folks. I'm still pondering before ordering ... it all has to fit, because it's a lot of money.
Do I have to worry that the hub of the offered brake drum does not fit on the taper? Or did all the cones / taper have the same dimensions back then?
Of course, based on these early mopars.
Craig has also made a favorable offer. He has a NOS drum, but unfortunately without a hub. Well i decided to buy drum/hub as an assembly.
In the meantime, I also had a cheap offer from Sweden. Unfortunately, it did not work out.....


Edited by Todd 2019-12-07 12:37 PM
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