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adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-15 1:47 PM (#580923)
Subject: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Today I just got a phone call from my engine builder about the crankshaft. A crankshaft with the old style end would cost between USD 5000.- and 10'000.- not balanced. I want to stick with the A466 in my Letter and so in my head the question (Subject) rose. it's because a rotating asseembly (crankshaft, connection rods, pistons /w rings fully balanced) for a 440 costs about USD 2500.- to 3000.-

Of course there are two other options...

a) metal hot spray to all bearing surfaces to shave the bearing surfaces afterward to the factory specification.

b) new style crankshaft and a A727, but that's what I do not want in my Letter.

I'll appreciate your answers. Thank you.

Happy Restoring!

Dieter

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wizard
Posted 2019-04-15 3:06 PM (#580929 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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The only economical and good option is to buy a fair used crankshaft and grind it to under dimension
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57chizler
Posted 2019-04-16 2:36 PM (#580978 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Is hard-chroming the journals an option? Used to be the cheapest way in The States.

https://www.powercrankshaft.com/crankshaft-repair/
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-16 3:24 PM (#580984 - in reply to #580978)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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I have been told many times by experienced people not to do hard chrome plating. It eventually wears off and creates debri in your bearings. Not good.

Welding up the crank journal and grinding it back to spec is fine though. I have done that many times without any issue. That's what I would do if I were in your shoes. In the US, I could get that done for about $150 + $150 for the rest of the machining. Not too expensive.

If you do go with a new style crank, I would use the '62-'65 push button 727 trans that will mate up well with your push buttons, but does require a number of different modifications to your driveshaft, trans mount etc.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-16 3:29 PM (#580985 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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But....it sounds like you don't have a journal that has been ruined. It sounds like you just want to bring the whole crank up to spec. If that's the case, then just grind the whole thing to .01" under and use oversize bearings. Oversize bearings are usually cheaper than standard because that's what everyone does. If you want to retain the hard nitride on the surface of the journals, then the hot metal spray *might* be a good option. It depends on how well it remains stuck to the surface over time.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-04-16 3:32 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-16 9:41 PM (#580995 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Thinking about the hard chrome plating, I bet the problem is they apply the chrome directly to the crank. I know from my experience at my job that you would get better adhesion if you plate with titanium first, and then chrome plate, or just use titanium instead of chrome. Not sure if the titanium would give you a similar type of wear resistance or not.
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57chizler
Posted 2019-04-17 1:00 PM (#581024 - in reply to #580984)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Powerflite - 2019-04-16 12:24 PM

I have been told many times by experienced people not to do hard chrome plating. It eventually wears off and creates debri in your bearings. Not good.


Nonsense. Shaft hard-chroming is widely used in industrial applications to prevent wear. One of the premier hard-chroming facilities was located near me and, for years, I never ran a crank that wasn't hard-chromed.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-19 10:50 AM (#581146 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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I just let you know what my engine builder (typically builds really bullet proof race engines). He told me undersize journals and oversize bearing cups are a foule compromise, because the bearing cups are not the same (multilayer bearing cups). The layer thickness are thicker than in stock bearing cups and they wouldn't last as long as stock bearing cups.

Another option in my mind right now is an Imperail 413 engine (running) and exchange the camshaft, distributor, intake and exhaust manifolds.

Dieter

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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-19 12:21 PM (#581149 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Millions of people used oversize bearings for many thousands of miles. Your machinist is full of it. This chart shows that they increase the shell size to account for changes in bearing size. The layer thicknesses remain the same - even for small changes like .001". The only issue with using oversize bearings is that by cutting the std crank journal surface, you lose the hard nitride outer layer which makes your new crank surface softer and more vulnerable to wear. But it will still wear fine for the amount of miles you are likely to put on the motor, and the reality is that the bearings usually wear out before the crank journals anyway.



(identify.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments identify.jpg (212KB - 69 downloads)
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wayfarer
Posted 2019-04-19 6:35 PM (#581162 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Well....., there is one adapter for a post-62 RB crank for a pre-62 converter, but you would still need to have a spacer for the block to trans case. Weld the crank or cut it to 0.010 and move on.

I agree. Your machinist is, for some reason, being less than factual.

Under sized bearing are used by the millions every day in this country. I have built blown 392 packages and used them; In fact, I haven't used standard journal sizes in years.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-20 2:10 PM (#581178 - in reply to #581162)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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wayfarer - 2019-04-19 12:35 AM Well....., there is one adapter for a post-62 RB crank for a pre-62 converter, but you would still need to have a spacer for the block to trans case. Weld the crank or cut it to 0.010 and move on. I agree. Your machinist is, for some reason, being less than factual. Under sized bearing are used by the millions every day in this country. I have built blown 392 packages and used them; In fact, I haven't used standard journal sizes in years.

Thanks a lot. I did a little bit research on the internet (duck2go) and got out that the newer style crankshaft uses a flex plate to mount the torque converter, while the old style crankshaft uses the outer diameter of the flange to center the old style torque converter. Beside that if you have both crankshaft styles available and an old style block, it should be possible to measure the difference of the flange end position to the block mating surface to the torque converter house to elaborate if a shaving or a shim plate is necessary to get the same position. Please correct me, if I'm wrong. Thanks a lot

 

Dieter

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57chizler
Posted 2019-04-20 3:53 PM (#581182 - in reply to #581178)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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The early crank flange extends farther from the block than the new style, so it would seem easy to simply machine a spacer to extend the crank flange for use with the A-466 but the problem is the studs built into the face of the A-466 converter, they're not long enough to extend through both the spacer and the crank flange.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-21 1:53 AM (#581196 - in reply to #581182)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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57chizler - 2019-04-19 9:53 PM The early crank flange extends farther from the block than the new style, so it would seem easy to simply machine a spacer to extend the crank flange for use with the A-466 but the problem is the studs built into the face of the A-466 converter, they're not long enough to extend through both the spacer and the crank flange.

Thanks for your hint... the page I got the information is link to clutch - drag racing

I hope a talented and professional genious machinist could solve the stem length problem as well. Another problem could be to mount the hex nuts while the new style crankshaft is already installed into the engine block by the way...

Dieter

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wayfarer
Posted 2019-04-29 10:50 PM (#581550 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter,

I make an adapter for the late crank to early converter; it is part of an on-going project to install A-LA engines in the early cars. The project is about half-finished. But for the B-RB engine you would still need to design and manufacture the appropriate block adapter that would also mount the early starter. If you want to talk about this please use my shop email: hemi.parts@yahoo.com

Your best solution is to simply grind your existing crankshaft to the next available undersize and get back to driving the car.

Gary
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-05-19 8:39 AM (#582277 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Thank you very much for your answer. The idea of the engine shop was to use a rotating assembly with a stroker crank and forged pistons. But no crankshaft producing company offers an early B/RB crank style as a stock crankshaft. This means I have to pay the drop forging tool as well, because it seems no company addressed will see a business model for early R/RB engines.

Dieter

BTW: the second idea was to use a modern (e.g.) 440 crankshaft with the existing (old style) engine block. The third idea (apparently the most realistic) is either to grind the original crankshaft or to find a quite good replacement crankshaft of an early RB engine (NY, Imperial, or Dodge/Plymouth/De Soto with an RB engine).



Edited by di_ch_NY56 2019-05-19 8:44 AM
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wayfarer
Posted 2019-05-19 12:23 PM (#582287 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter, if you are needing/wanting to have a stroker crank then it is possible but, just not cheap.
Marine Crankshaft (in the Los Angeles area) can build a welded stroker from an oem but you would likely need
to find one in the states and not ship yours over here due to freight. The cost of the re-work starts around $1000......
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-05-20 2:14 PM (#582325 - in reply to #582287)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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wayfarer - 2019-05-18 6:23 PM Dieter, if you are needing/wanting to have a stroker crank then it is possible but, just not cheap. Marine Crankshaft (in the Los Angeles area) can build a welded stroker from an oem but you would likely need to find one in the states and not ship yours over here due to freight. The cost of the re-work starts around $1000......

Thanks a lot for your answer. The engine shop already sent my crankshaft to the States (it's on a private address now). Yesterday I watched some videos of crankshaft welding (broken crankshaft,  but not in the States, but (most probably) Iran). Because another idea rose in my head... is it possible to cut the end (end flange, behind the rear seal area) of a e.g. 440 crankshaft and weld the end of a 413 (early) onto the crankshaft? Would it cope the torque the engine produces?

Dieter



Edited by di_ch_NY56 2019-05-20 2:16 PM
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58coupe
Posted 2019-05-20 10:41 PM (#582350 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter, remember that all of our early cranks are forged steel and welding even the very best is actually a casting.I would be afraid the twisting torque would eventually break a crank made from 2 pieces.
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57chizler
Posted 2019-05-21 2:04 PM (#582372 - in reply to #582350)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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All big block Mopar crankshafts prior to '73 are forged.
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wayfarer
Posted 2019-05-22 12:25 PM (#582407 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter, if your crank is already in the states then have it 'reworked'. Your state-side connection can call
Marine Crankshaft...talk with David...714-549-2388
Although it is technically feasible to graft on a different flange it would also be possible to pile on lots-o-weld material and
change the design...neither would be cheaper than welding and stroking.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-12-29 10:21 AM (#592177 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Hi guys

I just did a little more searching on google (uuups)...

What I got out is that a guy running a 300F runs a later 6 bolt crankshaft with the old style A466 TorqueFilte. If the other guy still wants to get rid of his crankshaft - I don't know. But the guy running his 300F linked to our forum...

 bolt non-tapped 413 crankshaft

I don't know if this guy (ScottSmith_Harmes) is still here and reads my entry... he's or was located in Spokane/Wa, the entry in the linked forum is about 8 years old.

Happy Restoring!

Dieter



Edited by di_ch_NY56 2019-12-29 11:29 AM
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wayfarer
Posted 2019-12-29 7:23 PM (#592216 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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The pre-62 crank extends farther from the face of the block than the 62-up cranks. This allow for nuts to be installed on the studs that are part of the early converter.
The converter bolts directly to the pre-62 crank flange. 62-up use a flexplate to drive the converter. There is no room to put nuts or anything else behind the late flange.

If you put a late crank in front of an early trans there will be no way to couple the 'old' converter without an adapter. It is NOT a simple design since it needs to completely support the old converter and position it to engage the starter. The adapter will have to be driven by a late flexplate since there would be no way to rigidly couple a converter to the adapter and also rigidly couple the adapter to the late flange.
It may be possible to weld some 'lugs' onto the old converter and drive it with a flexplate but you would also have to do 'something' at the center of the converter to provide registration to the late crank.
Additionally, if you add any length to the crank/converter assembly then you must then add the same to the face of the block or the starter will not engage.

Is there a way to 'swap' flanges??
In an industrial setting I would cutoff and turn down the crank and spline the nub, then make a new flange of whatever particular dimensions were needed and broach the hub to match. This would be similar to the front of the crank on high-dollar Top Fuel engines for mounting a blower drive hub.
http://winbergcrankshafts.com/index.php/hemi-alcohola-fuel/ Last time I asked, Winberg cranks start around $4k.....
All of these 'fixes' will be horribly expensive.

Fix your crank, buy a replacement, build a stroker, buy a engine and ship it to Switzerland, and each will be cheaper than the above 'fixes'.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-12-29 9:11 PM (#592218 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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I can't believe you are still crying about using oversize bearings!! Get over it. If you want to use a later crank, couple it with an aluminum 727 transmission. End of story.
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Rebels-59
Posted 2019-12-30 7:28 AM (#592226 - in reply to #592177)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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di_ch_NY56 - 2019-12-29 3:21 PM

I don't know if this guy (ScottSmith_Harmes) is still here and reads my entry... he's or was located in Spokane/Wa, the entry in the linked forum is about 8 years old.

Happy Restoring!

Dieter



If this is the Guy,, Not Logged in for almost a Year,, But has a Website listed if you want to try and contact him there or on his Email..

http://forwardlook.net/forums/view-profile.asp?action=view&uid=643

.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-12-30 10:51 AM (#592234 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Why I'm elaborating so many ways is because I want to start the engine building process at the engine builder again. The body of my Letter is finished and at my location (pretty sure) at the summer 2020. Even I do not get the engine asap, at least I would like to know if the proposal of the engine builder is a way that would be succsessful.

Wishing everybody a fortune jump into the New Year.

Happy Restoring!

Dieter

BTW: two pictures of parts of my engine...





(IMG_3541_first bearing cap removed.JPG)



(IMG_3607_crankshaft out of the engine.JPG)



Attachments
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Attachments IMG_3541_first bearing cap removed.JPG (242KB - 41 downloads)
Attachments IMG_3607_crankshaft out of the engine.JPG (192KB - 41 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2019-12-30 11:38 AM (#592236 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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The bearing seems to have a corrosive damage Dieter? Like if the oil wasn't changed for a long, long time and the acid residues started to eat out the babbits. If so much material would have teared off and rotated, the enginge would surely seize and the babbits would have created a groove around the bearing.

Do you have any close up photos of the state of the journals on the crank?

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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-12-30 1:37 PM (#592246 - in reply to #592236)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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wizard - 2019-12-29 5:38 PM The bearing seems to have a corrosive damage Dieter? Like if the oil wasn't changed for a long, long time and the acid residues started to eat out the babbits. If so much material would have teared off and rotated, the enginge would surely seize and the babbits would have created a groove around the bearing. Do you have any close up photos of the state of the journals on the crank?

I'm afraid I could not provide close up photos of the journals. But at the first stage of inspection I removed each cap after I mounted the first cap again that I removed. From my memories some of the main journals have imprints of the pieces that separated from the babbit layer. Furthermore I have absolutely no clue if the engine rebuilder (a race engine building company) took measurements of the journals prior to ship it to his friend in the States.

Personally I do not have the experience to decide if these imprints must be removed or if these could stay on the surface. This judgement is the base to decide of how many steps of under size the crankshaft has to be shaved at the journals (mainly the main journals).

Why that subject from time to time pops up in my mind is because I already did a downpayment of a little bit more than USD 9000.-. (I guess the engine restorer thought it would be ways easier to get key part for the old style 413 engine)

I came, after some conversation via mail to Scott, to the conclusion that an adapter (necessary thickness about .375"; the thickness of the machined part of the rear flange of either style crankshaft is about the same) is impossible (dead lock adapter, because the old style converter has threaded stems, the flex plate needs screws - either the hex nuts or the screws couldn't be mounted) to build.

So I have to stick with an old style crankshaft. I draw a little schedule in my head about my Letter. I'm hopeful that end of 2022, eventually end of 2023, I'll be that far at the restoration that I could reasonably mount the engine. If there will be a solution of buying a running 60 NY or Imperial engine, a quite good crankshaft, or if I gonna pay for forging forms to build a forged old style stroker crankshaft - I don't know right now.

Happy Restoring!

Dieter

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Powerflite
Posted 2019-12-30 5:44 PM (#592257 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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You can get an extra amount of stroke out of your current crank by offset grinding the rod journals to big block Chevy size at 2.2". The mopar big block uses 2.38" rod journals. This will give you an extra .18" of throw, which equates to .36" of extra stroke. That would bring the stroke to 4.1" and the displacement at .03" over to 458 cubic inches. They may not be able to get the full .18" of added throw, so some downward adjustment to this may occur, but around 450 cu. in. is definitely possible. Of course, custom pistons may then be required if you can't get a piston with a short enough height.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-12-30 5:45 PM
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2020-01-01 7:40 AM (#592336 - in reply to #592257)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Powerflite - 2019-12-29 11:44 PM You can get an extra amount of stroke out of your current crank by offset grinding the rod journals to big block Chevy size at 2.2". The mopar big block uses 2.38" rod journals. This will give you an extra .18" of throw, which equates to .36" of extra stroke. That would bring the stroke to 4.1" and the displacement at .03" over to 458 cubic inches. They may not be able to get the full .18" of added throw, so some downward adjustment to this may occur, but around 450 cu. in. is definitely possible. Of course, custom pistons may then be required if you can't get a piston with a short enough height.

Thanks a lot Nathan, as I wrote to Wizard (via email) I'm thinking about to order the final settlement at the restorers company and carry all, really all parts of the engine back to me. It's because apparently we (the engine builder and me) are not meeting each other in the subject (stroker or stock stroke) and the judgement of the crankshaft (undersize is a no go or not, personally I could live with two steps undersize - if necessary; the connection rod journals all were looking good).

I wish Happy New Year to you.

Dieter

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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2020-01-01 9:18 AM (#592340 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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The lower main bearing shell 3 and 2 are showing cavitation. I searched at DuckToGo for the string "mahle engine bearing failure analysis". Open it with Windows Media Player, make it big and hit number "19" at the top with your mouse pointer. There is explained how that damage has happened. Then perhaps you could imagine, how the last owner (mexican rooted american) ran my Letter - the last owner driving the Letter under it's own power.

Happy New Year!

Dieter

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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2020-01-02 9:26 AM (#592375 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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I'm still searching...

I found an interesting essay at Hot Rod - Crankshaft Tech, that might help...

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0710phr-crankshaft-tech/

I'm pointing to the "If all fails" paragraph.

Happy Restoring

Dieter

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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2020-01-10 7:12 AM (#592731 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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After I heard about the consequences of a stroker/crossram combo engine (torque with no end, but choked at higher revs, ways below the stock 5000 rpm peak power). I stay away from the stroker idea. The best way is to use the stock crankshaft. If possible I would like to use the stock heads as well. No issue with wrong intake surface angle (either conventional 4bbl intake manifold, or crossram intake system) like with the Mopar high performance heads. The stock cylinder heads have a combustion chamber size of 78.5cc at my engine (2128 521 cylinder heads).

Happy Restoring!

Dieter



Edited by di_ch_NY56 2020-01-10 7:14 AM
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2020-08-01 3:52 AM (#601562 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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When I visited the engine rebuilder by passig I heard the information "hypereuthtic pistons" and the tight piston/cylinder wall lash these pistons will allow to prevent piston tipper. My comment... it's not a Chebby 427 high compression HP engine (accoriding the engine builder, the same con rod lenght for the 427 like the 454, but longer piston pin to top distance).

Happy Restoring!

Dieter

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wayfarer
Posted 2020-08-03 10:49 PM (#601669 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Maybe it is just because it has been a long day that I am a bit confused.
Yes, the longer the stroke the more torque you will get but long strokes do not like high rpm. But then, you would not need high rpm.
Back in the old days there were plenty of RB engines with 1/2 strokes, not so much these days. The stock head would be adequate for most operations but not 'high-rpm' situations.
There are a multitude of manufacturers making pistons for the RB engines but the 413 suffers from lack of attention due to the small bore. If you want to change compression then forgings will be needed.

I will strongly recommend that you look at the total amount of money you have invested so far in your engine and then consider buying a complete rebuilt engine from someone here in the states and ship it to you. It appears that you are chasing your tail and not getting anywhere.

SeaContainers leave the East Coast every day. One of them must be going to Switzerland.
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