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PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2019-03-16 3:31 PM (#579433)
Subject: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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Hi gang

I searched the posts but I couldn't find any discussion on this subject.

I just installed a pcv valve on my 58 Belvie (with some tricky tubes and hoses).

Immediately I could smell less CO on the exausts and I have the feeling the car has a better gas mileage.

Trouble is the pcv valve I found is one without spring inside, It seems to work by gravity, and in some road situation it seems not to function properly causing engine misfire.

Has anybody found already a better model of spring operated PCV,  to put to engines like mine?

I am attaching some pics to show how the valve is routed.

 (of course the right side breather is open and soon I willl put a small filter to it.)



Edited by lonesome mopar 2019-03-16 3:47 PM




(hose start resized.jpg)



(pcv position resized.jpg)



(into the carb spacer resized.jpg)



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Attachments hose start resized.jpg (210KB - 16 downloads)
Attachments pcv position resized.jpg (206KB - 17 downloads)
Attachments into the carb spacer resized.jpg (198KB - 18 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-16 7:08 PM (#579436 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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You could try a power brake check valve. I don't know if the engine fumes will plug it up or not, but I know those don't work with gravity.
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2019-03-17 7:13 AM (#579456 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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Great info, Nathan !!!
I'll check it out.
Thanks a lot !!!
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2019-03-20 10:00 AM (#579582 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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no vacuum check valves for mopar available on Ebay....!

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57chizler
Posted 2019-03-20 12:49 PM (#579593 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: RE: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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lonesome mopar - 2019-03-16 12:31 PM

Trouble is the pcv valve I found is one without spring inside, It seems to work by gravity


A PCV valve without a spring? By definition, a PCV valve has to have a spring in order for the vacuum to have resistance to pull against so it isn't an open vacuum leak; sounds like you have a simple check valve.
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miquelonbrad
Posted 2019-03-20 4:18 PM (#579601 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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The one on my '74 Ford has no spring in it...
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2019-03-21 10:09 AM (#579647 - in reply to #579593)
Subject: RE: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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57chizler - 2019-03-20 6:49 PM
lonesome mopar - 2019-03-16 12:31 PM Trouble is the pcv valve I found is one without spring inside, It seems to work by gravity
A PCV valve without a spring? By definition, a PCV valve has to have a spring in order for the vacuum to have resistance to pull against so it isn't an open vacuum leak; sounds like you have a simple check valve.

 

I was surprised as well !

By the way Summitracing is listing it a a PCV valve....

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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-21 10:40 AM (#579652 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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Most of the older PCValves work using gravity. I haven't seen any that use springs. Maybe from a newer application?
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57chizler
Posted 2019-03-21 12:48 PM (#579667 - in reply to #579601)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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miquelonbrad - 2019-03-20 1:18 PM

The one on my '74 Ford has no spring in it...


Have you actually cut it open? Even though the valve inside will rattle when shaken it still has a spring.



(PCV.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2019-03-21 3:01 PM (#579674 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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I very much doubt that the CO will be less with a PCV-valve. I strongly believe that the fumes from the open crankhouse ventilation will disappeare completely.


To feed an engine with waste gas and unburned hydrocarbons is never good for the engine, but of course better for the ambient.


To get better gas mileage from a PCV valve would mean that the energy from waste gas and hydrocarbons should be higher than gasolie.


That said - to each his own
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-21 3:24 PM (#579676 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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I don't know what it is with many Europeans and the PCV. It's not like Americans are trying to save the planet with a PCV, but it provides a number of advantages that are very beneficial to make it worth running them. It reduces internal pressures to increase gasket life, it prevents you from having to smell the blow by when you are sitting at a light, keeps the outside of your motor cleaner and it helps the environment. The fumes from an open ventilation downdraft tube don't disappear. They escape out into your engine compartment while you are sitting at a light and put oily fumes onto everything and enter into your cab for you to breathe. If your motor is worn, it gets much worse. Cleaning up the smell and fumes for you to breathe is always a good thing for your driving experience.

Gas & unburned hydrocarbons burn. It isn't bad for an engine to burn fuel. The energy from the PCV can be higher than that of gasoline because it contains oil residue too. Burning the oil can be bad because it can clog up your spark plugs over time, but if you run electronic ignition with a high power coil, this isn't much of a problem, and the actual oil content is small. But I doubt the mileage improvements too, unless there was a different problem that the PCV fixed. The motor can run a *little* richer or leaner depending on how much oil, CO, CO2 and unburned gas you have coming into the intake, but the effect is small overall. But the benefits of running them are huge.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-03-21 4:19 PM (#579679 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318


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holy crap someone knows what a PCV valve does and how it operates... (falls out of my chair)… Usually the response is "we don't need no PCV doohiky whatchamacallit!, those ain't do nothing!"...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIfI9aZHt4

 

 



Edited by mikes2nd 2019-03-21 4:29 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2019-03-21 5:19 PM (#579683 - in reply to #579679)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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mikes2nd - 2019-03-21 4:19 PM

holy crap someone knows what a PCV valve does and how it operates... (falls out of my chair)… Usually the response is "we don't need no PCV doohiky whatchamacallit!, those ain't do nothing!"...



Can't remember anyone stating this. After all, they heat the intake charge and feed the engine with what are mostly exhaust gasses. It can only reduce efficiency, if you believe in the laws of physics, that is.
CO2 does not burn, it is used in fire extinguishers. If you replace part of the intake charge, which should a clean, cold, dense mixture of fuel and air, with hot CO2, again, it can only reduce efficiency. Blowby does not burn, try to light it. If it does, you're doing something wrong.

My engine never had a PCV and will never get one. Assembled August of 1959, never rebuild, way over 330K miles, runs like new, perfect oil pressure, regularly sees 6K and 130+ mph. After 1988/89 and almost daily driving (30+ years), no sludge formation.


Edited by 1960fury 2019-03-21 5:55 PM
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wizard
Posted 2019-03-22 4:43 AM (#579701 - in reply to #579676)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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Powerflite - 2019-03-21 9:24 PM

The energy from the PCV can be higher than that of gasoline because it contains oil residue too.


I'd say that most of us knows how a PCV-valve works and the benefits from it, which is mostly for the ambient with less smell from hydrocarbons around the car.


But as for the benefit for the engine, I'd say that most of it comes from improved ventiation. To feed the engine with anything else than fuel is not a good thing for the engine.


Oil residue and unburned hydrocarbons doesn't have a higher energy content than gasoline.


The main reason for adding a PCV-valve on older cars should be to have lesser smell around the car.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-22 7:02 PM (#579724 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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Of course adding a *small* amount of CO2 will not benefit you, but it only hurts a little - completely unnoticeable every time I have installed one in terms of power.

Sven, why not look up the information before you deny it's veracity? Or at least offer a reason for refuting it based on facts?

1 gallon Gasoline: 124K BTU
1 gallon oil: 139K BTU

If you have an equally dense mist of oil vapor and gasoline vapor, the oil vapor will give you more energy release when it is burned. Many people have suggested that adding a PCV would make the motor run more lean, but most of the elements entering into it should make it more rich. However, if there are small leaks in the system (which I would guess there always is), there could be some oxygen entering in with it as well. I haven't noticed much of a difference in terms of it being richer or leaner to make up my mind about it. But I have noticed a huge difference in my pleasure driving my car and keeping my motor clean. Running these won't hurt your motor and won't cause any dangerous condition so using them is a win-win for me. Your opinion may vary from my reality.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-03-23 12:13 AM (#579737 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318


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yeah the old dont use a PCV because your venting your whole exhaust in you engine argument... hah yeah sure...
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wizard
Posted 2019-03-23 4:27 AM (#579744 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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I know that burning oil has higher BTU, but the percentage is not high enough to get any effect
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1960fury
Posted 2019-03-23 9:01 AM (#579750 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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It is amazing how the green Nazis succeeded brainwashing people since the 60s. Again, fact, Blowby heats the intake charge, which should be as cool as possible. Fact, Blowby consists of exhaust gasses that do not burn. Try to ignite it it. It won't. Try the same with fuel/air mixture.

So how can anyone with common sense assume feeding an engine with hot, mostly, exhaust gas will make an engine run better? Impossible. Feeding gunk into the engine? Even the German Wikipedia says a PCV can lead to loss of power and performance:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowby

Maybe it can be of benefit for average people, with no clue about engines. If you treat your engine like dirt, use cheap mineral motor oil, if you only drive only short distances, without letting the engine reach operating temperature and drive it without heatriser and/or too rich. You wouldn't expect that in a forum about old collector cars, that are not average transportation.
My actuall real life experience with these cars, driving almost daily for over 30 years proves, that a PCV is not needed to avoid sludge formation. Unlike most here I talk about real life experience.

Edited by 1960fury 2019-03-23 9:08 AM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-03-23 10:40 AM (#579752 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318


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hmm an eco terrorist? Do you burn tires for fun? dump oil in rivers and lakes? hah that'll those s**tters!

are your really going argue that PCV valves "maybe" a benefit to the world? You realize pretty much every engine running on earth is utilizing one right now and they are doing better than they ever did in the 50's. Just a heads up, the earth isn't round and the moon isnt made of cheese. Seriously you think every car should remove their PCV valves because they will all harm their engines from the use of a PCV valve? Do you read what you write?

every car maker, and pretty much everything since 1963 has no problem rerouting that tiny amount of blowby back into the intake.

Heat is not an issue for that small amount, fake news...

There might be a small amount of oil, which you can grab with a catch can if your worried about that, that would be the only true negative against PCV valves.

So it all boils down to you have a problem putting that tiny amount of blowby gases back in the place where it belongs and you want to harm the environment and smell exhaust fumes, drip oil?

I understand if the car is all original, that's 100% fine to run it, but dont try to bs people saying a downdraft tube is better than a PCV, its not and never will be.

yes catalytic converters are bad also right? they drop your horsepower?

Here you should enjoy this picture then... try not to get to excited...






(715246-china-air-pollution.jpg)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-03-23 10:46 AM (#579753 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318


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Here is a quote... from Wiki, the reason PCV valves are required by law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase_ventilation_system

The GM Research Laboratory (led by Dr. Lloyd L. Withrow) discovered in 1958 that the road draft tube was a major source—about half—of the hydrocarbons coming from the automobile. The PCV system thus became the first real vehicle emissions control device.

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1960fury
Posted 2019-03-23 4:19 PM (#579768 - in reply to #579752)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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mikes2nd - 2019-03-23 10:40 AM

hmm an eco terrorist? Do you burn tires for fun? dump oil in rivers and lakes? hah that'll those s**tters!

are your really going argue that PCV valves "maybe" a benefit to the world? You realize pretty much every engine running on earth is utilizing one right now and they are doing better than they ever did in the 50's. Just a heads up, the earth isn't round and the moon isnt made of cheese. Seriously you think every car should remove their PCV valves because they will all harm their engines from the use of a PCV valve? Do you read what you write?

every car maker, and pretty much everything since 1963 has no problem rerouting that tiny amount of blowby back into the intake.


No problem? They fought it. The SAE did not want to use it but was forced by law, starting in California. There is an article about that in a circa 1961 car magazine.
Yes, lefty, in the 50s people thought the earth isn't round and people were still living on trees. They only made it to the moon with 50s technology.

"Running better than in the 50s"? Are you kidding? For all this super efficiency you are going to pay for, repair bills and the need to buy a new car after about 10 years. To fix/replace a direct fuel injection system it not rarely costs 5+ K, or with other words the car is doomed. A rebuild kit for my carb is $25. When a car is produced it does the most harm to the invironment. During the time I drive my 60, my folks, neighbours, friends had to buy a new car every 5-12 years. My almost 60 year old Plymouth still runs like new (engine never rebuild, heads never been off, only the timing gear/chain replaced, $50) and you bet I know how to make a car run. You are just ignorant. Try to learn from my experience actually DRIVING these cars.

Try to start to THINK and do not believe and repeat everything brainlessly your liberal saints told you.
You are a perfect example of successful brainwashing and superficial "thinking".

Heat is not an issue for that small amount, fake news...


Thanks for another example of proving that you have no clue. At WOT and under load, blowby increases. And what seems "small" adds up and shows in reduced efficiency and power.

Again, even Wikipedia is stating the fact that a PCV can reduce power and performance. Got it? Are you really going to argue the laws of physics? Do you think before you write?

It is (quote) a "tiny" and "small" amount when it comes to its effects on engines, but kills the planet on the other hand? Can you decide?

So it all boils down to you have a problem putting that tiny amount of blowby gases back in the place where it belongs and you want to harm the environment and smell exhaust fumes, drip oil?


Hot exhaust gas belongs into the engine? Yes? You invented the perpetuum mobile. Just route the headers to the intake manifold.

I do not smell any blowby in my car. It's called firewall. "Harming the environment" with a car that lasts longer and runs more efficient?

I understand if the car is all original, that's 100% fine to run it, but dont try to bs people saying a downdraft tube is better than a PCV, its not and never will be.


No, you understand nothing, as always. A PCV is not better than a draft tube and it will never be, for above mentioned reasons.

Edited by 1960fury 2019-03-23 7:53 PM
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-03-23 10:05 PM (#579796 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: RE: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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In an effort to get this thread back on track and actually help the original poster with his question, this is what I did on my 318 that had a draft tube. I found a washer that had the same outside diameter as the post on the valve cover and an inner diameter that a common PCV valve grommet would fit into. I welded the washer to the valve cover and then inserted the grommet and PCV valve. Here is a picture of the setup.



(thumb_IMG_3525_1024.jpg)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-03-24 12:27 PM (#579822 - in reply to #579768)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318


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1960fury - 2019-03-23 4:19 PM. A PCV is not better than a draft tube and it will never be, for above mentioned reasons.

i can try to argue with stupidity... Its painful, its obvious your not a technical person since you have to be the only person on earth who cant see these plain and simple facts.

Of course the auto industry fights any form of regulation.. they fought head lights and seat belts, i suggest you take yours off right now!

I also like how your the only one who doesnt smell a downdraft car, i suggest you go back in time and tell everyone they were wrong.. You also ignored the oil drips...

Wiki didnt say it decreases performance they didnt mention anything(fake news), but talk to an drag racer, it actually increases performance and solves other issues.   Maybe your confusing an EGR with a PCV?

And yes that tiny little pipe is forcing 1000 cfm a minute through your engine. I suggest you throw out your compressor and fill your tires with a PCV valve then...

PCV quickly became standard equipment on all vehicles worldwide because of its benefits not only in emissions reduction but also in engine internal cleanliness and oil lifespan.

More benefits... oil life and engine cleanliness.

https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/pcv-good-or-bad-idea-for-a-performance-engine.39520/

yes on drag racing car they use large "evacuators"... because a pcv cant keep up, because they want to increase horsepower by doing essentially what a pcv does, they dont want any blowby and their engines are new but they still want the pressure in the crankcase to increase performance.

Positives for PCV

Oil life(moisture, acidity), oil usage, cleaner engine, backfires, cuts emmision by around half, increases horsepower, reduces oil leaks, passengers and the guys behind you don't breath fumes, no oil drips under car and im still missing some im sure..

Negatives

Needs very very simple maintainence, small costs

 

 

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1960fury
Posted 2019-03-24 5:11 PM (#579836 - in reply to #579822)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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mikes2nd - 2019-03-24 12:27 PM

i can try to argue with stupidity... Its painful, its obvious your not a technical person....


Talking about stupidity. How stupid has a person to be to believe heating the intake charge and replacing a part of the fuel/air mixture with non burnable CO2 and oil can increase performance? Simply impossible.

I have seen enough sooted, crusty intake valves only in the cylinder fed by the runner with the PCV connected. But I'm a mechanic with over 30 years of experience, not a little liberal smart ass with no clue, who repeats brainlessly things he heard.

The sooted intake valves from the PCV fed cylinder are a coincidence? How can that be of benefit for an engine? Pinging caused by sooted cylinders is good for an engine?
You are delusional.

"Not a technical person" from someone who does not understand the simplest things, denies simple laws of physics and thinks oil and hot exhaust gas should be routed into the cylinder. That is funny.

Again, unlike you I know what I'm talking about. I drive my car engine trouble free for over 30 years almost daily. It had already way over 100k miles on the clock when I bought it. It still runs like new, never rebuild, almost 60 years old and easily does 140+ mph. Nobody but me keeps it running. It wouldn't have lasted a year in your ignorant hands.

Edited by 1960fury 2019-03-24 5:34 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2019-03-24 5:30 PM (#579837 - in reply to #579822)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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mikes2nd - 2019-03-24 12:27 PM

More benefits... oil life and engine cleanliness.

https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/pcv-good-or-bad-idea-for-a-performance-engine.39520/



Did you really post that link? A car forum discussion? What is that suppose to prove? I can provide a link to the flat earth society or a conspiracy forum to prove zionist lizards living in the center of the flat earth were behind 9/11.

Is that link more credible than the Wikipedia one I provided? Again, you cannot change the laws of physics and sooted combustion chambers and intake valves are not beneficial for an engine.

mikes2nd - 2019-03-24 12:27 PM

Wiki didnt say it decreases performance they didnt mention anything(fake news),


I do not blame you for not understanding German, but if you don't, why are you claiming you can? Or are you just lying? Not very smart, as your BS can be read again and again. Maybe as a liberal smart ass you just like to talk nonsense? Weird.

Anyway, here is the copied Wikipedia quote:

"Das entwichene Gas wird daher beim nächsten Ansaugtakt wieder angesaugt und mitgeführte Öltröpfchen sowie unverbrannter Kraftstoff werden nachverbrannt. Durch die Einleitung der Verbrennungsgase in den Ansaugtrakt können Luftführung, Drosselklappe, Turbolader, Ventile usw. verschmutzen. Besonders bei Turbolader und der Ladeluftkühler kann es zu Leistungseinbußen und Störungen kommen"

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowby

Translated: The discharge of waste gas (blowby) into the intake runner can soil the intake runners, turbocharger, valves, etc. Especially with Turbochargers and intercoolers it can lead to loss of power and problems.

Especially=mostly but not solely.





Edited by 1960fury 2019-03-24 6:35 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2019-03-24 5:50 PM (#579839 - in reply to #579796)
Subject: RE: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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The factory made a PCV valve that fits into the filler tube on valve covers so equipped.



(PCV_in_Cap (Small).jpg)



(PCV Disassembled.JPG)



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Attachments PCV_in_Cap (Small).jpg (18KB - 16 downloads)
Attachments PCV Disassembled.JPG (157KB - 15 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-24 6:06 PM (#579840 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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That's what I use too John. They fit really tight on the valve cover.
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2019-04-10 4:52 AM (#580659 - in reply to #579796)
Subject: RE: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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jboymechanic - 2019-03-24 4:05 AM In an effort to get this thread back on track and actually help the original poster with his question, this is what I did on my 318 that had a draft tube. I found a washer that had the same outside diameter as the post on the valve cover and an inner diameter that a common PCV valve grommet would fit into. I welded the washer to the valve cover and then inserted the grommet and PCV valve. Here is a picture of the setup.

 

Thank you for your picture  friend!

I also would like to know where you hooked the other end of the hose, if possible... as I machined mine to a spacer under the carb but I am having some trouble at criuising speed. (Unless some other engine troble developed at the same time.....)

 

 

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wizard
Posted 2019-04-10 5:20 AM (#580660 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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The spacer under the carburator is the correct spot. Try to plug the nipple and see if the car runs as before - if so, then perhaps the PCV-valve opens too easy. If the car has the same behavior with plugged nipple, with the Engine in idle, try to spray some start gas around the carburetor base plate - if there is a leak, then the idle will raise.


Have a CO2 extinguisher close by if Murphys law will kick in...….
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-04-10 10:20 AM (#580671 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



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Wizard is correct, want to distribute the crank case ventilation to all cylinders, not just one. I eventually moved to a Edelbrock 1403 carb, which has a vacuum port in the throttle plate.
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2019-04-11 6:51 AM (#580711 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 369
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Location: Milano, Italy
Thank you Wizard.
I guess the weak spring is the most possible cause, as right before the mod the car run correctly.
Btw I will make he check you suggest.....
And yes I have always a fire estinguisher handy. It's in the trunk for any emergency.
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2019-04-15 12:16 PM (#580919 - in reply to #579433)
Subject: Re: PCV VALVE on a '58 Poly 318



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 369
1001001002525
Location: Milano, Italy
Done.
I found the trouble: the fitting on the spacer under the carb was loose. My fault.
I probably forgot to tighten it when I tried the hose lenghts.

The second test will be to try again the Summitracing Pcv valve.
I'll do it next days, as the weather gets better.
Now it is raining like hell
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