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60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-06 10:40 PM (#571239)
Subject: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Hi all

Any ideas as to why I get a pool of engine oil in the valley cover under the manifold.
This is after I mopped it out and requires cleaning up every few hundred miles.
TIA



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-06 10:41 PM
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wizard
Posted 2018-10-07 2:45 AM (#571247 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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A well known fact is that the 4-bolt valve covers needs to be perfectly straight, no "dimples" around the bolts, good quality gaskets for to not leak.

Check this fiirst of all...
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 2:57 AM (#571248 - in reply to #571247)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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wizard - 2018-10-07 5:45 PM

A well known fact is that the 4-bolt valve covers needs to be perfectly straight, no "dimples" around the bolts, good quality gaskets for to not leak.

Check this fiirst of all...


Yes, first thing I checked, new expensive gaskets installed too.
Theres is no leak around the covers.
It has been the same since Ive owned the car and that was my first thought but it does not appear to be the case and no change since cleaning up and new gaskets fitted.
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wizard
Posted 2018-10-07 3:24 AM (#571249 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Clogged ventilation? Check the oil filler cap and the evacuation pipe…


More farefetched, small rust hole in the valley pan
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 3:33 AM (#571250 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Im running a PCV on the right feeding into the manifold and an open breather on the left.

Hope its not a rust hole

Is very inaccessible to even have a good look
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-07 8:28 AM (#571254 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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VC leaks usually not into the valey pan but well known on BB is oil coming thru the intake bolt holes, mostly on the passenger side with a working heat riser. Easy cure. Other possible source is the edges on the valey pan gasket. You need to install it with some sealant.
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christine-lover
Posted 2018-10-07 10:26 AM (#571258 - in reply to #571254)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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If worst comes to worst, you can add dye to the oil and check with a detection light.
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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-07 11:15 AM (#571261 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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I'm with Sid on this one. Take the afternoon and redo the valley pan. If you prepare for that process then once the manifold comes off you'll most likely discover the leak.

(don't forget to follow up on what you discover and how you repair it. For posterity.)
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 4:20 PM (#571275 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Thanks guys.
Will try sealing the bolt holes and threads first.
Im really hesitant to disturb the manifold and valley cover unless absolutely necessary.
As we all know, before you know it, one thing always leads to ten more things

If that does not help then I might bite the bullet and remove the manifold and cover.
And then that will probably end up in a rebuild ......DOH!

For what its worth, I do not have a working heat riser.

Anyone know off the top of their heads what the torque spec is for the manifold bolts?

Thanks again
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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-07 4:57 PM (#571277 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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50 foot lb.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 5:22 PM (#571281 - in reply to #571277)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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ABloch - 2018-10-08 7:57 AM

50 foot lb.


Thanks
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-07 5:26 PM (#571282 - in reply to #571277)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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ABloch - 2018-10-07 4:57 PM

50 foot lb.


I could be wrong, but from what I remember it is 40 pounds. Follow the FSM sequence and do small steps, not the full torque at once. It is a dry manifold so it is not a big job and if yours still got the factory insulation, discard it and do not replace!

Checked, it is indeed 50 ft/lb, 40 is the recommendation from Mopar Performance for the aluminum manifolds.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-10-07 5:31 PM
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 5:41 PM (#571284 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Thanks for that.
What is the factory insulation you are referring to?

My first thought was to do one bolt at a time, clean and apply sealant without removing the manifold.
Not a good idea maybe???
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-07 5:55 PM (#571287 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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The insulation is the glass-wool stuff in the valley pan under the intake, mostly soaked with oil. The problem with sealing the bolt holes with sealant is, the holes are oily and you would have to clean them first, which requires removal of the intake or an oil change, if you flush them with brake cleaner. You may try sealing them with teflon tape, without cleaning (never tried that, but should work), but not sure how this would affect the torque specs.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-10-07 5:56 PM
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 6:09 PM (#571289 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Good idea with the tape.
I have nothing between the manifold and valley pan except fresh air.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-08 3:27 AM (#571309 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Ok, thanks for all the input. I really dont want to disturb too much, so, Ive taken all the bolts out one by one, cleaned and used some teflon tape on them and re-torqued them all.
All seemed like the had never been touched except for the rear most RHS which wasnt tight and for some reason had a spacer nut on it as well (just see it in the top of the pic).
I did check and it is the same length as all the other bolts so no idea what the intent of that was.
Just another discovered bodgy job I guess.
See how it goes now. Thanks for the help again

Just for curiosity, is there a direct replacement alloy manifold that works with the stock Carter?
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-08 3:45 AM (#571311 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Just about any 4-bbl 'square bore' intake will work.
Your Carter carb has smaller ports than the newer Carter/Edelbrock carbs.

It's only when you want to install a new carb on an older intake, when you have use a spacer or just slightly enlarge the bores.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-08 5:17 AM (#571315 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Im thinking, if I have to go as far as removing the CI manifold and valley cover, Ill replace it with something nice.

Sorry, a bit off track, but what about the choke setup on a different manifold?
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-08 6:06 PM (#571349 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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If you want to run a factory style choke, the only aftermarket intakes that I know of are the Edelbrock Performer, Holley Strip Dominator, and the Edelbrock six pack intakes. The first 2 use a choke from the mid 70's, and the six pack uses one from the late '60's. If you wish to use a different intake, you will need to use an electric choke.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-08 6:34 PM (#571350 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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The MP M1 dual plane manifolds have a oe choke well too. Good manifolds! But you wil have to fabricate a new choke rod. Not difficult but time consuming. I'm a big fan of divorced OE chokes and don't like e-chokes but this would be an easy switch.

Just checked, looks like only the low deck M1 version has the choke well, but I found this from Indy:

Edited by 1960fury 2018-10-08 6:44 PM




(indymfd.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments indymfd.jpg (80KB - 15 downloads)
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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-09 1:59 AM (#571371 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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I went with the Offenhauser. https://www.forcbodiesonly.com/mopar-forum/threads/offenhauser-intak...
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-23 5:42 PM (#572242 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Update....
Unfortunately the thread seal tape and re-torquing has made no difference, maybe even slightly worse.
50klm around the local area and there was a small pool of oil in the back of the valley.
It looks wosre than it is, less than a teaspoon of oil...

Looks like Ill have to think about removing the manifold and replacing the valley cover.

I will most likely use an new alloy manifold and retain the stock Carter and choke assembly if thats possible?.

Can someone provide a list of parts I would need to complete the job?
Im trying not to get caught out and discover Im missing parts to complete the job.

Thanks in advance.

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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-24 2:17 AM (#572259 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Marc, If you go with the M1 like Sid suggested or the Offenhauser the only thing you will need is a new carb base gasket, valley pan and some RTV. (usually comes in the kit w/ the pan) Bolts, linkage should all be the same. You don't even have to remove the valve covers. Follow the bolt pattern sequence for torquing it down after everything is finger tight. B and RB engines are really easy for manifold swaps. No coolant to deal with!

Andrew
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-24 5:51 AM (#572263 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Sounds good, thanks for that info.

Next Australian dilema....
My choices are very limited

Offenhauser is not available here
Mopar M1 is nearly $1000 here!

There is Holley Street Dominator single plane available here, not sure if this is the best choice for stock motor?

https://www.enginemaster.com.au/intake-manifold-street-dominator-single-plane-alum

The only option I have appears to be the Edelbrock Performer 440 ED2191 or possibly the ED7193 but from what I can see the 7193 does not accommodate the OEM Carter choke?
Hopefully I can find the non EGR version.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Performer-440-Intake-Manifold-BB-Chrysler-413-440-Idle-5500-rpm-Dual-Plane/232671839028

From what I get from the replies above, they are not a direct replacement for the standard choke arrangement? Is that correct?


With the valley pan, there appears two types

Fel-Pro FEMS96000 BB Chrysler 413-440 Intake Manifold Tub/Pan Gasket Set



and

Fel-Pro FE1215 Chrysler BB 413-440 Valley Pan Intake Manifold Gasket Set

 

Which is the correct one for the 413? What are all the additional bits?

Thanks again

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Shep
Posted 2018-10-24 7:56 AM (#572268 - in reply to #572263)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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As far as the pan goes, one has the heat riser passage blocked, the other does not. If you see a suitable carb with an electric choke or one that can be converted to electric, that may open your choices. Btw, as mentioned, a single plane manifold generally has poor street manners.

Edited by Shep 2018-10-24 9:10 AM
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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-24 11:19 AM (#572279 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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My advice... get the Fel-Pro FEMS96000 BB Chrysler 413-440 Intake Manifold Tub/Pan Gasket Set. Get a few of your favorite brews and just swap out the valley pan. All the alloy manifold is going to do is shave a few pounds off of your gross vehicle weight. You'll be up and running before you crack into the third brew.

Then you will have more time to track down the manifold you really want. That Offenhauser is still available BTW.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-24 2:34 PM (#572296 - in reply to #572279)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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ABloch - 2018-10-24 11:19 AM

My advice... get the Fel-Pro FEMS96000 BB Chrysler 413-440 Intake Manifold Tub/Pan Gasket Set. Get a few of your favorite brews and just swap out the valley pan. All the alloy manifold is going to do is shave a few pounds off of your gross vehicle weight. You'll be up and running before you crack into the third brew.

Then you will have more time to track down the manifold you really want. That Offenhauser is still available BTW.


And considering the fact, that all aftermarket aluminum manifolds are of very POOR quality with really bad core shift. That means, to get an actual performance gain, you will have to port-match the heads/manifold, which is not alot of fun and requires some time consuming grinding, as you will have to be very carefull with the heads on the engine. That said, up in front, you will feel every pound that you remove and the alloy manifolds are considerable lighter.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-24 4:23 PM (#572301 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Getting things to Australia can be a real headache and the cost of shipping is crazy!
I got some costs on shipping a manifold from the US and get between $120 and $200 and thats not even priority!
I had a new centre link sent over, total price was $120, by the time it landed with shipping and taxes, it cost me $400!

So Im pretty much stuck with whatever I can get here I think.

I was thinking that a new alloy manifold would be a nice facelift and (maybe) a bit of a performance improvement.

If I stick with stock it will take more time as I will need to get it blasted and then repaint as its looking pretty crap atm.
Im too OCD to put it back on looking so shabby.

Im still not sure whether the Edelbrock would be a direct replacement with regards to the choke?

I may have the opportunity to obtain an Edelbrock 750 CFM with electric choke at a good price, by our standards anyway, $350, used but never used!

Would this be a good choice?


May open up my options or am I wasting my time?




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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-24 5:45 PM (#572306 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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That carb will work but it is technically too many CFM's. 500-600 is a better match.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-24 5:48 PM (#572307 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Thanks, it did seem a little big for a stock motor.
But is that a problem?
Its just that its cheap at that price and will give me more options.

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-24 9:06 PM
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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-25 1:38 AM (#572329 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Problem? No. Not really. But I would anticipate an increase in fouled plugs and a decrease in your kilometers per liter. I'm sure you can put some smaller jets in it to lean it out a bit but I am not the guy to give advice on that.
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wizard
Posted 2018-10-25 3:41 AM (#572332 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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The formula is as follows
Cubic inches x max rpm / 3456. 3456 is a constant for 4 cycle engines. It is the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot multiplied by 2 since the crank has to spin 2 full revolutions in a 4 cycle engine to reopen the intake valve. This causes the final number

413 x 4500 / 3456 = 537 cfm

The Edelbrock carbs always seem to be to big.....

I would instead clean up the original carb and buy a repair kit https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chrysler,1960,new+yorker,6.7l+41...

I useually fix 3 - 5 carburator each year and so far every one is very pleased with the result.

I use an ultrasonic cleaner with a special detergent http://www.ultrasoniccleaner.co.uk/tickopur-r33-5-litre.html

Check for local suppliers - a liter would be more than enough (mixing ratio 5-10%)

Be careful with the choke housing - it's not aluminum, so clean it separately.....

You could buy an electrical choke as a spare part for an Edelbrock


Mind the height if you go for another manifold - the original air cleaner is actually on the limit.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-25 4:31 AM (#572333 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Thanks for all that info :-)

So what is the Carter actually rated at in CFM?

I do have an ultrasonic cleaner that I use on motorcycle carbs.
Its only 3 litre capacity but may be big enough to do the majority of the parts, maybe not the body itself though.

Are you saying that I could use an electric Edelbrock electric choke on the Carter?
That would be good if that is possible.

I think I will replace the valley cover and manifold with the Performer 440 ED2191, all the fasteners and studs and leave it at that.
Relatively cheap, simple, no down time to speak of and Im assured by the local supplier that the Carter and stock choke assembly "should" work fine.

Although I have my doubts from some of the posts above?

Theres nothing wrong with the Carter that I know of so maybe do the kit as you suggest and keep the costs down a bit too. :-)

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wizard
Posted 2018-10-25 5:29 AM (#572334 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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The Edelbrock is in fact an "El Cheapo" Carter - all the nozzles, valves springs and needles are exchangable.


Edelbrock carbs may have bad casting with internal leaks as a consequence.


I would be surprised if there is a difference in diameter between the Carter choke housing and the Edelbrock
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ABloch
Posted 2018-10-25 11:44 AM (#572345 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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If you take the number off of the tag or if there is no tag check the front of the carb along the base, left side when facing the engine. Take that number and do a little interweb search. I'm thinking 470-500cfm.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-25 1:01 PM (#572347 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Yes, the Edelbrock electric chokes will interchange with all Carter AFB's from 1958-up. Most people don't limit their motors to 4500 rpm. When they step on it, a 5500 rpm limit for the street is more normal. That would equate to 650 cfm, and real world losses that aren't taken into account bump it up to more like 700cfm or even bigger - especially if you have an RV or other improved cam in the motor. This is only if you want to realize the motor's potential and have a good free-flowing exhaust on it. The 392 hemi carbs were around 400cfm. With 2 of them, that equates to 800 cfm. This is a little big, but not terrible and the improved HP numbers on the dual quad motors show that the increase in cfm helped with power output.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-26 1:12 AM (#572380 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Just doing some number checking and my AFB appears to be a little rarer as its a 3108S with purely mechanical secondary with no weighted air valve.

It also doesnt have any drillings for a potential electric choke, as well as no vacuum port for it.

Info I found here.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/CarterFourBarrelCarburetors.htm




Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-26 1:21 AM
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wizard
Posted 2018-10-26 1:22 AM (#572381 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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That's a '61 413 carb and it looks fairly Clean which indicates that it has been repaired.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Kchrysler2.htm

Get the repair kit just to be sure and open it up….
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-26 1:26 AM (#572383 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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It does look in rather good condition....
The more I look the more I find that my car covers a few years!
The Astrodome is 62!
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-28 11:26 PM (#572544 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Manifold and other bits are here
Regarding the plugs and fittings in the manifold, is Teflon thread seal tape or HT sealant the preferred option?

 

But can someone tell me what these are for please?

 



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-29 12:58 AM
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-06 5:46 PM (#573068 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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So after the original manifold was removed and I got over the shock of what I found.... a 60 year old pizza by the look!


Its such a mess that it was impossible to really work out where the oil was coming from so onto the next step of removing the valley cover where I found not just one but two partially stripped threads

Helicoiled and cleaned up in this thread

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=70033&posts=19&start=1

In prep for reassembly, I painted the new manifold, cast aluminium is a nightmare to clean but painted makes for easy work

The original bimetal choke was a horrible mess but the ultrasonic cleaner, a bit of vinegar and some paint and its come up nicely

Whilst waiting for a few bits including all new fasteners and a carby kit I drilled and tapped the carb 1/8 NPT for an additional vacuum port (mine was blanked off) that I can use for either PCV or vacuum gauge for setting idle mixtures.



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-06 5:47 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2018-11-06 6:22 PM (#573071 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Don't expect the old choke to work with the new manifold. The choke well is located so elevated and away from the heat riser passage, the choke will stay on forever. Also noticed the dirty head ports. My guess, too rich, not properly jetted and/or because of the missing heat riser or short trips. The "pizza" is the stuff I told you about, factory insulation.
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-06 6:30 PM (#573072 - in reply to #573071)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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1960fury - 2018-11-07 9:22 AM

Don't expect the old choke to work with the new manifold. The choke well is located so elevated and away from the heat riser passage, the choke will stay on forever. Also noticed the dirty head ports. My guess, too rich, not properly jetted and/or because of the missing heat riser or short trips. The "pizza" is the stuff I told you about, factory insulation.


Oh :-(
Just when I thought everything was going great!!!

What can I do about the choke?

What do you mean, missing heat riser?

Im only doing long trips, minimum is 60 km's, the carb is stock but getting a rebuild when I get the parts.
It does look very wet in there.

Yeah, the pizza, I remember you mentioning the mat, I didnt think there was anything under there and the front bib kept it well hidden!
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-06 7:09 PM (#573075 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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The choke you need to work with that manifold is from a 70's 318 2bbl carb. Don't ask me why they chose that one, but that's what you need. You will need to modify the arm on it to make it work exactly where you want it. You can get a full thermal onlyl, thermal + electric assist, or high-grade version, all made by Standard.

Thermal only: CV162
Thermal + Electrical assist: CV163
high grade Electric assist: CV189

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CV-163-Electric-Chock/322992029490?hash=ite...


Edited by Powerflite 2018-11-06 7:14 PM
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-06 7:44 PM (#573078 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Posts: 167
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Location: Sydney
Thanks for that.
So my existing choke wont work properly because the cavity is open sided and wont get hot enough?
And these other chokes will work at the lower temps?
Is that what this is about?

None of those seem to be available in Australia, as usual

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-06 7:54 PM
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wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 1:18 AM (#573087 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Make a sheet metal cover for the side opening. Check that the butterfly valve in the right exhaust manifold works properly and if not, fix it. Then set the choke to a lean position - I think it'll work….
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 1:38 AM (#573088 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Posts: 167
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Location: Sydney

Ha ha
Funny you should mention that, its just what I was finishing off

 Hoping it will work too...

I dont have a butterfly in the exhaust :

 



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-07 1:39 AM
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wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 2:00 AM (#573091 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



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Posts: 11643
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Nice, without the butterfly valve it will take a long time before the heat rises in that well - set your choke to the most lean position that still Closes the choke valve and try...
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1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 2:06 AM (#573092 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


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Posts: 167
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Location: Sydney
For some reason its worked ok up until now.
Generally warms up and was completely off the choke within about 5 minutes so I guess it was working fine?

How do you set the choke to lean?
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wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 2:17 AM (#573094 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11643
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
The bimetal spring can be turned clockwise or anticlockwise by loosining the nut slightly.

You can see the scale, the reference dot, "L" and "R" - turn towards "L", retighten slightly and check that the choke valve closes, but with a minimum force
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