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My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please
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Mbc40
Posted 2017-12-08 4:05 PM (#553924)
Subject: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please


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I had a lot of engine problems with my 2 BBL carb. I finally decided to get a new manifold and but a 4 BBL on it. It is the 383 RB, now a friend is saying i should have changed the camshaft. I not trying to hotrod this car only make it more drivable. The old carb was a thermostatic choke that always screwed up. I but a Edelbrock 600 CFM carb on it with a electric choke. I don't understand where to hook up the the positive wire to. the instructions say not the coil. I have a generator and not a alternator. Please tell me what you think.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2017-12-08 4:35 PM (#553926 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Connect the electric choke to a 12 volt source that only has power when the ignition switch is turn to "on" or "run". There are usually unused terminals on the back side of the dash or the ignition switch itself. You'll have to do some searching with a voltage meter or continuity tester while switching the ignition on and off. Not hard to do, but awkward to get under the dash.

You don't need a new cam shaft and your carburetor is appropriately sized, many people go too big. See the carburetor CFM calculator below. You'd have to spin that old 383 up to 6,000 RPM to use for a full flow of 600 CFM.

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Carb_CFM_Calculator.html
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Viper Guy
Posted 2017-12-08 11:35 PM (#553944 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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I had a '69 Charger that came from the factory with a 383 2bbl (low block) and a 4bbl was later added. The engine bogged big time until a high performance cam was installed. But to be fair, my 4bbl was a 750 cfm and just dumped too much fuel too quickly at lower rpm that caused the bog. Maybe your 600 cfm will work just fine but if it doesn't, a cam might be your answer. Also I had to bump the timing to about 12 degrees advance with the HP cam instead of the standard 4 degrees. My car was equipped with a Torqueflite and a stock single point distributor.
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1960fury
Posted 2017-12-09 9:44 AM (#553964 - in reply to #553944)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Viper Guy - 2017-12-08 11:35 PM

I had a '69 Charger that came from the factory with a 383 2bbl (low block) and a 4bbl was later added. The engine bogged big time until a high performance cam was installed. But to be fair, my 4bbl was a 750 cfm and just dumped too much fuel too quickly at lower rpm that caused the bog.


this had nothing to do with the size of the carb. a 750 will be just fine on a 383 and "too much fuel" has nothing to do with cfm. my 383 B with a 2bbl cam burned rubber from standstill and propelled the car in 6 seconds to 60.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-12-09 10:56 AM (#553967 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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I wouldn't worry about making a cam change. The best 2 upgrades to your motor would be a good 4bbl carb and free flowing dual exhaust. If you don't have a good exhaust system (i.e. crappy single exhaust) then your carb change will not help your performance. When I first bought my completely stock '70 Satellite wagon, I thought there was something wrong with the transmission because the motor was in great shape, but the car just didn't move very well in 2nd gear. After messing with the trans and figuring out that wasn't the problem, I swapped to a 4bbl carb. That did almost nothing to help performance. Then I noticed the horrible kink in the stock single exhaust system where the 2 pipes came together. I swapped to dual exhaust and it felt like I was driving a different car. Huge difference.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-12-09 11:02 AM (#553968 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: RE: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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I forgot to ask, why do the instructions say not to connect the electric choke to the ignition line? Although I agree that it would be ideal not to pull current away from your coil, people have been hooking these things up this way for ages. If current supply to the coil is an issue for your car, I would be inclined to just change the ignition wire for a large gauge to draw more current, but still hook up the choke to the soil so that there is still only one wire you have to pass through the firewall.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-12-09 11:43 AM (#553971 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Electric Choke Info



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Mbc40 - 2017-12-08 4:05 PM The old carb was a thermostatic choke that always screwed up. I but a Edelbrock 600 CFM carb on it with a electric choke. I don't understand where to hook up the the positive wire to. the instructions say not the coil. I have a generator and not a alternator. Please tell me what you think.


I have an Echlin electric choke on my 56 Dodge D500 (came that way when I bought it). The relay is an Echlin 5 pin "potted" (no external pins, just wires coming out of the relay). I am also running a Pertronix ignition with a Pertronix Flamethrower coil which can handle the full 12V all the time (no need for the ballast resistor).

As for the voltage to the coil that comes from that relay to the coil, I simply jumpered around the ballast resistor (I left it mounted in the event I need to put my NOS dual point distributor in for some reason).

In the photo below, you can just see the Echlin relay behind the rad hose. The wires are inside an aftermarket woven nylon sheath. The 12V input wire to the relay is from the original harness (and not fused per say). You can also see that there are no wires electrically connected to the ballast resistor. If you look closely, you can also see a small red wire connected to the (+) post of the battery. That is the 12V feed to relay.



Here is a typical relay wiring diagram:



If you were to run a relay, you could trigger the relay off the 12V ignition wire on it's way to the ballast resistor and connect the other side of the relay to the battery, probably with a fuse going into the relay. As for amperage, I would go with a 30 amp relay. Probably overkill.

Found these installation instructions on the internet (eBay):

Solid State Electric Choke Kit #2439 Rochester & Holley 4BBL




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Viper Guy
Posted 2017-12-09 12:01 PM (#553972 - in reply to #553964)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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1960fury - 2017-12-09 8:44 AM

Viper Guy - 2017-12-08 11:35 PM

I had a '69 Charger that came from the factory with a 383 2bbl (low block) and a 4bbl was later added. The engine bogged big time until a high performance cam was installed. But to be fair, my 4bbl was a 750 cfm and just dumped too much fuel too quickly at lower rpm that caused the bog.


this had nothing to do with the size of the carb. a 750 will be just fine on a 383 and "too much fuel" has nothing to do with cfm. my 383 B with a 2bbl cam burned rubber from standstill and propelled the car in 6 seconds to 60.


Sorry to put a damper on your comment and I don't know what you are smoking but I know I don't want any of that stuff. 0 - 60 mph in 6 seconds with a 383 2bbl while burning rubber and not going anywhere?????? C'mon now, we weren't born yesterday!

And yes, too much fuel dumped in at one time will cause a bog especially at a standstill and/or low rpms- period!
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-12-09 12:16 PM (#553973 - in reply to #553972)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 12:01 PM
1960fury - 2017-12-09 8:44 AM
Viper Guy - 2017-12-08 11:35 PM

I had a '69 Charger that came from the factory with a 383 2bbl (low block) and a 4bbl was later added. The engine bogged big time until a high performance cam was installed. But to be fair, my 4bbl was a 750 cfm and just dumped too much fuel too quickly at lower rpm that caused the bog.

this had nothing to do with the size of the carb. a 750 will be just fine on a 383 and "too much fuel" has nothing to do with cfm. my 383 B with a 2bbl cam burned rubber from standstill and propelled the car in 6 seconds to 60.

Sorry to put a damper on your comment and I don't know what you are smoking but I know I don't want any of that stuff. 0 - 60 mph in 6 seconds with a 383 2bbl while burning rubber and not going anywhere?????? C'mon now, we weren't born yesterday!


We've had this 0-60 in 6 seconds conversation with 1960fury before. I don't know much about the metric system but I suspect the issue is DIN seconds are 20% longer than Imperial seconds.

And furthermore, for reasons not entirely clear, the DIN seconds get even longer after the consumption of beer by the story teller.

Previous discussion:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66049&...



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-12-09 12:18 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2017-12-09 12:58 PM (#553977 - in reply to #553972)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 9:01 AM
And yes, too much fuel dumped in at one time will cause a bog especially at a standstill and/or low rpms- period!


Yes, but "too much fuel" has nothing to do with CFM, that's what Sid was saying.

In reality, a carb that's too big is more likely to cause a bog because it can introduce too much air in a smaller engine and cause a lean bog.
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Viper Guy
Posted 2017-12-09 1:13 PM (#553979 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Yeah I've come to the conclusion that this guy ain't dealin' with a full deck at times and this just may be one of them.

But time is time regardless of where one is. However metric distance is Killometes and not Miles which favors the metrics. 80 KPH is 50 MPH so just maybe he is in the metric world with his numbers that we here in the states aren't used to.

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1960fury
Posted 2017-12-09 3:37 PM (#553991 - in reply to #553973)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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56D500boy - 2017-12-09 12:16 PM

Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 12:01 PM
1960fury - 2017-12-09 8:44 AM
Viper Guy - 2017-12-08 11:35 PM

I had a '69 Charger that came from the factory with a 383 2bbl (low block) and a 4bbl was later added. The engine bogged big time until a high performance cam was installed. But to be fair, my 4bbl was a 750 cfm and just dumped too much fuel too quickly at lower rpm that caused the bog.

this had nothing to do with the size of the carb. a 750 will be just fine on a 383 and "too much fuel" has nothing to do with cfm. my 383 B with a 2bbl cam burned rubber from standstill and propelled the car in 6 seconds to 60.

Sorry to put a damper on your comment and I don't know what you are smoking but I know I don't want any of that stuff. 0 - 60 mph in 6 seconds with a 383 2bbl while burning rubber and not going anywhere?????? C'mon now, we weren't born yesterday!


We've had this 0-60 in 6 seconds conversation with 1960fury before. I don't know much about the metric system but I suspect the issue is DIN seconds are 20% longer than Imperial seconds.

And furthermore, for reasons not entirely clear, the DIN seconds get even longer after the consumption of beer by the story teller.

Previous discussion:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66049&...

:)


yes, i remember, you are they guy that does not know how an anti sway bar works. if you don't know what you are doing, don't understand the simplest thing and can't even adjust a carb/engine properly don't assume other guys are equally stupid.

Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-09 3:52 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2017-12-09 3:43 PM (#553992 - in reply to #553979)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 1:13 PM

Yeah I've come to the conclusion that this guy ain't dealin' with a full deck at times and this just may be one of them.

But time is time regardless of where one is. However metric distance is Killometes and not Miles which favors the metrics. 80 KPH is 50 MPH so just maybe he is in the metric world with his numbers that we here in the states aren't used to.



yes, you are the guy that claims to be an "engineer" and that also does not understand the function of an anti sway bar. again, if you guys are too stupid to make a car go fast, don't assume others people are equally ignorant.



Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-09 3:52 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2017-12-09 3:47 PM (#553994 - in reply to #553972)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 12:01 PM


And yes, too much fuel dumped in at one time will cause a bog especially at a standstill and/or low rpms- period!


Again, this has nothing to do with CFM. if it "dumped in" too much fuel it was out of adjustment. your fault, not the carbs fault.

i ask you again, what kind of engineer are you?

and what do you mean by timing "standard 4 degrees". a big block is not supposed to be run a 4 degrees. most fsms call for 10° and you only adjust the FULL mechanical advance anyway. that is 38° which comes down to mostly 12 degrees at idle.

Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-09 4:32 PM
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Viper Guy
Posted 2017-12-09 4:27 PM (#553998 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Thank you for being so complimentary to a fellow Forward Looker. I'm sure you are feeling very good about yourself.

All I will say is that my education and experience cannot be taken away from me and I cannot argue with the success I have. You go your way and I'll go mine and I wish you good luck.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!




Edited by Viper Guy 2017-12-09 4:31 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2017-12-09 4:36 PM (#554001 - in reply to #553998)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 4:27 PM

Thank you for being so complimentary to a fellow Forward Looker.



you claimed i "ain't dealin with a full deck" so what do you expect? i just gave you an appropriate answer as i find it downright annoying if people call me a liar or someting only because they didn't do their homework and don't know what they are doing. don't blame that on me.

Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-09 4:40 PM
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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-12-10 7:29 PM (#554056 - in reply to #554001)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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lololol . . . .

You guys always manage to make me smile. Sometimes all y'all sound like an old married couple . . .

One of the things I love about this board is the diversity of it's membership - different backgrounds, locations, and outlooks on how things should be done. Sometime that requires sifting through differing opinions about how things work and what the best solution is, but for me I'm thankful there ARE so many guys willing to offer their input.

As a long time professional automotive tech I've probably forgotten more about cars and their technical systems than I ever imagined I'd know. But two important lessons have stuck - first, nobody knows everything, and the sooner you understand that a day where you didn't learn something is a day you weren't paying attention, the better off you'll be. And second, just because somebody doesn't know the textbook terminology, answers, or "accepted" definitions of how things work doesn't mean he can't make the dog hunt.

As far as the gentleman with the carb/cam/engine issue is concerned he really doesn't give anywhere near enough information for anyone to be diagnosing his concerns. All I get is that he is installing an aftermarket manifold/carb set-up and doesn't understand where to get power for his electric choke coil. That question was answered I believe.

He also has a friend who is recommending a cam change, but I don't see any reasons given for that recommendation. It's possible he has a severe throttle tip-in stumble which may be caused by a poorly functioning accelerator pump (likely in a 50 year old carb). But it's also possible he has more basic issues - like a valve that is sticking causing the engine to "bark" back into the intake when the throttle is whacked open - a pretty specific condition which many backyard mechanics assume is a worn camshaft because of the thousands of Chevrolet engines that wiped cam lobes and consequently made the exact same sound. I've seen plenty of big block Mopars with sticking valves after being stored/not running for times as short as a year.

I think replacing the carb/intake will address his carb related concerns, but I have to wonder if there is something more involved.


Gregg
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jboymechanic
Posted 2017-12-12 4:57 PM (#554180 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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I don't know as much about carburetors as I should, so correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand it, putting a carburetor that is too large (more CFM capacity that necessary) will make an engine, in general, have less throttle response.
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Viper Guy
Posted 2017-12-12 6:09 PM (#554187 - in reply to #554180)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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jboymechanic - 2017-12-12 3:57 PM

I don't know as much about carburetors as I should, so correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand it, putting a carburetor that is too large (more CFM capacity that necessary) will make an engine, in general, have less throttle response.


That's been my experience until I replaced the cam with a higher performance grind and advanced the timing significantly.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2017-12-12 9:35 PM (#554197 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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When you say timing, do you mean cam shaft timing or ignition?
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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-12-13 12:37 PM (#554222 - in reply to #554197)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Ignition.

Everything in an engine (in terms of modification for performance) is a trade-off. A larger carb will flow more CFM at W.O.T. and high rpm than a smaller carb due to physically larger bores and venturi. The trade off is that at lower engine (and therefore intake air column speeds) the carburetor "sees" less metering signal, and consequently tends to meter less fuel causing a momentary lean condition. In addition, because the column of air inside the carb is bigger, it takes longer to get it moving when the throttle is opened. So a bigger carb on an unmodified engine does tend to "bog" or have poor throttle response, with no significant increase in performance.

In order to take advantage of the airflow capabilities of the bigger carb you need to allow the engine to breath better. Obviously better exhaust, etc all comes into play, but a primary component is the camshaft. In order to use the airflow potential of the bigger carb the intake valves (and consequently exhaust valves - if it gets in it need to get out) need to allow more air into the engine. This is done with increased lift (higher lift equals bigger opening) and increased duration (open longer means more time to flow). Higher lift is limited by the physical conditions of the valvetrain - you can only open the valve so far before things start to bind or collide. Extended duration also has negative effects - because the valve timing events overlap (both valves open) increased duration tends to cause several negative effects at low speed - low manifold vacuum (which exacerbates poor metering signal to the carb), reversion (exhaust backflow into the intake) and the characteristic grumpy idle we all love.

To partially counteract these negative effects the ignition timing can be advanced at idle, and the idle speed increased. Advancing the timing raisees manifold vacuum and engine speed at idle, and because of overlap on long duration cams and the resultant "EGR" effect the engine can tolerate more advance at higher RPM (although most performance timing curves are relatively flat compared to stock).

So, bigger carbs want bigger cams to make more power, but sacrifice low end torque and throttle response to achieve this goal. This is traditional hot-rodding.

With modern cam profiles and valvetrain technologies (very high valve acceleration speeds allowing comparable flow numbers with less lift and duration) and fuel injection systems that don't rely on vacuum metering signals most of these issues have all but disappeared from street driven performance engines in the sub-500HP range.



Gregg
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57burb
Posted 2017-12-13 2:49 PM (#554238 - in reply to #553998)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 3:27 PM

Thank you for being so complimentary to a fellow Forward Looker. I'm sure you are feeling very good about yourself.


Hey buddy, you earned it...
Viper Guy - 2017-12-09 12:13 PM

Yeah I've come to the conclusion that this guy ain't dealin' with a full deck at times


--

As far as the carb and cam mismatch, I doubt it's an issue. Millions of engines were built in 2- and 4-barrel versions with the only difference being the intake manifold and carburetor.
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1960fury
Posted 2017-12-13 3:53 PM (#554241 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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as for "a bigger cam made the car more responsive" standing start? even with the smallest cam an engine idles way below its (cam timing) "sweet spot". thats why big cams need a stall converter (not available for the CI TF). a bigger cam usually makes an engine appear less responsive in normal driving. so boging during acceleration from a standstill is more likely to occur with a big cam.




Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-13 5:51 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2017-12-13 4:05 PM (#554243 - in reply to #553924)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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the INITIAL fuel metering when accelerating from a standstill has little to do with the size of the carb/cfm rating. many 600/750 carbs have the same diameter bore and only a diference in the ventury booster area. when accelerating from idle the accelerator pump does supply most of the fuel in the first second when boging occurs most of the time and it shoots usually below the ventury area. so in reality there is not a big differnce between a 600 and a 750 cfm carb. its all a matter of adjustments.
a bigger carb does not automatically supply more fuel, in fact, as John said, its more likely that its causing a LEAN condition.

Edited by 1960fury 2017-12-13 5:55 PM
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Viper Guy
Posted 2017-12-13 6:09 PM (#554259 - in reply to #554197)
Subject: Re: My 60 Chrysler Windsor HELP Please



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jboymechanic - 2017-12-12 8:35 PM

When you say timing, do you mean cam shaft timing or ignition?

Ignition timing.
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