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Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-23 10:43 PM (#553013)
Subject: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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While I am waiting for Stock Interiors (and ACC) to return the front carpet piece for my 56 Dodge (needed adjustment), I thought would celebrate the 2nd anniversary of my Nov. 23, 2015 open heart surgery (not kidding) with working on the sound deadening in the Dodge.

Previously, I had purchased Dynamat to put on my rear parcel tray (part of my stereo speaker install). http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64957&... I liked the material but the cost was nasty.

This is what I had purchased back then:



Subsequently when I started to rehab my driver's side access panel, I found an Eastwood product that was much cheaper and seemed to be better value. Not only did it have the butyl rubber and a foil, it also had a foam insulation. I thought that it would be perfect for up against the firewall. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66997&...

I bought this, Eastwood X-mat, High-profile (foam core, about 3/8" thick):



Between the two, I started a few weeks ago on the access panel, Dynamat where my feet will be and X-mat High Profile for the firewall bit:



In between, I have done the firewall in the Eastwood X-mat High profile mat and most of the front foot well areas (driver's and passenger side) with the Dynamat.

Yesterday, I used up the remaining Dynamat on the driver's side floor area and under where the front seat will mount (both sides). I also did the firewall areas beside the access panel and the top of the transmission hump with the high-profile X-mat.

Two things happened:

1. I learned that the High Profile X-mat doesn't want to bend and to go around curves (transmission humps), I needed to do it in segments
2. I ran out of Dynamat

Since I didn't like the price of the Dynamat (*IF* I could find it locally), I went back to the folks who sold me the Eastwood X-mat High Profile and bought some X-mat low profile:

This:



My plan is to use the high-profile X-mat on the flatter parts under the front seats and maybe under the rear seats, just to use it up. Where feet will be placed, I am using the X-mat low profile. I started in the back seat foot wells today and have gone a bit under where the front of the back seat bottom will be. I only got the one underseat (front passenger seat) panel done.

Overall I would say this:

1. When using either the Dynamat or X-mat low profile, where gloves. The Dynamat foil is quite thick and stiff and will cut you like a straight razor, you won't even notice the cut until you see the blood

2. Eastwood X-mat High Profile (foam core) is only good for flat or slightly curved surfaces. Probably why they show it inside doors. On the plus side, if you can use your wife's old bread knife, you can use it to bevel the edge of the foam core of the High Profile so it can be fit tighter to curved or sloped surfaces.

3. Compared to Eastwood X-mat low profile, Dynamat is probably the better of the two products. When "embossing" the X-mat low profile into the smaller floor pan groves in the rear footwell with the butt end of a putty knife, I ripped through the X-mat low profile's foil in a couple of spots. That did NOT happen with the Dynamat in the front footwells. The thicker Dynamat foil also cut me badly before I clued into the need for gloves.

4. Price-wise the Eastwood products are good value, at least in my opinion.

5. Compare prices locally with on-line prices, e.g. Amazon or Eastwood. I could have got the Eastwood Low Profile on-line for about 60% of what I paid today. But I wanted to do the job today rather than wait two weeks.

Tomorrow I plan to use the X-mat High-profile on the top of the transmission hump, under the driver's seat and under the rear passenger seat. All other areas still uncovered with be covered with X-mat Low Profile.

Carpet is due to be re-delivered by Nov. 30th. (Should be sooner)(I think)

Photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-24 1:12 AM




(SoundDeadeningNov23_2017_AllThreeMaterials.jpg)



(SoundDeadeningNov23_2017_FrontFootWellWithXMatThickAndDynamat.jpg)



(SoundDeadeningNov23_2017_RearFootWellWithXMatLowProfile.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments SoundDeadeningNov23_2017_AllThreeMaterials.jpg (222KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments SoundDeadeningNov23_2017_FrontFootWellWithXMatThickAndDynamat.jpg (232KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments SoundDeadeningNov23_2017_RearFootWellWithXMatLowProfile.jpg (219KB - 19 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2017-11-24 2:22 AM (#553014 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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I've seen that these modern materials has become more and more popular to use.

I wonder what will happen after some years of using the car in various weather conditions - the foam in those materials must surely bind water and moist without the possibility to vent and dry out, or, am I missing something?

I use bitumen mats where it's needed and the old jute mats material under the carpets - the water and moist will vent out easily.

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60 dart
Posted 2017-11-24 4:45 AM (#553015 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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probably nothing helps in humid conditions cept sahara type dry air --------------------------------------------later
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finsruskw
Posted 2017-11-24 8:29 AM (#553017 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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I'd be more concerned withy sweating under the stuff.
What is used in new cars these days??
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-24 8:33 AM (#553018 - in reply to #553014)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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wizard - 2017-11-24 2:22 AM
I wonder what will happen after some years of using the car in various weather conditions - the foam in those materials must surely bind water and moist without the possibility to vent and dry out, or, am I missing something?
I use bitumen mats where it's needed and the old jute mats material under the carpets - the water and moist will vent out easily.


The foam in the core of the X-Mat High Profile is a closed cell material, not unlike the blue polystrene foam board that is used in home construction, i.e. it does not absorb moisture.

My carpet set from Stock Interiors/ACC has synthetic "jute" backing that would absorb moisture (But could be removed and dried if necessary as I am NOT gluing it to the floor).

I don't intend to have my car out in the rain so the materials that I am adding are for sound and heat, not moisture control (but once I tape up the non-overlapping joints, they will serve as a moisture barrier).

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wizard
Posted 2017-11-24 9:05 AM (#553019 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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Thanks' for the clarification, since we're both technicians we'll understand each other well!

I use my car in all spring to autumn weather, so it will be exposed to a lot of water. The undercarriage is washed every Winter and eventual chip damages repaired.

After each "bath", I start the dehumidifier in the garage with all the doors, trunk and hood open - that gains a gallon of water typically.

In this case I'm more old school, otherwise I'm open to improvements

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ronbo97
Posted 2017-11-24 10:39 AM (#553025 - in reply to #553019)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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I just don't get the whole dynamat/sound deadener craze.

If we are talking about sound, what sound is coming from underneath the car ? Just the driveshaft turning, hopefully. Regarding heat, as you drive, there is a breeze that cools off anything that may get hot. But when you think about it, the only heat generated is from the engine. Unless you are stuck in traffic when it's 110 degrees outside and the asphalt is melting. But even then, the carpet and padding do a good job at blocking out heat.

So can someone explain this to me ?

Ron

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71charger_fan
Posted 2017-11-24 11:05 AM (#553026 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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I just ordered a box of Xmat from Eastwood taking advantage of their Black Friday sale.
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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-11-24 11:44 AM (#553030 - in reply to #553025)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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ronbo97 - 2017-11-24 10:39 AM

I just don't get the whole dynamat/sound deadener craze.

If we are talking about sound, what sound is coming from underneath the car ? Just the driveshaft turning, hopefully. Regarding heat, as you drive, there is a breeze that cools off anything that may get hot. But when you think about it, the only heat generated is from the engine. Unless you are stuck in traffic when it's 110 degrees outside and the asphalt is melting. But even then, the carpet and padding do a good job at blocking out heat.

So can someone explain this to me ?

Ron



I have yet to use these materials on a car of my own, so hopefully someone who has can confirm their results. However, my understanding of the materials in question is this - the application of sound deadener of this type has two effects. First is it dampens the drum-like quality of any sheet metal panel. Even after something like a door or floor panel is stamped with various features the panel still acts like a drum-head to some degree, creating low frequency noise. By applying a heavy/dense material to the inside of the panel this low frequency noise is reduced. While not exactly the same generic sheets, material such as this is used extensively in new cars for just this reason - BMW products are loaded with it on the floor pans, doors, quarter panels, and even roof panels on some cars. Second, there is some sound insulating quality to the material, which dampens road noise which is primarily generated by tire to road contact and engine/driveline noise reflected off the road surface. Yes the jute backing on older carpets does the same, but like insulation for heat more is better. Also keep in mind that this material can be installed on vertical and overhead surfaces as well, blocking noise generated by other vehicles and airflow around the vehicle, unlike a carpet pad.

The heat insulation is simply an added feature. The materials used by the OEMs generally don't have the foil backing. When the aftermarket companies developed these products for retail I suspect that the foil became a way to simplify production of a standardized sheet, and the added benefit of heat reflection is secondary. As far as the importance of heat exclusion you should keep in mind a few salient facts - first not all vehicles are always in motion, and the heat load of a vehicle idling in traffic is immense. You're talking about engine, transmission, exhaust (or two) and in some cases catalytic converters, turbochargers, and other high heat components, as well as latent heat and heat being radiated from the road surface. It is not uncommon to see engine compartment temperatures in excess of 800 degrees under the worst conditions. Second, while not often on the minds of owners of older cars such as these, any heat exclusion you can do greatly improves the relative performance of the A/C system. With newer refrigerants becoming less and less efficient, the ability of a system designed for R-12 to effectively cool a vehicle interior is substantially compromised, so reducing heat load helps a lot.

You have to keep in mind that like many modern materials and components these items weren't installed on our cars way back when NOT because they weren't needed, but because they simply didn't exist. Had they been available I have no doubt they would have been used.

I do agree about concerns regarding water intrusion/retention underneath these materials. On a factory install everything is clean, dry, and fresh, and the material self-seals tot he panels, excluding moisture. In this situation we're dependent on our own methods to clean, dry, seal, and protect the underlying sheet metal.


Gregg
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-24 12:30 PM (#553033 - in reply to #553030)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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LostDeere59 - 2017-11-24 11:44 AM
I have yet to use these materials on a car of my own, so hopefully someone who has can confirm their results. However, my understanding of the materials in question is this - the application of sound deadener of this type has two effects. First is it dampens the drum-like quality of any sheet metal panel. Even after something like a door or floor panel is stamped with various features the panel still acts like a drum-head to some degree, creating low frequency noise. By applying a heavy/dense material to the inside of the panel this low frequency noise is reduced. While not exactly the same generic sheets, material such as this is used extensively in new cars for just this reason - BMW products are loaded with it on the floor pans, doors, quarter panels, and even roof panels on some cars. Second, there is some sound insulating quality to the material, which dampens road noise which is primarily generated by tire to road contact and engine/driveline noise reflected off the road surface. Yes the jute backing on older carpets does the same, but like insulation for heat more is better. Also keep in mind that this material can be installed on vertical and overhead surfaces as well, blocking noise generated by other vehicles and airflow around the vehicle, unlike a carpet pad. Gregg


On the topic of the "drum" effect, I previously used Dynamat inside my driver's door to kill the tinny "boing" that resulted *AFTER* I removed all the factory tar coating on the back of the outer door skin:

56D500boy - 2017-07-13 10:50 AM
Yesterday, now that my engine bay has been "betterified" ( = made to look better than when I bought the car), I got back to the door, to install new window tracks and cat's whiskers. First job was to kill the steel drum sound of the door. I had some real Dynamat from my rear parcel shelf project so I cut one of those pieces on the length, removed the paper backing and worked the pieces into the door through the big opening and then reached through the small opening to grab the other end to manipulate the pieces into place. The butyl rubber tried to stick on its own but it was easily pulled off and the position readjusted until I was happy. Then I just pressed the dynamat down by hand. Pull two of those half strips and a smaller scrap strip in. Steel drum sound is gone and the door shuts with a nice THUNK. (Instead of a big BOIIINNNGGG)

WARNING: The skin of the Dynamat is a thin metal and it will cut you (I only felt the cut later when I washed up for supper). Wear gloves (at least latex) when handling the Dynamat.


REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64336&...

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ronbo97
Posted 2017-11-24 1:13 PM (#553037 - in reply to #553030)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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LostDeere59 - 2017-11-24 11:44 AM I have yet to use these materials on a car of my own, so hopefully someone who has can confirm their results. However, my understanding of the materials in question is this - the application of sound deadener of this type has two effects. First is it dampens the drum-like quality of any sheet metal panel. Even after something like a door or floor panel is stamped with various features the panel still acts like a drum-head to some degree, creating low frequency noise. By applying a heavy/dense material to the inside of the panel this low frequency noise is reduced. While not exactly the same generic sheets, material such as this is used extensively in new cars for just this reason - BMW products are loaded with it on the floor pans, doors, quarter panels, and even roof panels on some cars. Second, there is some sound insulating quality to the material, which dampens road noise which is primarily generated by tire to road contact and engine/driveline noise reflected off the road surface. Yes the jute backing on older carpets does the same, but like insulation for heat more is better. Also keep in mind that this material can be installed on vertical and overhead surfaces as well, blocking noise generated by other vehicles and airflow around the vehicle, unlike a carpet pad. The heat insulation is simply an added feature. The materials used by the OEMs generally don't have the foil backing. When the aftermarket companies developed these products for retail I suspect that the foil became a way to simplify production of a standardized sheet, and the added benefit of heat reflection is secondary. As far as the importance of heat exclusion you should keep in mind a few salient facts - first not all vehicles are always in motion, and the heat load of a vehicle idling in traffic is immense. You're talking about engine, transmission, exhaust (or two) and in some cases catalytic converters, turbochargers, and other high heat components, as well as latent heat and heat being radiated from the road surface. It is not uncommon to see engine compartment temperatures in excess of 800 degrees under the worst conditions. Second, while not often on the minds of owners of older cars such as these, any heat exclusion you can do greatly improves the relative performance of the A/C system. With newer refrigerants becoming less and less efficient, the ability of a system designed for R-12 to effectively cool a vehicle interior is substantially compromised, so reducing heat load helps a lot. You have to keep in mind that like many modern materials and components these items weren't installed on our cars way back when NOT because they weren't needed, but because they simply didn't exist. Had they been available I have no doubt they would have been used. I do agree about concerns regarding water intrusion/retention underneath these materials. On a factory install everything is clean, dry, and fresh, and the material self-seals tot he panels, excluding moisture. In this situation we're dependent on our own methods to clean, dry, seal, and protect the underlying sheet metal. Gregg

No doubt that this material is a boon to modern cars, with their 24/26 ga sheet metal, turbo chargers, A/C systems, catalytic converters, etc.  For our older cars with 18/20 ga metal, it is superfluous, IMHO.

Never heard the 'drum effect' you mention, probably because floorboards are stamped to promote structural rigidity and to reduce noise. Next time you have the carpeting out of your car, try banging on the floorboard to see if you can replicate what you describe.

If your engine compartment exceeds 800 degrees, then the paint would be blistering on your hood and components would be melting. Whatever heat that is generated by the engine is blocked from the passenger compartment by the firewall.

Excessive heat or noise has never been a problem for me. And I've owned my FL car for almost 30 years.

Disagree with your statement that the only reason these materials weren't used back in the day was that they didn't exist. The carpet padding and heavy undercoating were quick and inexpensive solutions. This material is not cheap, either at the wholesale or retail level. So it would've added $$$ to the final cost of our cars when new. The benefit would not have justified the cost.

Ron

 

 

 

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ronbo97
Posted 2017-11-24 1:19 PM (#553038 - in reply to #553037)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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56D500boy - You may have a point about the door. It would be like a hollow can (even though likely thicker 18ga, rather than the thinner 20ga used in 57-up) if you removed all the factory undercoating. But wouldn't it be cheaper to reapply fresh undercoating than to use expensive dynamat ?

Ron

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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-11-24 2:34 PM (#553041 - in reply to #553037)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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"No doubt that this material is a boon to modern cars, with their 24/26 ga sheet metal, turbo chargers, A/C systems, catalytic converters, etc. For our older cars with 18/20 ga metal, it is superfluous, IMHO."

Is it a necessity - no. Have other people used the modern materials and felt it made an improvement - yes.


"Never heard the 'drum effect' you mention, probably because floorboards are stamped to promote structural rigidity and to reduce noise. Next time you have the carpeting out of your car, try banging on the floorboard to see if you can replicate what you describe."

It isn't that the panels sound like a drum, it's that they reverberate due to vibrations induced outside the vehicle. Pounding on the floor won't display the effect, unless you can pound at the required frequency. And as I originally pointed out, you can't put jute backing in your doors or on the roof.


"If your engine compartment exceeds 800 degrees, then the paint would be blistering on your hood and components would be melting. Whatever heat that is generated by the engine is blocked from the passenger compartment by the firewall."

I didn't pull that number from thin air - that is a documented target number for under hood parts survivability, and I reference it only as a comparative issue. This is also not a condition that exists while running - instead these peak numbers occur during "hot soak", while a car is sitting still after shut-down with no airflow or circulation of cooling media. Will your car, or any other FL car see it - doubtful. As far as the firewall "blocking" heat - are you aware that steel has excellent thermal conductivity, and that the thermal protection it offers is both short term and largely provided by it's ability to conduct concentrated heat to other areas of the structure - namely the floorpan - and radiate the conducted heat over a large area - namely the interior and underside of the car? Ever slap your hand on the "cold" side of a steel heat shield? Or on the inside of an uninsulated firewall?


"Excessive heat or noise has never been a problem for me. And I've owned my FL car for almost 30 years."

Nobody ever said this was an issue of "excessive" heat or noise - again, it's a matter of personal choice to take advantage of newer technology to make what the individual feels is an improvement. Kinda like adding FM to our old AM radios. (Not even gonna mention aux inputs or Bluetooth here . . .)



"Disagree with your statement that the only reason these materials weren't used back in the day was that they didn't exist. The carpet padding and heavy undercoating were quick and inexpensive solutions. This material is not cheap, either at the wholesale or retail level. So it would've added $$$ to the final cost of our cars when new. The benefit would not have justified the cost."

As a matter of fact most currently manufactured vehicle don't use heavy tar based undercoat/insulation in favor of these more appropriate materials. I suspect if you took the time to:
A) Determine the actual cost per vehicle of the "old" methods you champion
B) Calculate what the actual cost per vehicle of that method would be today - including all the necessary environmental costs such as disposal, containment, equipment maintenance,
PPE for the application personnel, etc
C) Determine the actual cost per vehicle of the modern methods and materials (remember, BMW ain't buying Dynamat at retail prices)
D) Use the above information to do a real "apples to apples" comparison instead of just guesstimating based on the belief that new is bad
you might be surprised to find that not only is the new material better at the same job, but may well be less expensive as well.


I'm not trying to change your mind here - I'm well and thoroughly aware that many members of this board have many years of hands-on experience, and a head full of old school ideas, all of which add up to a certain viewpoint on things. Those ideas and viewpoints are all valid, especially in relation to the cars in question here, and I respect the time, experience, and willingness to share that resource this board represents.

However . . .

Some of us, and many enthusiasts throughout the automotive hobby, feel that there is merit to borrowing new technologies and applying them to our old tech vehicles. As someone who is intimately associated with some of these new technologies I offer my knowledge, and opinions, when I think they are relevant to the discussion.

That is especially true when someone says something like "I just don't get the whole dynamat/sound deadener craze. So can someone explain this to me ?"


Gregg


Edited by LostDeere59 2017-11-24 2:41 PM
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brdtee
Posted 2017-11-24 3:49 PM (#553049 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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I'm not a specialist of any degree in this subject but I have experiences of a old 50s cars with and without sound deadening. When you have these new materials properly installed it makes a big difference to the overall feeling of driving and also it makes a different impact on how doors sound when you close them. They feel like a vault doors or new premium class car doors.

I'm still planning to use some modern sound deadening materials for the floor pan, doors and maybe even the roof under the headliner. The thing that worries me is the humidity and what happens under these tight waterproof materials.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-24 4:00 PM (#553050 - in reply to #553049)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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brdtee - 2017-11-24 3:49 PM The thing that worries me is the humidity and what happens under these tight waterproof materials.


*IF* you overlap the butyl bits where possible and tape the sections that are just butted against each other and the final edges with mylar or aluminum tape, how is the humidity going to reach the car's metal through the "tight waterproof materials"?

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sermey
Posted 2017-11-24 4:17 PM (#553052 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: RE: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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As already shown in my thread "Make-up..." I coated all surfaces with automotive anti roar panels PSK-40: total weight 25-30 kg.

Specs: Modified bitumen-based automotive, thickness of 3,0 mm, size 50 x 40 cm, weight approx. 4.5 kg/m2, damping factor Rw = 22dB.
 
One side self-adhesive anti roar panel with anti block coating made of PE.
Sound deadening, soundproof, vibration-resistant, reduces air-borne noise and resonance phenomena, reduces the vibration and prevent the so-called
roaring for thin-walled metal constructions. By heating the plate even on uneven surfaces can be adjusted.  - SERGE -

 





(01 Anti Roar Panels PSK-40.jpg)



(02 Behind Rear Back Seat.jpg)



(03 Inside Rear Quarter.jpg)



(04 Mounts Chevron Emblem.jpg)



(05 Rear Wheel House.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 01 Anti Roar Panels PSK-40.jpg (74KB - 26 downloads)
Attachments 02 Behind Rear Back Seat.jpg (100KB - 24 downloads)
Attachments 03 Inside Rear Quarter.jpg (87KB - 26 downloads)
Attachments 04 Mounts Chevron Emblem.jpg (73KB - 27 downloads)
Attachments 05 Rear Wheel House.jpg (117KB - 24 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2017-11-24 4:21 PM (#553054 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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Moist forms on the inside of the body and drips down practically from every possible angle.

This is like the new idea of water proofing bathrooms by adding a plastic bag on walls and floors that actually moves........


Use a dehumidifier every once and awhile in the garage and I think it would dry up even this modern material if the car is not exposed for too much heavy rain and temperature differences.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-27 8:03 PM (#553259 - in reply to #553050)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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Turned out to be a dry day (but not warm). I got the old girl outside and stuck my 1500 W ceramic heater inside while I had lunch. By the time I had eaten, the inside was all warm and toasty, so I carried on with the attachment of the X-mat high profile (foam core) to the transmission tunnel/hump top and sides and under the drivers seat (previously I had done under the passenger seat). To do the hump, I cut strips of the X-mat and beveled the edges as needed. This was true for both the sides of the hump and the rear section. For the sides, I went with long strips. For the rear section, I with shorter strips going up and over the hump and then small triangles, etc. as needed to get the coverage. When I was happy, I sealed the edges/areas with foil duct tape. I got the passenger side done but still have to put a bit more X-mat and all the foil tape on the drivers side.

My carpet is in Portland so it should be delivered by Wednesday. Which is good because I have at least a few more hours of work on the front area to finish before then.

I am just about out of the foam core X-mat and not sure *IF* I want to buy more for *UNDER* the rear seat. I have part of a low-profile X-mat sheet and four full sheets left. I only need to save three full sheets, one for inside each of the doors that I have yet to open up (read "Can of Worms").

Oh yeah:

*ALWAYS WEAR GLOVES WHEN HANDLING THE DYNAMAT OR X-MAT LOW PROFILE* \

(Apparently I didn't hear myself because when I got a sheet of X-mat low profile out of the house to work with today, I cut myself nicely (ouch)when I was placing it into the car and I bumped the sheet into the B-pillar and it twisted in my bare hands and cut me like a knife - DUH)

Some photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-27 9:00 PM




(SoundDeadeningNov27_2017_ApplyingHighProfileX_MatToTheMainSectionOfTheTransmissionHump.jpg)



(SoundDeadeningNov27_2017_ApplyingHighProfileX_MatToTheRearOfTheTransmissionHumpPassengerSide.jpg)



(SoundDeadeningNov27_2017_ApplyingHighProfileX_MatToTheDriversSideOfTheTransmissionHumpAndUnderTheSeat.jpg)



(SoundDeadeningNov27_2017_ApplyingHighProfileX_Mat_PassengerSideFoilTaped_1.jpg)



(SoundDeadeningNov27_2017_ApplyingHighProfileX_Mat_PassengerSideFoilTaped_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments SoundDeadeningNov27_2017_ApplyingHighProfileX_MatToTheMainSectionOfTheTransmissionHump.jpg (248KB - 23 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-12-06 7:46 PM (#553825 - in reply to #553054)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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Just a couple of shots to show basically as much as I am likely to do - other than seal the edges all round with the aluminum foil tape.

I took these just before I tried the revised carpet in the car.





(DaveFs56DodgeDec6_2017JustBeforeTryingTheCarpetAgain_1.jpg)



(DaveFs56DodgeDec6_2017JustBeforeTryingTheCarpetAgain_2.jpg)



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GaryS
Posted 2017-12-06 8:05 PM (#553827 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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I've applied sound deadening products to a '64 Valiant convertible and a '73 Dodge D100 that I bought new. The truck was terribly noisy, but the only deadening material from the factory was carpet and backing. After installing the aftermarket products on all metal surfaces, it's now nearly as quiet as a modern truck.

I'm totally convinced, so my '56 Plymouth is getting both a vibration dampening product and a noise absorbing foam sheet, along with more carpeting and carpet padding. Even the roof will get a vibration dampening material, and no, it doesn't have to cover the entire surface to accomplish the job. The floor gets both types on the firewall and over the hump.

Edited by GaryS 2017-12-06 8:19 PM




(Roadkill on roof.jpg)



(Tach Installed 3.jpg)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-12-06 9:47 PM (#553831 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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looks great, im going to do mine eventually...
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SENIX
Posted 2017-12-07 9:00 PM (#553876 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Rust


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Let us not forget RUST NEVER SLEEPS.


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56D500boy
Posted 2018-03-13 10:58 AM (#559800 - in reply to #553825)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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Well apparently it's been three months since I worked on the installation of my ACC/Stock Interiors carpet. If you remember (why would you?), the front piece had to be remade by ACC (which they did - for free) and when it was returned the carpet padding was NOT glued to the back of the carpet - which makes playing with the carpet much easier. The rear piece was fine (it still has its padding glued to the back of the carpet).

The carpet issues thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66208&...

When I applied the sound deading material - the waffle finish foam-core X-mat and the Mastic/foil Dynamat/non-foam core X-mat, I didn't want the foam core under the feet area (because it isn't memory foam per se). I think that I decided that I would put the carpet padding over the Dynamat but not over the foam core X-mat in the front foot well or on the hump.



However, when it came down to starting to install the "loose" padding yesterday, I changed my mind and decided to cover all of the front foot wells (well at least on the passenger side) and the front portion of the hump. I am doing it in halves starting on the passenger side. I will apply it on the driver's side but I will apply it such that the inspection panel will be removable without major carpet padding surgery, i.e. I will cover the fixed and removable sections separately.

Inspection panel post: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66997&...

I started by laying the loose but untrimmed padding down over the footwell and hump. After pushing and nudging it I found a position that I was happy with and started to trim the padding. I used a thick black Sharpie marker to mark where I needed to cut and then cut the padding with ordinary scissors. I made a cut on the top of the hump so I can deal with the driver's side separately (hopefully this week). After the cutting and a bit of adjustment trimming, I lightly glued the padding to the X-mat/Dynamat with a light spray of 3M Super 77 adhesive (same stuff I had used on my driver's door panel).



Door panel thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64288&...

There is a logic in the order of gluing stuff down. I had "A" logic and it worked, but there was awkward bit at the end that I wished I had done better. Not to worry. The padding is down. I purposely left it loose in the 1"-2" along the edge of the kick panel and door jamb so I can run my speaker wire and my factory dual antenna to radio cable that I got off eBay in the fall.

Here are the unbelievably exciting photos of the carpet padding install.





Edited by 56D500boy 2018-03-13 11:07 AM




(TrialLayingOfLooseACCCarpetPaddingInA_56Dodge.jpg)



(CutAndGluedLooseACCCarpetPadding.jpg)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-13 11:44 AM (#559805 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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moisture cant form under the rubber sheets because there is no air trapped between the panel and the butyl sheet... if you have a hole underneath that's a problem

I got a pad from Summit, I got an order of Noico sound proofing to see how it was, looks good and didn't stink.

Its about the same probably as eastwood. the 80 mil is the thickest they have.

Lets not forget about spray on sound deadening. I got quietcar which is amazing stuff, half price to lizard skin.

Spraying it on is a whole beast on its own though.
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ronbo97
Posted 2018-03-13 12:29 PM (#559809 - in reply to #559805)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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56D500boy - How much did that X-mat end up costing you ? I heard that stuff is pretty expensive.

Ron

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imopar380
Posted 2018-03-13 1:02 PM (#559810 - in reply to #553025)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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ronbo97 - 2017-11-24 7:39 AM

I just don't get the whole dynamat/sound deadener craze.

If we are talking about sound, what sound is coming from underneath the car ? Just the driveshaft turning, hopefully. Regarding heat, as you drive, there is a breeze that cools off anything that may get hot. But when you think about it, the only heat generated is from the engine. Unless you are stuck in traffic when it's 110 degrees outside and the asphalt is melting. But even then, the carpet and padding do a good job at blocking out heat.

So can someone explain this to me ?

Ron



I once drove a restored car (a full sized 1967 Dodge Monaco hardtop) long distance on the freeway that originally had been factory undercoated, and had the usual sprayed on coating on the floor interior plus the jute padding and carpet. The car was totally stripped to bare metal, and the restorer didn't re-undercoat the car, nor was the interior floor re-coated, just left as painted steel on both sides with new carpet and jute backing. He used to put a mirror under the car at shows to show off how clean and shiny it was underneath. The only thing deadening the sound was the new carpet and underlay. The road noise inside that car on the highway was awful. To give a comparison, my 1960 Chrysler has the original factory applied undercoating on the chassis, ( has been cleaned and touched up in spots) including the rear fender wells. The interior floor also still has the original thick spray on coating, and the original jute below the newer carpeting. It's all in remarkable original condition (a SOCal car). The firewall is well insulated as well. There's no comparison between the noise on those two cars. My Saratoga is virtually silent to road noise and engine noise. With the windows up the only outside noise you really hear is wind noise from each side of the car basically above 50 MPH. I would never restore a car without some kind of undercoating and floor sound deadener.
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ronbo97
Posted 2018-03-13 1:41 PM (#559811 - in reply to #559810)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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Ian - To be fair, you'd have to take both cars over the same stretch of highway to observe differences between the noise levels. But I'm not denying the role of sound deadener in keeping the passenger compartment quiet.

I think that there are cheaper solutions to this problem that will yield similar results, or at least acceptable results. I have no idea what this stuff ended up costing 56D500boy. That's why I asked. I imagine he's put out 400-500 total, when a few cans of spray-on stuff would give you good results at a fraction of the cost.

I have to do this to my 55 Desoto before I install carpet. So I'm curious as to what spray-on or brush-on undercoating product you would recommend.

Ron

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-03-13 2:45 PM (#559813 - in reply to #559809)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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ronbo97 - 2018-03-13 12:29 PM
56D500boy - How much did that X-mat end up costing you ? I heard that stuff is pretty expensive./Ron


LOL. Do you mean I'm supposed to be keeping track of what I spend on the old girl? Yikes.

BUT as it happens, I have some memory (and VISA bills) to let me pull some numbers out the air.

First thing to know is that I am in Canada so all my costs on this are in Canadian dollars (about US$0.80 on a good day).

Second is when I want something, I want it and don't have the patience to buy on-line and wait for delivery. I have a few local locations that cater to the old car nuts and if I can find it with them, I will likely buy it even if I know there are cheaper prices on-line.

1. The first thing I bought was Dynamat Xtreme for my rear speaker project.

"Dynamat Xtreme is a black butyl based core with 4 mil aluminum constrain layer, and craft paper release liner."

I bought a package locally with 20 ft2 for CDN$199 taxes in (about $10 a square foot) (but I held my nose and paid because I didn't know about the alternatives at the time)

"SKU: 19405 Contents: (5) 18?x 32? (457mm x 812mm) pieces of Dynamat Xtreme Total Coverage: 20 ft² (1.85 m²)"

http://www.jegs.com/i/Eastwood/352/15828/10002/-1



2. After doing some searching both on-line and locally, I "lucked" into some Eastwood X-mat High Profile (with the foam core and mastic).

"X Mat High Profile Mats are developed specifically for superior sound and heat absorption where a lightweight, high profile mat is needed. Ideal for door panels, under carpeting, under dash and trunk wells. Max temp 300 F and a decibel reduction as much as 17 db or 20%. Includes 4 sheets 31.5 In. x 18 In. x 3/8 In. covering 15.75 sq ft."

It was on clear-out and I paid something like $48 plus taxes locally (about $3/ft2). I don't see it now at Eastwood but Jegs has some for US$99 a box. http://www.jegs.com/i/Eastwood/352/15828/10002/-1

It is very messy to cut because the black mastic is very soft and sticky. I made some bevel cuts with an old stainless steel bread knife (don't tell me wife) and it is just about all black from the mastic at the moment (It will clean off).



3. When I finally figured out that the X-mat high profile wasn't going to work everywhere, e.g. in the feet contact area, and that Dynamat was stupid pricey, I went back to the place where I bought the X-mat high profile (KMS Tools - Old Car) to see what else they had. What I found and bought was X-mat Low Profile.

"X Mat Low Profile Dense Mats are developed specifically for superior sound and heat absorption while maintaining a minimal surface thickness. Ideal for door panels, under carpeting, under dash and trunk areas. Maximum temperatures range 350°F and a decibel reduction as much as 17.4 db or 20%. Easy to cut and contour and the strong adhesive back ensures they will stay in place for years to come."

What I bought was a box of nine (9), 18" x 31" pieces (= 34.8 ft2) for CDN$169 plus taxes (12%) or about $5.47/ ft2. I can't find that box on-line now, I just find a box of 5 pieces (19.7 ft2) for US$89.99 plus shipping. (about CDN$5.71/ft2 plus shipping)

https://www.eastwood.com/x-mat-low-profile-dense-mat-5-sheets-19-7sq...



Do I have preference?

Money no object or free as a gift, I would choose Dynamat. It is thicker and therefore probably better. The protective foil is definitely thicker.

Bang for the buck? I would choose Eastwood X-mat Xtreme low profile. It's about half the cost of Dynamat but it won't have half the performance.

Regardless BEWARE: The foils on these materials are as sharp as a razor and if you don't where gloves they will cut you like a pig in a Tijuana whorehouse knife fight (or so I am told)









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56D500boy
Posted 2018-03-13 3:01 PM (#559815 - in reply to #559813)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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ronbo97 - 2018-03-13 1:41 PM I have no idea what this stuff ended up costing 56D500boy. That's why I asked. I imagine he's put out 400-500 total, when a few cans of spray-on stuff would give you good results at a fraction of the cost. I have to do this to my 55 Desoto before I install carpet. So I'm curious as to what spray-on or brush-on undercoating product you would recommend. /Ron


Ron: I have spend about CDN$450 (about US$360) on these products but a bunch of the initial Dynamat purchase went to the rear speaker/parcel shelf project and inside my driver's door, and I still have four sheets of the X-mat Xtreme low profile left to put in my other three doors (and some left over for??). So the real cost of under the carpet is much less accordingly.

I did use some spray on-bed liner (Rustoleum??) in both sides of the front and read foot well before I installed any of these foil/mastic materials. I am only doing this once so over-kill is good.

I wasn't thinking that the spray-on bed liner was going to work as a sound deadener very well so that is why I went with the foil/mastic stuff. YMMV

As for carpet, the ACC/Stock Interior carpet that I bought for my 56 Dodge was actually for a 55-56 Desoto Fireflite.

4dr : https://www.accmats.com/commerce/1956/DeSoto/Fireflite/Flooring/1444...

2dr: https://www.accmats.com/commerce/1955/DeSoto/Firedome/Flooring/24238...

I paid much less than those prices by going through Stock Interiors

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ronbo97
Posted 2018-03-13 3:30 PM (#559817 - in reply to #559815)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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Thanks for the info, 56D500boy.

I think that for a third of what you paid, I could get enough spray-on sound deadener to encapsulate the exterior and interior portions of the floor boards.

Another thought: A lot of concern about road noise. But when I take my vintage cars out, it's on a warm, sunny day. So even with a ton of Dynamat, I would still get road noise due to my windows being open. So doesn't that neutralize any benefit you get from these expensive products ?

Ron

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ronbo97
Posted 2018-03-13 3:32 PM (#559819 - in reply to #559817)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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BTW, you can purchase ACC carpets through RockAuto for much less than from their website.

Ron

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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-13 3:57 PM (#559822 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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this is all the same stuff that dynamat sells... its all made in China.

Dynamat just puts a stencil on it and we pay a 400% markup

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/butyl-rubber-soundproof-materials.h...

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-03-13 4:03 PM (#559824 - in reply to #559819)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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ronbo97 - 2018-03-13 3:32 PM
BTW, you can purchase ACC carpets through RockAuto for much less than from their website. Ron


I bought my "55-56 Dodge Desoto 4dr sedan" carpet (which turned out to be 55-56 Desoto Fireflite 4 dr sedan) through Stock Interiors for US$159. They were very good about getting the front carpet piece corrected to fit my 56 Dodge. Not sure what Rock Auto would do so I am happy that I went with Stock Interiors.



ronbo97 - 2018-03-13 3:30 PM
Thanks for the info, 56D500boy. I think that for a third of what you paid, I could get enough spray-on sound deadener to encapsulate the exterior and interior portions of the floor boards.


As far as I know, my 56 Dodge was factory undercoated (or maybe at the dealer at time of delivery). Either way, it is undercoated. As for the interior, I am happy with what I have done and probably would do it again.




Edited by 56D500boy 2018-03-13 4:07 PM
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hemidenis
Posted 2018-03-13 7:16 PM (#559838 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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I used Fatmat, worked very well..



(c3.jpg)



(c1 (1).jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-03-13 7:38 PM (#559840 - in reply to #559838)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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hemidenis - 2018-03-13 7:16 PM
I used Fatmat, worked very well..


Nice one-piece carpet. Almost look molded around the hump. I wish.

As for Fatmat, it looks like it is a good price (36 ft2 for US$ 99) Not sure about their claims: "3X's more effective than leading sound deadeners!"

https://www.fatmat.com/

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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-13 11:52 PM (#559854 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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Noico runs 63$ shipped for 36 sq feet on amazon prime, 80 mil thick also https://www.amazon.com/Noico-deadening-automotive-Insulation-dampeni... 3x more effective...

hah They all sell "China sized" in boxes... 32 inches by 18 inches.

I wouldn't be surprised if Noico and Fatmat isn't the same maker in China.

Noico has fish scale like ridges in the aluminum sheeting.



Edited by mikes2nd 2018-03-13 11:54 PM




(noico.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2018-03-14 10:59 AM (#559867 - in reply to #553025)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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ronbo97 - 2017-11-24 9:39 AM

I just don't get the whole dynamat/sound deadener craze.

If we are talking about sound, what sound is coming from underneath the car ? Just the driveshaft turning, hopefully. Regarding heat, as you drive, there is a breeze that cools off anything that may get hot. But when you think about it, the only heat generated is from the engine. Unless you are stuck in traffic when it's 110 degrees outside and the asphalt is melting. But even then, the carpet and padding do a good job at blocking out heat.

So can someone explain this to me ?

Ron



Hey Ron, I'll take a stab at it. The sounds that people are trying to eliminate are not just the driveshaft turning. There is always going to be road noise. Even just the tires riding over the pavement results in a constant drone, and that kind of sound can be fatiguing over long drives. There is noise from road debris, small bits of gravel and sand that get kicked up on the floors in normal driving and of course the larger potholes and objects that you don't avoid. The exhaust can be noisy, and so can engines, transmissions, and rear axles. But even more than just noise - these things all MOVE. They shake and they rumble. Even if it's not something you "hear" it is something your body perceives. Here's an explanation of NVH: http://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=35405241

The "Dynamat craze" is really just a new way to address an old problem. The most direct way to address NVH is to add mass. If you've taken apart a '58 Plaza and a '58 Imperial, it's easy to see why the Plymouth feels like a beer can while the big car feels like a tank. The factory added mass with thick jute carpeting and asphault / rubber mats on the floors, inside the doors, anywhere they could stuff it. With Dynamat and similar products, we now have a way to add this mass in a very thin, easily applied form. I ordered some of the thinner 50mil Fatmat for my Chrysler. My 150sf order of this stuff weighs nearly 50lbs, and the math says the same thing in 80mil will weigh about 75lbs.

Adding a layer or two of Dynamat plus the original jute and carpet will make the car feel quieter and more solid on the road and when shutting doors. You could get the same effect by adding 50lbs of jute under the carpet - but that would result in a ridiculously thick pad under your feet. I'll be reinstalling all the factory type materials over the Fatmat, hoping to get a car that feels tight and solid like it was new.

All of these products are more or less the same. Some have better adhesives and a more resilient backing, but in my opinion that is moot once you cover it up. There used to be an issue with some of them stinking like asphalt, but that was years ago and I'm not aware of that still being a problem as long as you don't use home improvement products from the hardware store. The primary purpose of Dynamat is to add mass to the vehicle to reduce NVH. It is somewhat of a heat barrier too, but only because you're... adding mass. I spent $200 on Amazon for 150sf of the Fatmat, which seemed fair to me. I did the floors, firewall, doors, and trunk floor and still have 50sf left over. I thought I would do the roof too, but when I removed the headliner, the factory insulation was in perfect condition so I left it.

I hope that explains it...

Edited by 57burb 2018-03-14 11:27 AM




(fatmat2.jpg)



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ronbo97
Posted 2018-03-14 11:51 AM (#559870 - in reply to #559867)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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Thanks, 57burb, for the well-thought-out explanation. TBH, I never found the noise levels in my 58 Plymouth to be objectionable. But that may be because it was a ground up restoration, wiith all rubber seals replaced. Carpet has a decent amount of padding underneath. I may give some thought to installing that Noico product mentioned earlier in the thread, in my Desoto. Price seems reasonable. OTOH, I think the positive effect of installing one of these products may be largely nullified by opening the windows, which is how I like to drive.

Ron

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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-14 12:16 PM (#559872 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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its definitely worth doing, unless you want that original sound? I wouldn't do it on a concourse car.

I quiets the whole car down and makes it a better ride in my opinion.
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57burb
Posted 2018-03-14 1:00 PM (#559876 - in reply to #559872)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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There would be a difference even with the windows down. Obviously the wind noise is not affected, but the way the car feels going down the road still is.

I'm not sure I can quantify the difference using words. It's something you need to feel, on a car you are already familiar with, to be able to tell what a difference it makes. It's kind of like replacing worn out shocks. A person that doesn't drive the car often might not be that impressed, while a person that drives the car every day will be amazed.

Like Mike said, it's not for the restoration crowd. It's for people that drive their cars and want to make the driving experience more pleasant. Is it worth pulling out a perfect interior out to install? Probably not. Is it worth a couple hundred bucks and an afternoon if you already have the interior out? I think it is, but you may not.
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imopar380
Posted 2018-03-14 9:04 PM (#559911 - in reply to #559811)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials



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ronbo97 - 2018-03-13 10:41 AM

Ian - To be fair, you'd have to take both cars over the same stretch of highway to observe differences between the noise levels. But I'm not denying the role of sound deadener in keeping the passenger compartment quiet.

I think that there are cheaper solutions to this problem that will yield similar results, or at least acceptable results. I have no idea what this stuff ended up costing 56D500boy. That's why I asked. I imagine he's put out 400-500 total, when a few cans of spray-on stuff would give you good results at a fraction of the cost.

I have to do this to my 55 Desoto before I install carpet. So I'm curious as to what spray-on or brush-on undercoating product you would recommend.

Ron



Hi Ron,
I've driven both cars over the same stretch of highway, through WA and OR to a WPC Meet. The Monaco was a friend's car loaned to me for the week, as, at the time my 300 was having some emergency work done to it and wasn't ready, back in 2006.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-14 9:58 PM (#559919 - in reply to #553013)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on working with Sound Deadening Materials


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I like the spray on stuff, its nice and high end but a lot messier and a pita to remove if you need to. The sticker stuff is easy to put in place, no cleanup, no drips, runs etc. You know how thick it is, you can simply put it in a door with the hardware in place for example.

Lizard Skin and QuietCoat are NOT cheap.

60$ a gallon for QuietCoat, this is professional stuff they use on 10 million dollar yachts...

90$ for LizardSkin for a gallon... but its got a little higher heat range And this needs like 2-3 coats so you can be spending 500$ for he spray on stuff, ive seen them hit 800$ to 1000$ with lizard skin if you truly do it right.
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