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Original Dodge D501
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-26 10:22 AM (#574142 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas
I'm not about to go reading back through this whole thread but it appears there is a question about how the '57 cars with the "Imperial suspension" option would have been able to run 5 on 5.5" big Imperial brakes. This would apply to Kiekhaefer's "Road America competition model" 300Cs (I have the only survivor) and also the '57 Dodge D501 race car chassis. In the front, not difficult. Install Imperial spindles which give you heavier larger diameter spindles tanking the larger Imperial wheel bearings for the Imperial hubs of the Imperial drums. For the rear, the Imperial axle housing could not be used because of the trailing arms and links employed in the Imperial. Kiekhaefer's chief engineer, Charlie Strang was asked to create adapters at the Mopar (Chrysler or Dodge) axle ends which would allow the larger Imperial wheel (axle) out bearings to be used. The bolt pattern of the backing plates are the same across the lines. Since even the '57 Imperial had gone to 14" wheels, the Road America cars came off the assembly line wearing 14" Imperial rims and tires and 300C wheelcovers (have photo of my car's arrival at ECK's Plant 6 ("the race car plant") having been driven to Oshkosh by a Mercury Outboards employee (ECK considered this "break in" mileage plus he did not want the wheel bearings statically pounded by train or truck transport). The next existing picture of my car shows it with 15" wheels and '55-56 wheelcovers. Considering the bolt pattern, there had to be '55-56 Imperial wheels underneath the covers.
I currently own the restored Road America race car which never had the opportunity to take to the track as NASCAR canelled its '56-57 road race series prior to the Elkhart Lake, WI scheduled event. The car was put back into street trim and driven by Charlie Strang for his "executive" use as ECK's right hand man and confidant for the next couple of years and then traded in. Strang later became Commissioner of NASCAR. A lesser engineering employee of Mercury saw the car on the day of trade in, knew it well, immediately purchased it and very shortly moved to a new position with Clayton Dynamometers in California where I decades later purchased the car and found that engineer's widow to get the story and a few photos.
Also I have a '56 Crown Imperial with custom work by Derham. Yes, both '55 and '56 Crown models are C70s with minor trim changes and the 354 Hemi added to create the '56s. There is the familiar photo of Kiekhaefer with a '56 300B race car and his personal Crown production limo and the numerous trophies his race team had won in front of his home.



(May6_17.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-26 10:42 AM (#574148 - in reply to #574142)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere: Is this your car?

"Carl Kiekhaefer's Chrysler for the 1956 Nascar Road America race



Carl Kiekhaefer having some Chrysler and Dodge race cars at Road America, Elkhart Lake, WI, during 1956 with plans for 1957? Finishing restoration, I own his '57 Chrysler 300C "Road America competition model" as he names it in correspondence. Multiple special order features to the car include 390HP motor, built on convertible X-braced frame, etc. Attached shows it the day it arrived at Mercury Outboards Plant 6, "the race car plant" in Oshkosh, driven from Detroit by a CK employee.



Mercury archives photo showing the black Rd Am comp car in early development with his own header design. The front frame cross member was boxed at the factory.

Kiekhaefer did a fair amount of testing of his NASCAR road race cars at Rd. America judging by numerous photos. Going into '57 and always fighting with Bill France, he may have originally intended to "stay at home" from the ovals and just do the Elkhart Lake road race scheduled for June.

He bought an early 300C for testing, then two more special orders including this one. The factory 390HP pkg included manual trans but the two RA Comp models were Torqueflites.

"Imperial suspension" was part of the package incorporating larger hubs, bearings, 5 on 5.5 Imperial wheels, special camshaft, high output exhaust manifolds, blocked heat chamber dual quad intake on the 392 cube Hemi.

The Road America race was cancelled with the cancellation of the NASCAR Road Racing series. "


REFERENCE: http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2014_12_28_archive.html
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-26 11:11 AM (#574149 - in reply to #574148)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas

Yes, in the arrival photo.  Engine close up is of the companion car Rd Am, the next consecutive VIN.   Mine special order Charcoal Gray,  other Black.

 

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-26 11:46 AM (#574154 - in reply to #574149)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-26 11:11 AM

Yes, in the arrival photo.  Engine close up is of the companion car Rd Am, the next consecutive VIN.   Mine special order Charcoal Gray,  other Black.

 



Thanks. As discussed here:

"Celebrating the 40th anniversary of the program will be one focus of this year’s McPherson College C.A.R.S. Club’s 18th annual car and motorcycle show, organized by the restoration program students. And one of the cars slated to appear at the show will be the 1957 Chrysler 300C that a number of MacPherson graduates have chipped in to restore.

One of four that Kiekhaefer bought to race that year, the 300C hardtop is one of two he had modified with stiffer convertible frames, Imperial suspensions, boxed front crossmembers, and high-output exhaust manifolds and special camshafts for the 390-hp, 392-cu.in. Hemi V-8s. Kiekhaefer reportedly intended to take the two to Elkhart Lake to compete in the fledgling NASCAR road racing series, started the year before, but Bill France – with whom Kiekhaefer frequently butted heads at the time – canceled not just the race but the entire series.

The two cars then reportedly became personal street cars for Kiekhaefer and his chief engineer, Charles Strang. The charcoal example that Strang drove eventually got traded in on a Cadillac, but another Kiekhaefer employee, Frank Hartman, spotted it on the Cadillac dealer’s lot and took it with him to California in 1960. Wayne Graefen spotted it in Anaheim in 1991, complete with the documented Kiekhaefer alterations, and has since trusted its restoration to Tim Bowers, owner of Stellar Automotive Restoration in Windom, Kansas, and a former instructor at McPherson."


REF: https://chromjuwelen.com/de/network/228-blog-hemmings/204908-mcphers...



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-26 11:54 AM
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-26 11:41 PM (#574188 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Thank you, Wayne! You answered a lot of my questions and created some more too! The upside down 4 bolt exhaust manifolds on the 392 Hemi look on the above 300C like the ones I have on a 57 Truck 354 I have in my Garage ( just the Manifold part not the upside-down part). This truck Hemi of mine also has the special D501 valve covers seen on the 501 builds with the larger space nearer the intake manifold mentioned earlier. I think I better check the engine number on it tomorrow. (the truck was an airport fuel refilling truck in Georgia till 7 years ago.) But are the manifolds they the std. truck ones or special build competition ones just using the same 4 bolt system? Also looks like they flipped sides on them besides mounting them upside down. I will take a picture of them (Truck 4 bolt manifolds) on the Hemi Tuesday to post here. I am learning a lot guys, Thanks! Wayne beyond neat car of yours! John</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-27 12:04 AM
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-26 11:52 PM (#574189 - in reply to #574149)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Hi Wayne,
I'm the one who dragged you into this topic. Sorry about that!! I didn't know whether to post this or email you privately, anyway here is the question.

It has to be close to 25 years ago but you and I exchanged info as to how Chrysler/Dodge in 57 used Imp 5X5.5 bolt X 9/16" stud pattern wheels and rear drums to fit the lesser diameter axle shafts of Chrysler/Dodge. Either rightly or wrongly, as I recall, you suggested that 56 Chrysler Estate Wagons were fitted with the required rear drums. So, for the limited 57 production 501s, the parts had already been machined previously.

Do I recall correctly?
Greg
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 6:12 AM (#574196 - in reply to #574188)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-26 11:41 PM

Thank you, Wayne! You answered a lot of my questions and created some more too! The upside down 4 bolt exhaust manifolds on the 392 Hemi look on the above 300C like the ones I have on a 57 Truck 354 I have in my Garage ( just the Manifold part not the upside-down part). This truck Hemi of mine also has the special D501 valve covers seen on the 501 builds with the larger space nearer the intake manifold mentioned earlier. I think I better check the engine number on it tomorrow. (the truck was an airport fuel refilling truck in Georgia till 7 years ago.) But are the manifolds they the std. truck ones or special build competition ones just using the same 4 bolt system? Also looks like they flipped sides on them besides mounting them upside down. I will take a picture of them (Truck 4 bolt manifolds) on the Hemi Tuesday to post here. I am learning a lot guys, Thanks! Wayne beyond neat car of yours! John



The D-501 used the Dodge truck D900 valve covers with the coil bracket and bumps for mechanical rockers.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 6:16 AM (#574197 - in reply to #574076)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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LD3 Greg - 2018-11-24 4:05 PM

I don't doubt what you are saying but it is really easy to tell the difference between Chrysler and Imperial rear brake drums. The size of the axle taper is visible. Swept57, David, and other owners could tell us.

Greg


I'll try to get measurements off my rear axle/housing. It will be a week or so though that I will have time.

Also, the D-501 wheels are wider than the standard 56 Imperial wheels.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:20 AM (#574202 - in reply to #574189)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas

Howdy Greg,  Yes, I recall our exchanges on this and many other topics those many years ago.  The only answer I had at that time was "estate" brakes.   It was within the last ten years, I think, that researcher Karl Pippart III came across the explanation of the "Strang Conversion" if I may label it with that moniker, to make this happen.  With that the light bulb came on brilliantly and the question was answered.  

 

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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:30 AM (#574203 - in reply to #574188)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas

John,  the exhaust manifold shown in the photo of the open front end are unique, and as far as has been determined, were one-off castings.  Meaning one pair and experimental at that point.   They are shown on the black, companion car to mine.  Obviously they required cutting up the inner wheel wells and rerouting everything on the left side well.   In later years Fred Kiekhaefer, ECK's son, stated he thought he had seen the pair stored in his personal Quonset hut at Mercury Performance division, however when the building was emptied, they were not discovered.

These are not the truck 4-bolt manifolds of '55 and '56 which were used on the race cars.  I presume that is what you have.  Neither are they the limited production high performance 4-bolts which were a new casting to clear the new torsion suspension of the '57 cars.   What they are, as stated, is one-offs and internally they have half inch larger passages!

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-27 10:04 AM (#574206 - in reply to #574196)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Swept57 - 2018-11-27 6:12 AM

The D-501 used the Dodge truck D900 valve covers with the coil bracket and bumps for mechanical rockers.


Far be it for me to even remotely contradict you, *BUT*, that does no jive with images of D501 engines that I have seen:





REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=70160&...
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 10:12 AM (#574209 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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<p>What doesn't "jive"?</p><p> </p>

Edited by StillOutThere 2018-11-27 10:16 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-27 11:28 AM (#574212 - in reply to #574209)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 10:12 AM

What doesn't "jive"?


Mechanical (solid) lifter adjustment bumps or lack or therein.

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 11:47 AM (#574213 - in reply to #574212)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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56D500boy - 2018-11-27 11:28 AM

StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 10:12 AM

What doesn't "jive"?


Mechanical (solid) lifter adjustment bumps or lack or therein.

:)


The Chrysler (and Chrysler-based Dodge truck engine) bumps are completely hidden under wire loom covers.

Edited by Swept57 2018-11-27 11:48 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-27 1:25 PM (#574216 - in reply to #574213)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Swept57 - 2018-11-27 11:47 AM

The Chrysler (and Chrysler-based Dodge truck engine) bumps are completely hidden under wire loom covers.


Ah so! I did NOT know that. Live and learn. Too soon old. Too late smart.

Any photos of said covers?

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 1:40 PM (#574217 - in reply to #574216)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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56D500boy - 2018-11-27 1:25 PM

Swept57 - 2018-11-27 11:47 AM

The Chrysler (and Chrysler-based Dodge truck engine) bumps are completely hidden under wire loom covers.


Ah so! I did NOT know that. Live and learn. Too soon old. Too late smart.

Any photos of said covers?

:)


Here is Chrysler version...



(Valve_Cover.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 2:50 PM (#574221 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Wayne, I'm not sure why you limited the truck manifolds to '55 & '56. I'm pretty sure they continued to use those 4-bolt truck manifolds through at least 1959 or even later.

Also, I have never seen any truck motor that came with solid lifters. Why would they just use them on the D900?? Doesn't make sense, but maybe they did for some reason? Also, the D900 valve covers didn't come with the coil bracket on them. So I would say that the bumped covers with the coil bracket are D501 only. Below is a picture of a D900 truck motor with dual carbs, a D700 truck motor, and the D501 valve covers.



(57 D900.jpg)



(58 D700 354.jpg)



(D501 Covers.jpg)



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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 3:04 PM (#574223 - in reply to #574221)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 2:50 PM

Wayne, I'm not sure why you limited the truck manifolds to '55 & '56. I'm pretty sure they continued to use those 4-bolt truck manifolds through at least 1959 or even later.

Also, I have never seen any truck motor that came with solid lifters. Why would they just use them on the D900?? Doesn't make sense, but maybe they did for some reason? Also, the D900 valve covers didn't come with the coil bracket on them. So I would say that the bumped covers with the coil bracket are D501 only. Below is a picture of a D900 truck motor with dual carbs, a D700 truck motor, and the D501 valve covers.


The truck manifolds were used at least through 1958, some believe early 60's. I have a set of NOS 4-bolt truck manifolds with a casting date of 1963.

The middle picture is not a D900, not sure of the top one. I think the bottom picture is actually one of my D501 valve cover sets. They came off engine D501-1021. Louie Poole bought the rest of that engine and created a pretty nice D501 sedan clone, though he retained the powerflite.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 4:08 PM (#574224 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The top picture is the D900 as it is labeled. The point of posting it is to show that there is no coil bracket on it. Also note that even a D700 doesn't have bumps on it, though that was probably already understood.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-11-27 4:11 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 4:29 PM (#574225 - in reply to #574224)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 4:08 PM

The top picture is the D900 as it is labeled. The point of posting it is to show that there is no coil bracket on it. Also note that even a D700 doesn't have bumps on it, though that was probably already understood.


Maybe you are right on that. I thought I had a picture of a Dodge truck engine with the coil bracket, but can't seem to find it.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-27 6:52 PM (#574233 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Here are the pictures of my 57 D600 354 Hemi I had picked up a few months ago. It still has the air compressor on it (and it works!) I have not had the time to disassemble it yet, but I did have some Marvel Mystery oil equivalent squirted down the spark plug holes to loosed it up a bit before I turn it with a breaker bar on the crank bolt. When we did this we also took the cover off the head and it was not a dimpled valve cover and not the adjustable rocker style. Since I am new to the first Gen Hemi's, where do you look for the engine stamping on this block?</p><p>I will go back out in the garage and take pictures of the 4 bolt exhaust manifold. This engine came out of an 57 Dodge D600 Airport fuel truck in Georgia.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-27 6:57 PM




(IMG_0141.jpg)



(IMG_0140.jpg)



(IMG_0139.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 7:05 PM (#574235 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The stamping should be in the same place as they are for the car motors - on the top center, in front of the valley cover.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-27 7:07 PM (#574236 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Here is the frontal picture of the truck 354 Hemi with the unique timing cover on it putting the fuel pump on the driver's side of the motor instead of the passenger side and the oil supply tubing off the passenger side of the cover that feeds the air compressor on top. 2nd picture is of the driver's side 4 bolt exhaust manifold side. This was a manual transmission truck also.



(IMG_0142.jpg)



(IMG_0143.jpg)



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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-27 7:15 PM (#574238 - in reply to #574235)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 6:05 PM The stamping should be in the same place as they are for the car motors - on the top center, in front of the valley cover.

 

Thanks! I will look in the morning for the number and alpha's  stamped on this Truck Block.

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 7:44 PM (#574239 - in reply to #574225)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 4:08 PM

The top picture is the D900 as it is labeled. The point of posting it is to show that there is no coil bracket on it. Also note that even a D700 doesn't have bumps on it, though that was probably already understood.


Here are my D501 valve cover sets, the left set is off engine 1080, the right off of 1021. Interestingly, the 1080 engine block and heads are painted red and the valve covers are black. I have a fairly complete history of the engine and it seems to be original colors, but who knows after 60 years.

Edited by Swept57 2018-11-27 7:50 PM




(IMG_4672.JPG)



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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:34 PM (#574245 - in reply to #574221)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas

I wasn't "limiting" the truck 4-bolt exhausts to '55-56.   Just that Kiekhaefer dipped into the parts books those two years for "stock" parts for his race cars.   In '57 the truck manifs wouldn't fit with torsion suspension.   For '54 and earlier Carrera PanAmericana he had used totally production line parts.

 

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 8:39 PM (#574246 - in reply to #574245)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 8:34 PM

I wasn't "limiting" the truck 4-bolt exhausts to '55-56.   Just that Kiekhaefer dipped into the parts books those two years for "stock" parts for his race cars.   In '57 the truck manifs wouldn't fit with torsion suspension.   For '54 and earlier Carrera PanAmericana he had used totally production line parts.

 



I have always been confused about that as the D501 used the truck manifolds with T-bar suspension. Was it that there was just enough difference in geometry between the 501 and 300C that that 501 had enough clearance?
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-27 8:45 PM (#574248 - in reply to #574246)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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Location: Under the X in Texas

I've never owned, nor been up close personal with a 501.  The difference in wheelbase could have allowed some room perhaps?   The tight points are the power steering box (if equipped) and the rear upper leg of the right front control arm.

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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 8:58 PM (#574249 - in reply to #574248)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-11-27 8:45 PM

I've never owned, nor been up close personal with a 501.  The difference in wheelbase could have allowed some room perhaps?   The tight points are the power steering box (if equipped) and the rear upper leg of the right front control arm.



To my knowledge, no D501's came with power steering, so maybe the wheelbase difference explains it. I have a Chrysler memo indicating that some of the D-501 front suspension components were pulled from existing parts bins (Imperial) and modified. Someday I really have to organize all my info.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-27 9:46 PM (#574251 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The 354 motor is .75" shorter and more narrow than the 392. This would move the exhaust away from the hitting points to some degree too.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-27 10:00 PM (#574253 - in reply to #574251)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Powerflite - 2018-11-27 9:46 PM

The 354 motor is .75" shorter and more narrow than the 392. This would move the exhaust away from the hitting points to some degree too.


Hadn't thought of that, but makes sense.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-11-27 10:58 PM (#574256 - in reply to #574253)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Also there is a huge difference in the configuration of the upper control arm, Dodge versus Chrysler. Just a thought!

Greg
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-28 8:54 AM (#574268 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I guess that all adds up to plenty-o-clearance.

John, check your truck manifolds carefully, they were prone to cracking which is probably why they were still casting service parts in 1963!
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-28 9:09 AM (#574269 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Yes, the 392 is the new "raised block" and wider, taller. Its why the 331 and 354 intakes do not bolt up to a 392 without spacers.
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-28 10:09 AM (#574271 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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For a Chrysler, you only need intake spacers when putting the desirable earlier "555" or "triple nickel" '55-56 low-deck dry manifold 331/354 heads onto a tall-deck 392, since those earlier heads don't have the extra casting material (built in "spacers") of a stock 392 head. For some reason, Chrysler determined to keep intakes and water crossover manifolds common to the earlier engines and made significant changes to the 392 cylinder head design to do so. It doesn't make a lot of sense, as they had to cast new flat intakes anyway for the '57-58 cars.

But that does make identifying 392 heads easy. If the thumb fits, you must acquit!



(20181128_093509.jpg)



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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-28 6:47 PM (#574298 - in reply to #574268)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2018-11-28 7:54 AM I guess that all adds up to plenty-o-clearance. John, check your truck manifolds carefully, they were prone to cracking which is probably why they were still casting service parts in 1963!

 

David, Will do! I am learning a lot in this discussion..

 

John

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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-28 7:34 PM (#574305 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Yes, the 4-bolt truck manifolds continued to be cast into the '60s because there was call for them into the parts departments of the Dodge truck dealers. Every time Chrysler runs a mold for more castings, whatever that casting, it gets a new date inserted into the mold. Trucks are VERY hard on exhaust manifolds so they warped and cracked during their use. They needed replaced. Chrysler cast some more. Perhaps the latest were the '63s. I think that is also the latest date I've ever seen.
Very often you see a casting number on a part with a " -1 " or a " -2 ". This indicates there were two MOLDs in use at the same time for more castings to up the volume. There has to be a way to track quality control. If a whole bunch of " -1 " parts came into service departments with problems, the first question would be which mold they were made in.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-29 9:15 PM (#574373 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-29 9:49 PM (#574376 - in reply to #574373)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 9:15 PM

Guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?


I don't have the answer but it looks like it would be a function of which transmission was in play and maybe whether the housing was Dodge or Chrysler/Imperial.





(56-58DriveGearAndPinionSetRatios.jpg)



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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-29 10:46 PM (#574380 - in reply to #574376)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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56D500boy - 2018-11-29 8:49 PM
1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 9:15 pm guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?
I don't have the answer but it looks like it would be a function of which transmission was in play and maybe whether the housing was Dodge or Chrysler/Imperial.
Dave, I think everything is out the window in the manual on the suspension, wheels, and hubs for a D501 with the 354 HEMI, One would think it would be clear-cut due to the engine and Manual transmission that was part of the 501 package but what else is in that performance model/package..? Only the guys who have the D501's can tell us: Mike Mc. and David D. "what ratio is in your individual D501 cars?"



Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-29 11:41 PM
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 1:39 AM (#574390 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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All 92 "known" D501 builds were factory built with the 3spd manual transmission. With that transmission, the available rear axle ratios for the D501s were 3.73 (standard),or optional 2.92, 3.18, 3.36, 3.54, 3.91, 4.10, 4.30, 4.56, 4.89, 5.12, 5.38, 5.83, and 6.17. That's 14 ratios!

There are up to 10 "unknown" D501s whose build cards have not been located. The AMA book does say the Torqueflite auto was available for the D501 though, with 3.18 (standard) or optional 3.36 or 3.54 gear ratio. I'm not aware of evidence that an auto D501 was built, but its possible- and we know what ratios it could have had!
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Swept57
Posted 2018-11-30 7:37 AM (#574398 - in reply to #574380)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 10:46 PM

56D500boy - 2018-11-29 8:49 PM
1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-29 9:15 pm guys, One more bit of info I am curious about, What rear end axle ratio was in a D501 Model/Package? Was it just one ratio available for this 354 Hemi powerplant like a 3.73 or was it taller?
I don't have the answer but it looks like it would be a function of which transmission was in play and maybe whether the housing was Dodge or Chrysler/Imperial.
Dave, I think everything is out the window in the manual on the suspension, wheels, and hubs for a D501 with the 354 HEMI, One would think it would be clear-cut due to the engine and Manual transmission that was part of the 501 package but what else is in that performance model/package..? Only the guys who have the D501's can tell us: Mike Mc. and David D. "what ratio is in your individual D501 cars?"



I have yet to determine my axle ratio, but I will when I get back to working on it. Given that the Lee Smith 501 was originally drag raced by Arnie Beswick, it probably originally had short gears, but there is a good chance they could have been changed over the years. Lee put an overdrive transmission in his to make it more street-able.

The Sonny Bensen convertible featured in an old MCG magazine was reported to be a TF trans, but that article was provided by a third party (not the owner) so the info could easily have been wrong. Unfortunately, there were no pictures of the interior. Neil tried to track that car down, but made no headway. The serial number isn't known, so it isn't clear if it is one of the known IBM cards. The owner was reported to be a ex-Chrysler exec so being auto-equipped is a little more plausible. It is surprising that that car has not surfaced since that article came out in the late 90's.
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 9:29 AM (#574403 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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David aka 'Swept57', do you know the part number for the cylinder heads on the D501 engines? John aka '1959 Belvedere Conv' was asking me about that, and I wasn't able to find the info in any old threads.

Tex Smith's book The Complete Chrysler Hemi lists part numbers for Chrysler-based Hemi engines; here are all of the published PNs for low deck Hemi heads in that 1956-57 period:

1956 all passenger car 354 - 1619 823
'54-6 truck and industrial 331 - 1634 864
'57-8 truck and industrial 354 - 1733 463
'57-9 truck and industrial 354 - 1730 438

Does your engine use one of those casting numbers? Or is there a mystery PN for the D501s?

It appears that "all" '56-8 354 blocks are 1619 829, does this jive with your blocks? thanks-
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 12:22 PM (#574412 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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<p>Thanks, Danny and David, Just trying to drill down deeper. Makes sense Arnie B. would probably be running 4.56 rear end or another ratio if he was drag racing. Just trying to find out what came from the Dodge main factory before an owner switches out them to what he needs to compete. The intake head question is that if Chrysler Marine Hemi heads were already using Sodium-filled exhaust valves did Chrysler just use those Marine heads on the D501? A look at the heads when the valve covers are off some day on the 501's would answer that question. Also, did the D501's have the same small sticker on them that the Chrysler Marine Hemi heads had put on notice that the exhaust valves were sodium filled... If they warned a Marine mechanic of that fact would they not do the same for a land-based mechanic? I know I am a pest on this D501 questions... i would presume that there was no factory warranty on the car or a limited one being such a race oriented build. any info on that front?</p><p>Looking at the Getty Images there wasn't any caution sticker about the special valves, So</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-30 12:45 PM




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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 12:38 PM (#574414 - in reply to #574412)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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The 3.73 gear was standard equipment for manual-trans D501s.

The D501 of Arnie Beswick was delivered with a 4.89 gear, but was later changed to a 2.93 so it would be more drivable.

per Neil:
Took a road trip with Lee to a Detroit WPC National Meet, in the early 90's, in this car--full manual former race
car, which was delivered with the 4.89 gear set in it.

Lee had installed the 2.93 'pig' in the car, so it didn't burn any rubber on the trip, but got over 17MPG on the
highway!


That information is from this D501 thread: http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28504&star...


Edited by 57burb 2018-11-30 12:40 PM
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 12:49 PM (#574416 - in reply to #574414)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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57burb - 2018-11-30 11:38 AM The 3.73 gear was standard equipment for manual-trans D501s. The D501 of Arnie Beswick was delivered with a 4.89 gear, but was later changed to a 2.93 so it would be more drivable. per Neil:
Took a road trip with Lee to a Detroit WPC National Meet, in the early 90's, in this car--full manual former race car, which was delivered with the 4.89 gear set in it. Lee had installed the 2.93 'pig' in the car, so it didn't burn any rubber on the trip, but got over 17MPG on the highway!
That information is from this D501 thread: http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28504&...

3.73 would sound reasonable that this model/package of the Coronet would be delivered with that gear set with a Manual Transmission.

 

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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-30 1:49 PM (#574418 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I can tell you that the truck, industrial & marine heads would not have been used. They couldn't have because they use a wet intake, and the D501 uses a dry intake. So the only real possibility is the standard 354 hemi head since it wouldn't make sense to use the '55 331 head; even though it flowed better and gave higher compression.

Also, that valve cover sticker was used on the trucks & industrial motors that used sodium valves too so I would assume that they put it on the D501 as well.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 2:33 PM (#574424 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Probably right but would love to get the Heads part numbers to nail it down a bit more. I would think that they (Chrysler) would assign a special part number for this non-Industrial/Marine head that would have the Sodium filled valves to differentiate it from a standard 354 Hemi Head. just would like too know what it is in case some are floating around to snag up. I am finding that a lot of people have a lot of info on the D501 that we would need to put down. I wish Neil V. was still with us...He would consolidate all of this info.
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57burb
Posted 2018-11-30 3:02 PM (#574425 - in reply to #574424)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 1:33 PM

I wish Neil V. was still with us...He would consolidate all of this info.


He had a LOT of information about the D501s. The press releases, AMA paperwork, some from Dodge, several IBM cards, his conversations with Darrell Davis and Greg Legatt, etc.

He shared this photo of his "D501 file" years ago. I wonder what happened to that?!



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-30 5:20 PM (#574436 - in reply to #574425)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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57burb - 2018-11-30 3:02 PM

1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 1:33 PM

I wish Neil V. was still with us...He would consolidate all of this info.


He had a LOT of information about the D501s. The press releases, AMA paperwork, some from Dodge, several IBM cards, his conversations with Darrell Davis and Greg Legatt, etc.
He shared this photo of his "D501 file" years ago. I wonder what happened to that?!


As an "outsider" (only been here 2 years), I find it very disappointing that Neil V. did not share more of his D500 and D501 info, either with the forum as a whole, e.g. uploaded copies of D501 IBM cards, or with individuals that would do that now that Neil is gone.

Personally, if it had been me, I would have shared it all. I would not be worried about people cloning D500s or D501s because there would be enough info to debunk claims.

Moreover, seeing what I am seeing, it would appear that there is quite a bit of info hiding in threads on this forum that could still be consolidated. Corroboration could come from Wayne G. (StillOutThere), 57Burb and/or others.

I smell a D500 and/or D501 book or at the very least an article in a Mopar magazine (or something suitable).

Just sayin'



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-30 5:25 PM
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