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Location: Michigan | I got my electrical issues sorted out with my alternator and got a brand new Pertronix II for Penny along with a P II coil. It ran great on my road trip up to traverse city area. Put 800 miles on this shake down cruise for this year and it was flawless.
I went on vacation for a week. When I returned I was driving to a car show and the car was running great at 55 mph. Then nothing. No engine....
After the tow home and basic troubleshooting, I put in the dual pt distributor and she fired right up and is running great. It was the pertronix. It failed in less than 9 months time.
This is the second time this has happened too me. I won't be using it again. Just wanted to let you all know here that I had problems and if you have a recent version of this system.. be wary. |
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Location: Colorful Colorado skier on the license plate | I personally have never used pertronix on my own vehicles. I always get volunteered to help people when their old cars break down on our cruises. I have replaced 2 Pertronix units that were failed, and one intermittent. I personally have used MSD and also have had failures requiring a tow home. Even HEI units fail.. I guess I will keep with Mopar systems. Knock on wood. |
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Location: Ontario, Canada | Just something to think about. There is a big CAUTION with the use of Pertronix and that is if the engine quits be sure to switch off the "ignition". Seems obvious but here is my story.
Got the car out of winter storage, started the engine and let it warm up. Started messing with underhood stuff, carb and spark timing etc. and the engine stalled. I didn't think of getting back in and turning off the key! I just went on doing all the various things that I had on my "to-do" list. My arm touched the coil and it was really hot! Oh, yeah, I forgot! The engine started instantly so I thought I had dodged a bullet, but a few hours of running later it quit. The damage had been done and it took awhile to take hold. In fact it had ruined the new Flamethrower coil as well!
Greg |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: So. Cal | I used a Pertronix I once in 2002 without issues, but since then I have just been using HEI modules on the Chrysler electronic distributor. In hundreds of thousands of combined miles, 15 years, and multiple cars (around 12) I have never had one fail. And they are cheap and provide better performance than most other systems. Probably why I don't bother to use anything else. My cars have left me stranded on a couple of occasions - bad tire and bad spare, partially plugged fuel line, fuel gauge not working, loss of oil pressure, alternator self destruction etc but never from an ignition problem. It's not stock, but I don't care because it's worth it.
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Leaving the ignition "ON" with the engine not running for as long as you did would likely have killed a stock coil as well.
Just sayin'
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Location: So. Cal | The '63 Nova wagon that I drove for many years with a '75 GM HEI system in it didn't have an accessory position on the ignition switch, which really bothered me because at the time, I liked to listen to the car radio while I worked on the car. (Now I have a nice system in my garage that I listen to instead) But I would leave the key in the "ON" position for many hours in that car with no ill effects. It all depends what your module is doing when the power is on, but not running. But having a newer style coil probably helps too. |
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Location: Michigan | Powerflite where do you get those units? Can you post some links so I know I am looking at the same things. I can't seem to find those for a 354 Hemi..
Edited by Beltran 2017-11-18 4:18 PM
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Location: So. Cal | I have been making them for 13 years and sell it as a kit to mount them to the distributor (the other 2 years of 15 total, were in my Nova, and also using an expensive DUI unit before I made my own conversion). The module is a stock unit from GM products 1975-1981 or so. To use them, you need a stock Chrysler electronic distributor from '71-'76? or so. And to be able to use this distributor in a hemi, you need to change the intermediate shaft to a conversion unit that you can get from Hot Heads.
http://www.designed2drive.com/
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Location: Michigan | ok.. I am intrigued. So I need to buy the HEI module from Summit or something? Your bracket. Find a small block distro and get a shaft from Hotheads. Do I understand this correctly?
What coil should I use? That low resistance coil or a Ignitor II (which I happen to have)? |
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Location: So. Cal | Module from Napa, OReilly's, Autozone, Summit, or wherever you want to. You can use whatever coil you want, you just need 1.5 ohms primary resistance if you use a canister (old style) coil. An E-core style coil can use a much lower primary resistance without issues. If you want the best performance, the E-core will give you a lot more spark power. I usually get electronic distributors cheaply from a swap meet and make sure they are working well before I use them. Vacuum advance canisters are available new, which are usually the only thing that wears out on them. But yes, I don't provide any of this stuff for you, you have to gather it up yourself.
One word of caution: The new aftermarket distributor castings have moved the drain holes that I use to mount it so that makes it harder to mount this bracket. It is a lot easier if you use an original casting. |
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Location: Michigan | I suppose one of these would work?
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Location: Michigan | The two on the left are big block. The one on the right must be small block.. but it's too dirty to see any numbers on it. |
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Location: So. Cal | You can quickly tell which type of distributor you have by looking at the very end of the shaft. RB motors (440, 413 etc) have 2 lines engraved on the end of the shaft. B motors (383, 361, 400) have only one line engraved on it. Small block distributors have no lines on it. |
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Location: northern germany | Powerflite - 2017-11-18 9:34 PM
You can quickly tell which type of distributor you have by looking at the very end of the shaft. RB motors (440, 413 etc) have 2 lines engraved on the end of the shaft. B motors (383, 361, 400) have only one line engraved on it. Small block distributors have no lines on it.
didn't know that. thanks! |
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Location: So. Cal | Sure. That only applies to the aluminum distributors, but both points & electronic. |
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Location: Michigan | Find small block mopar distro to use, Check.
Locate one US made GM HEI module for 20 bucks, Check.
Locate Hemi Hot heads conversion adaptor for small block mopar distro... oops.. not found on site! There is always a snag... Sent email to Hot Heads.. will get back. |
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Location: So. Cal | You need 21936 for a 331/354 hemi as long as your motor doesn't use the newer 392 oil pump (check the length before you install it to be safe). You can press out the old pin and use your old gear, or purchase a new one from Hot Heads to install on your new intermediate shaft.
http://hothemiheads.com/ignition_system/intermediate_shaft_360SB.ht...
http://hothemiheads.com/ignition_system/intermediate_drive_gears.ht...
Edited by Powerflite 2017-11-20 9:28 PM
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Location: Michigan | Ah yes.. you have to change the intermediate shaft.. they couldn't just change out the distro shaft.. it needs like a half inch more in length.. thats it.
How does this new shaft fix the length issue? The gear is in the same location. The distro shaft connects into the gear. Not sure I get it...
Edited by Beltran 2017-11-20 11:00 PM
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Location: N.W. Fla. | On the 331/354 you can install a longer int shaft or cut & extend the shaft on the LA dist. If you replace the int shaft & the dizzy craps out you can get one from any parts house, if you cut & extend the dizzy shaft you have to do that on the new one & that can be a challenge if that happens on the road. One guy on another Forum claimed that either the B or RB shaft is the right length if installed in the LA dizzy, but never got back with which one. Also the int shaft length also involves which oil pump you end up using. |
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Location: So. Cal | As George mentioned. This new shaft is longer at the top so that it mates up properly with the later distributor. On a 354, the top of the original shaft is submerged quite a ways into the gear. This new shaft will put it just above the gear, so it extends it up further to mate with the later distributor.
Edited by Powerflite 2017-11-21 12:23 AM
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Powerflite - 2017-11-20 9:26 PM You need 21936 for a 331/354 hemi as long as your motor doesn't use the newer 392 oil pump (check the length before you install it to be safe). You can press out the old pin and use your old gear, or purchase a new one from Hot Heads to install on your new intermediate shaft.
Nathan: I am interested in figuring this out (in my head). I understand that the gear on the intermediate shaft meshes with the gear near the end of the camshaft. What I don't understand is a) how you pull the shaft and the gear out and b) how you get the orientation of the gear and the slot for the distributor drive correct.
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Location: So. Cal | Dave: You don't need to post a blow up drawing from the FSM at every post. We all know what the intermediate shaft and gear is.
First: You want to write down which spark plug your rotor is pointing to so you can get it back there when you are done.
Second: Pull the distributor.
Third: Insert these reverse snap ring pliers into the groove in the intermediate shaft and work it up and out. It typically takes a bit of work becuase on the bottom of the shaft there is often some buildup that doesn't want to go through the upper bushing so you have to work at it until you can pull it up past the varnish buildup on the shaft.
Fourth: Press the pin out of the shaft that holds the gear to it. You can do this ON a vice (not in a vice) and use a hammer if you like
Compare the two shafts to make sure they are the same length from the gear to the bottom! The top portion should be longer of course. This will ensure that you have the right shaft because later '57-'58 354 motors used 392 oil pumps so they need a custom version to make this work.
Fifth: Put the old gear on the new shaft and put the pin back into it to hold it on.
Sixth: Insert the new shaft into the motor and rotate it with a large screw driver until you feel it sink down into position. As you rotate it, it will sink down at each little turn, but at one point it will sink down further than the rest and you will know you have made the proper engagement to the oil pump drive.
Seventh: Put the distributor back in and get the rotor firing on the same cylinder it was before. You may need to move some of the wires around if the position changed significantly.
Eighth: Time the distributor using a timing light.
Edited by Powerflite 2017-11-21 1:44 PM
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Powerflite - 2017-11-21 1:31 PM Dave: You don't need to post a blow up drawing from the FSM at every post. We all know what the intermediate shaft and gear is.
Sixth: Insert the new shaft into the motor and rotate it with a large screw driver until you feel it sink down into position. As you rotate it, it will sink down at each little turn, but at one point it will sink down further than the rest and you will know you have made the proper engagement to the oil pump drive.
Thanks for the step by step instructions.
I know that you know what an intermediate shaft is BUT *I* wasn't 100% sure in the Mopar context. The last time I dealt with an intermediate shaft it was in my 1980 Jetta in 1985. That shaft was belt driven off the cam belt and was easier to figure out. So I posted the diagram (from the Mopar Parts pdf) so I am being clear about what *I* am talking about.
My "Issue" is with step 6. There are many teeth on the cam gear and the intermediate shaft gear so lots of possibilities of getting it wrong. I understand that some irregularities can be adjusted out when the distributor is re-timed. However, I was thinking that *IF* you noted the orientation of the upper slot before removing the intermediate shaft before it was removed *AND* you didn't rotate the engine while it was out, it might be possible (via trial and error) to get everything back to the exact position, making re-timing almost unnecessary.
Or not?
Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-21 2:03 PM
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Location: So. Cal | Yes, most of the time it goes back in unchanged. But the problem is that the oil pump shaft can turn on you, and you end up in a different position afterward. If that happens, you can't physically get down there and turn it back so you end up having to rotate the distributor to account for it, or else, rotate the wires around on the cap. |
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Location: northern germany | 56D500boy - 2017-11-21 2:02 PM
My "Issue" is with step 6. There are many teeth on the cam gear and the intermediate shaft gear so lots of possibilities of getting it wrong.
No issue. simply turn the crank to 1. cylinder tdc. in that position the intermediate shaft slot (if a mopar piece) will be at engine centerline position.
Edited by 1960fury 2017-11-21 4:35 PM
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Location: Michigan | SCORE!.. I can do that dizzy shaft swap. I have a few of them. Will figure out which one it is and report back. I would like to be able to drop the original back in if it fails on me. If I change the intermediate shaft then that option is out. |
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Location: Michigan | You can also rotate the engine carefully until the intermediate shaft drops into place on the oil pump. |
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Location: So. Cal | If you make sure to rotate it back to where you started so you don't lose track of which plug it should be firing on, that would work. The 440 shaft is the only one that has a chance to be long enough, but that shaft has the weights rotating the opposite direction. Not sure if you can make that work or not, but I tend to doubt it, and I also doubt that it will be the right length. If you purchase a new gear with your new shaft, then it wouldn't be too much trouble to swap them back and forth. The hardest part of the process is getting the old one out because of the varnish buildup, and pressing the pins on the gears out. But once you clean the varnish off your old shaft, you can slide it in and out easily. Swapping the shafts, once they are clean isn't much harder than just replacing the distributor.
Also, the position of the intermediate shaft on these motors is not tied to #1 in any way. It is just aligned to the oil pump shaft, and in one of 12? possible rotational positions, determined by the number of teeth on the gear. Nothing forces it to be installed so it lines up with the engine centerline. But there is a 2/12? possibility that that may occur. |
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Location: northern germany | Powerflite - 2017-11-21 9:24 PM
Also, the position of the intermediate shaft on these motors is not tied to #1 in any way. It is just aligned to the oil pump shaft, and in one of 12? possible rotational positions, determined by the number of teeth on the gear. Nothing forces it to be installed so it lines up with the engine centerline. But there is a 2/12? possibility that that may occur.
if that was a response to my post, i didn't say that. of course you can install and run the shaft in any position. all i said this is the stock position. this his how they were put together.
so if you forgot the position of the intermediate shaft after you pulled it and don't want to switch wire location or distributor position, that (turning the crank to 1. TDC) is a safe way to achieve that.
ps i somehow thought this is about bigblock, so what i said applies to BB. not sure if thats different for polys? but i would be surprised if they didn't come like that from the factory too (1.tdc = slot crank centerline).
Edited by 1960fury 2017-11-22 9:33 AM
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Location: Muskego, WI | 1960fury - 2017-11-22 7:59 AM
Powerflite - 2017-11-21 9:24 PM
Also, the position of the intermediate shaft on these motors is not tied to #1 in any way. It is just aligned to the oil pump shaft, and in one of 12? possible rotational positions, determined by the number of teeth on the gear. Nothing forces it to be installed so it lines up with the engine centerline. But there is a 2/12? possibility that that may occur.
if that was a response to my post, i didn't say that. of course you can install and run the shaft in any position. all i said this is the stock position. this his how they were put together.
so if you forgot the position of the intermediate shaft after you pulled it and don't want to switch wire location or distributor position, that (turning the crank to 1. TDC ) is a safe way to achieve that.
ps i somehow thought this is about bigblock, so what i said applies to BB. not sure if thats different for polys? but i would be surprised if they didn't come like that from the factory too (1.tdc = slot crank centerline ).
You're correct. From the factory, the old Hemis, Polys and small blocks were built so the slot in the intermediate shaft will be parallel to the crank when the engine is at TDC in cylinder #1. |
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Location: Michigan | I have examples of all the 70's Distro's. The small block has the longest shaft. But it's not long enough so the only option is to get the intermediate shaft. |
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Location: Michigan | Just an update for everyone. I got the HEI conversion plate from Powerflite and did this conversion... but, Murphy's law was in play.
So I took the small block distro I had selected above and cleaned it all up. Attached the plate and the HEI module I got online. Everyone went together perfectly. All good stuff from Powerflite!
I got the conversion shaft from hotheads and used a spare gear to get that all assembled. Then waited for a warmer day to work on Penny.
That day came a few weeks later and I was out there with pads and rugs laying over the top of the engine so I could reach the distro at the very back center of the engine bay. Climbing back and forth and laying on top of the engine is necessary for this operation, keep that in mind.
So I pull out the distributor and use a magnet on a extension arm to pull out the oil pump shaft and cam gear. Set those aside and then go to put in the longer oil pump shaft and gear. Get that aligned after a couple of tries and it drops in place on the pump. Then get the new distributor and go to drop that in. It's too tight and wont go in the hole all the way. The gasket is a little to thick.. I spend some time trimming this rubber O-ring down enough to get it in the hole. Takes a couple of tries. But it goes in finally. However, the rotor can turn freely! The distro shaft isn't engaging on the extended pump shaft!
Pull it all out and then start taking some serious measurements. Seems my small block distro's shaft is about 3/8" to short. So I look at all the other distro's I have. The BB distro's are longer so I take one apart. In the process I realize that the weights aren't going to work right even if I can the shaft to work. The BB distro spins in the opposite direction. The weight plate is welded to the shaft so trying to switch the small block weights to another shaft is not possible.
I then look at one of my spare 55 Distro's. I wondered if I could do a shaft swap originally but the part swap just seemed easier. Looks like I have to try this now. So I dismantle it and sure enough, I can change the parts between the small block shaft including the top piece that holds the rotor. Seems they didn't change distro technology much between 1955 and 1965. So I get the 55 shaft into the 65 distro housing and reassemble it. Since I am using the 55 shaft I have to pull out the extension shaft, right.
I put the original oil pump shaft in and the new frankendistro I have created... and it doesn't connect up. the Shaft is too short! Once more. I put the Extension oil pump shaft and gear in, get that aligned to the pump after multiple tries.. then put the franken distro back in. This time it lines up. That was 6 hours.
After two tries I got the engine to start. Adjust timing and it runs really well. Spark is strong even at the lowest RPMs. (500) I am using a Pertronix flamethrower II coil.
For this swap, I am not sure why the Small block distro didn't reach the extended shaft. The housing is a 1/4 taller than the old 55 housing so thats what caused it to require the extended oil shaft even with the 55 distro shaft swapped into the housing. Perhaps the model of distributor I had wasn't the correct year range or something. I never checked that. Just another regular project on Penny for me. They never go as easy as it says in the book.
Edited by Beltran 2018-02-09 7:08 PM
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Yikes. That was a bit of nightmare but you persevered and worked your way through it. Good job.
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Location: So. Cal | Very odd. I have never run into a small block distributor that was shorter. Are you sure you used the right oil pump shaft? What kind of motor is it and what year is it? Do you have a 331 style oil pump or a 392? That's pretty cool that the shaft was able to interchange. I wonder if you could do the opposite and put an electronic shaft into an iron distributor? That might be cool for a stock looking car. |
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Location: Michigan | If you look in my signature you will see some of the modifications I have made. it is a 354 Marine block. 56 vintage. The only thing I have ever found to be different than the automotive block is where they put the holes for the water pump and the oil pan bolts that are for a 51-54 vintage oil pan. Actually I could have used the iron distributor and put the mounting plate and pickup into that. I would have to drill holes for the plate though and a notch for the wires to exit. But I could have stuck with the stock rotor and cap as they are not that different. The oil pump shaft was from Hot Heads and it did stick up from the gear just a bit.
Edited by Beltran 2018-02-10 10:10 AM
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Location: Michigan | some pics
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Location: Michigan | Searching this number online I find that it fit a 73 400 engine. Weird thing is thats a BB and it was one of a couple i have that rotate in the correct direction. I will have to check the others that have numbers (some dont) and see what is really there. This just seemed the obvious choice because visually it looked the same height as the iron distro and rotated in the correct direction. The others I have are shorter. The guy I got this from had a 66 Barracuda with a 273 block. All these parts came with the car. |
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Location: So. Cal | That makes more sense now. The 383/400 shaft is pretty short. |
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Pertronix update
