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Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-03 11:34 AM (#545485)
Subject: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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I took the Dodge out yesterday to chase some of its own parts for a change. I started kind of hard, like the starter was stuck but it did start. Drove around a bit. Noticed that even at speed, the Ammeter was (-) not (+). Hmmm...

Stopped to go into a shop. When I came out, it wouldn't start, wouldn't even turn over. Battery. Merde.

Fortunately, there was a Canadian Tire store within walking distance so I walked down there and bought a Lithium Ion Battery jumper pack (their house brand with 750 peak "boosting" amps). It was precharged to 100%. Walked back and after a couple of tries, got the engine started and drove home.

Parked the car and put the charger on the battery for a few hours. Checked the voltage at the battery after I stopped charging. 12.58 V. Okay (battery was new last September). With the engine running, I checked the voltage at the two terminals on the generator. 0.2 V. Okay, dead. Or very very sick.

Now to get the generator tested properly and either get it rebuilt or find a good new one. Tricky because this generator drives my PS pump.

Edited by 56D500boy 2017-08-03 11:37 AM




(DForgies56D500EngineBayJuly28_2017_2.jpg)



(DForgies56D500EngineBayJuly28_2017_3.jpg)



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57chizler
Posted 2017-08-03 1:43 PM (#545493 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: RE: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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Before assuming that any part is faulty, follow the troubleshooting procedures in your FSM Charging section.

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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-08-03 1:58 PM (#545495 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: RE: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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During your extended stereo project did you have the battery disconnected, or did it go mostly dead?

If so maybe the generator just needs to be re-polarized. Used to do that on VW Beetles all the time.

Unfortunately I don't remember the proper diagnosis, or polarization procedure. It involved jumping battery to the generator in some fashion . . .

Anyone recall?


Gregg
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DepsilonD
Posted 2017-08-03 2:19 PM (#545499 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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You jump from the + side of the batter to one of the terminals, just can't remember which one. And I had my generator rebuilt for $60 so that may be your best bet if that is the issue. And it is not that hard to separate from the power steering pump. And it will give you a chance to make sure the coupler is in good shape.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-03 4:58 PM (#545506 - in reply to #545499)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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LostDeere59 - 2017-08-03 1:58 PM
During your extended stereo project did you have the battery disconnected, or did it go mostly dead? If so maybe the generator just needs to be re-polarized. Used to do that on VW Beetles all the time.
Unfortunately I don't remember the proper diagnosis, or polarization procedure. It involved jumping battery to the generator in some fashion . . . Anyone recall?
Gregg


DepsilonD - 2017-08-03 2:19 PM

You jump from the + side of the batter to one of the terminals, just can't remember which one. And I had my generator rebuilt for $60 so that may be your best bet if that is the issue. And it is not that hard to separate from the power steering pump. And it will give you a chance to make sure the coupler is in good shape.


I drove the car to a local (10 min away) Starter and Generator/Alternator place this AM to have them check it out. All the guy did was check the voltage at the battery with the engine running. It was 12.18V so he pronounced the generator faulty. I would have to take it off and bring it back for the bench test and rebuild.

I came home and phoned my NOS parts guy (who was a Mopar mechanic for 40 years) and told him the story. He asked me whether, I removed the big "red" wire and checked for connection to the battery. I said no, and still have to do that. He suggested that if the wire didn't give me battery voltage, I have wiring problem.

During my valve cover restoration project (May/june/july), I had the generator disconnected and the battery disconnected so it could be:

a) a wiring issue (I did try to fix some of the wiring but I might have failed)
b) a polarization issue (of which I have no clue)



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-08-03 5:00 PM
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DepsilonD
Posted 2017-08-04 2:16 PM (#545572 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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To polarize, you just use a jumper wire from the + terminal to one of the terminals on either the gen or the regulator. Generators are "dumb", they have to be told which direction they are supposed to charge. So when you polarize it, you are just telling the generator to create a charge when you spin this direction.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-04 2:51 PM (#545576 - in reply to #545572)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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DepsilonD - 2017-08-04 2:16 PM
To polarize, you just use a jumper wire from the + terminal to one of the terminals on either the gen or the regulator. Generators are "dumb", they have to be told which direction they are supposed to charge. So when you polarize it, you are just telling the generator to create a charge when you spin this direction.


So I am learning. From what I have read/watched (youtube), for negative ground, I need to very temporarily jumper between the ARM (armature) terminal (on the regulator) and the BAT (battery) terminal on the regulator. I think I will go from the + post on the battery to the bigger terminal on the generator which I believe is the armature terminal (the smaller one being the field coil terminal which I read that I should avoid).

After lunch and after I confirm the wiring from the battery, generator, start solenoid and the voltage regulator is correct.

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DepsilonD
Posted 2017-08-04 5:48 PM (#545588 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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That sounds right and I use the second method you listed. And it will spark so be forewarned! All you need to do is zap it really quick.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-04 5:55 PM (#545590 - in reply to #545576)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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56D500boy - 2017-08-04 2:51 PM So I am learning. From what I have read/watched (youtube), for negative ground, I need to very temporarily jumper between the ARM (armature) terminal (on the regulator) and the BAT (battery) terminal on the regulator. I think I will go from the + post on the battery to the bigger terminal on the generator which I believe is the armature terminal (the smaller one being the field coil terminal which I read that I should avoid).

After lunch and after I confirm the wiring from the battery, generator, start solenoid and the voltage regulator is correct.


Used my Multimeter set on 200 ohms to check the wiring from the Generator ARM (big thick red wire) to the voltage regulator ARM (yup connected). Also checked that the smaller wire on the generator is connected to FIELD on the Voltage Regulator (yup). For fun, also checked for continuity between the (+) terminal on the battery and BAT on voltage regulator. Yup.

All good.

The regulator is an after-market ECHLIN (shown in the photo below) and it already shows and mentions that before starting the car, the ARM and BAT need to be very temporarily connected via a jumper wire. So I did that before starting the engine. Started the engine. No change at the Ammeter, still in discharge mode despite increasing the revs.

So I turned off the engine and temporarily jumpered between the (+) post on the battery and the ARM terminal on the generator. Nice spark! Started the engine again. No change. Still in discharge mode.

I guess I will have to bite the bullet at remove the generator and investigate it (and/or take it into the Alternator/Starter shop.) The PS pump complicates things somewhat but not seriously.

Long weekend here so...Tuesday at the soonest.





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-08-04 6:06 PM
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wizard
Posted 2017-08-05 1:08 AM (#545613 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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run the engine and polarize the generator whit the engine on idle.
otherwise the generator cannot be polarized.....
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-05 2:03 AM (#545616 - in reply to #545613)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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wizard - 2017-08-05 1:08 AM run the engine and polarize the generator whit the engine on idle.
otherwise the generator cannot be polarized.....


Hmm... the wording on the cover of the ECHLIN voltage regulator specifically says to polarize *before* starting the engine.

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-11 11:53 AM (#546010 - in reply to #545616)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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I took separated the PS pump from the generator yesterday and removed the generator from the engine. I then took the generator and the regulator to another Auto Electric shop that was recommended to me (Brighouse Auto Electric in Richmond BC). Andy there opened up the generator and showed me where he thinks I have dead segments in the armature. He is recommending an NOS or rebuilt armature. The brushes were fine.

Now I am hoping to find a NOS armature locally. One issue is the PS pump drive.

I was thinking, if I am going be putting money into this generator, why not convert it to a hidden (in the case) alternator? But then the issue will be cost and,more importantly, the PS pump drive.

Anybody converted a generator to an alternator and kept the PS pump Drive?

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DepsilonD
Posted 2017-08-11 3:29 PM (#546020 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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Dave F,

I've seen people add alternators to the passenger side and just use the original gen as "dummy spacer" to run the original pump. I have also seen folks swap to a more modern pump run it off the drivers side and add an alternator to the passenger side.

Dave N.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-11 4:12 PM (#546022 - in reply to #546020)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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DepsilonD - 2017-08-11 3:29 PM Dave F, I've seen people add alternators to the passenger side and just use the original gen as "dummy spacer" to run the original pump. I have also seen folks swap to a more modern pump run it off the drivers side and add an alternator to the passenger side. Dave N.


Yup. Those options are going to be Plans B and C.

Plan A = get a new armature for this one.

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ttotired
Posted 2017-08-11 6:22 PM (#546028 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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Polarising a generator does not require it to be running. Its quite opposite actually, if its running and has already started charging opposite to what you want it to, you will make a 24V short circuit when you try to repolarise it.

If I do it with the genny still on the car, I slip the belt off, disconnect the wiring for the genny from the reg (saves the contacts if something goes wrong) and then I "motor" the genny.

If it wont motor, the genny has problems and would need to come off

If it motored, then it should be ok, but you still would want to look at the brushes to make sure there is plenty left on them

Then, if all is good, with the wires still off the reg, start the engine and put a volt meter between the genny armature terminal and the genny case and make 100% sure it is putting out the voltage the right way, EG pos earth or neg earth, which ever way you wanted it to work (most US cars were neg earth, European stuff was pos earth, made it hard to fit radios to them, so it was quite common to swap the battery around and re polarise the genny)

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-11 7:02 PM (#546030 - in reply to #546028)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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I've moved on beyond that possibility (which would have been difficult with the PS pump attached).

The generator did "motor" at the shop but it didn't generate much if any. Bottomline, I am sending it out Monday for a rewind. Might be back Thursday or Friday and then back to the shop. (I'm stickhandling the sending and receiving to a) save myself some money and b) speed things up (I hope).

I am disappointed that nobody makes a long shaft mini-alternator that would fit in my PS-drive generator casing. Sounds like a good project to me.



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ttotired
Posted 2017-08-11 7:20 PM (#546033 - in reply to #545485)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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Look at diesel engine alternators like early Nissan patrols or similar (theres heaps of them), they have a vacuum pump
mounted to the rear of them that is driven by a splined shaft.

I have not looked at how the ps pump is driven on the genny, but an adaptor system to go between the alternator and the pump would not be to hard to make
is you own or have access to a lathe

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-08-11 8:55 PM (#546037 - in reply to #546033)
Subject: Re: Two steps ahead, one back: Generator issue - not charging



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
ttotired - 2017-08-11 7:20 PM Look at diesel engine alternators like early Nissan patrols or similar (theres heaps of them), they have a vacuum pump
mounted to the rear of them that is driven by a splined shaft.
I have not looked at how the ps pump is driven on the genny, but an adaptor system to go between the alternator and the pump would not be to hard to make
is you own or have access to a lathe


This generator has a two pin PS pump drive that is attached to the end of the armature with a single bolt (oblong slot in the drive and oblong "pin" at the end of the armature shaft). And yes, if I had a metal lathe, I would design and make the required shaft that would permit the installation of a small alternator in the generator case, with an extension through the 6203 ball bearing to the PS drive. Seemingly easy peasy.





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-08-11 9:11 PM




(DaveForgiesGJC20_0FArmature_small.jpg)



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