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1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question
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X-Frame
Posted 2017-06-28 12:58 AM (#543026)
Subject: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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This can be considered either a technical as well as historical question and hoping owners and/or historians will have the answer?

Even though the chassis was overbuilt in many ways, the 1957-1959 Imperial 4-door Hardtops were equipped with convertible chassis frames with X-bracing. Other 4-dr ht Chrysler products did not use the added X and it was dropped for the 1960 year (Imperial continued with the body-chassis construction until 1967).

The question is simple, WHY was the convertible chassis used when it seems like it would have been sufficient without it? Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Example photo attached.

Eric

 





(1958 imperial x viewO8M1PNQQ 2.jpg)



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Attachments 1958 imperial x viewO8M1PNQQ 2.jpg (367KB - 271 downloads)
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KcImperial
Posted 2017-06-28 3:34 AM (#543028 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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I believe this was only done on the 1957 and 1958 Imperial four door hardtops and not on the 1959.
Although all three years are very similar visually, in fact they are all quite different when it comes to parts interchangeability.

From what I understand, the four door hardtops received the "X" frame for extra rigidness due to the "B" pillar not connecting to the roof.
In 1959, the "B" and "C" pillars were redesigned along with some of the inner bracing and inner door shells. This gave the extra rigidness that no longer required the "X" frame.

Imperial was touted as "The most carefully built car in America". The added cost for the top of the line Imperial would be better justified than on a Chrysler, Plymouth or Dodge.
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60 Imp
Posted 2017-06-28 6:07 AM (#543029 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: RE: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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Nice pic above!

I too have wondered about the X frame on the 57 and 58 Imperials. Thanks for the explanation KC. What about the 1956 year, did they get the X frame?
Also, what are the fittings and tubes on the header pipes in the above pic?

The 1960 model Imperial was billed as 'America's most carefully built car' (through to 63 from what I have learned on-line). This is likely because Imperial took over the Desoto plant (Warren Avenue, Dearborn), and the brand new high tech Imperial only assembly line, combined with the (claimed) industry first quality controls along the line. I find this stuff very interesting, and it is one of the reasons I went after a 60 Imp! Some good info in these links if anyone cares to look.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&c...

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&c...

Sorry to deviate this thread, but the engineering on the Imperial cars greatly interests me.

Thanks for cranking it up X-Frame!

I have one more question though. When did Chrysler stop building the Imperials in this plant?

Steve.

Edited by 60 Imp 2017-06-28 6:10 AM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-06-28 6:39 AM (#543031 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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almost looks like O2 sensors on the exhaust???

hah GM hiding it under a sheet... oh sneaky guys... sneaky...
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mstrug
Posted 2017-06-28 7:35 AM (#543034 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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They bought one with the fuel injection!


http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=42214&...


http://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/electrojector.html

Edited by mstrug 2017-06-28 7:38 AM
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X-Frame
Posted 2017-06-28 8:37 AM (#543038 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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Posts: 7

KCImperial... actually, the 1959 did this as well according to the 1959 collision parts book which shows the chassis frame alignment dimensions.

Yes, that was the reason with many cars who did not use the X brace across the board with all of their models. It added reinforcement to the frame due to the lack of a roof but, the lack of a 'B' pillar just seems odd. It was the only make and model car in America that did this, which is one reason why I asked. All other Chrysler Corp models only used a X brace in the case of convertibles until they went unibody in 1960 (1967 for Imperial). That included hardtops. It just seems like a redundancy thing but one person hinted that it might have been the car's weight which contributed to it?

60 Imp... no, only convertibles in the Chrysler Corp stables used the X brace and did not even use it on the factory built limousines from 1955-1956. When Ghia took over building the limos for Imperial, they used 2-door coupes initially that had convertible frames under them to cut and lengthen so they have an altered X brace. I don't think that Stagecoach did this though?








Edited by X-Frame 2017-06-28 8:47 AM
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firedome
Posted 2017-06-28 10:47 AM (#543043 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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Interesting that GM bought one for examination... actually some other cars did feature this kind of frame, specifically Oldsmobile, which was always considered GM's division featuring advanced engineering, in much the way that Chrysler was. The '58 (and think '57) Oldsmobiles featured a frame that comprised BOTH a full perimeter frame AND full X in the center as well, not typical for other GM divisions to my knowledege, and this was true even for 4 door sedan models with B pillars and full frame doors! Hence the reason that my '58 Super 88 sedan is very rigid and tight to this day. Olds always went a little bit beyond the expected in my experience.

Tried to post a pic of the frame from the '58 Olds fsm, but this bloody site won't permit over 500kB...
time to get with the 21st Century program, mods!!

Edited by firedome 2017-06-28 10:54 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-06-28 1:01 PM (#543051 - in reply to #543043)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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I think you just need better compression software. I can get over 1200 x 800 pixels at 250KB at very high quality. If you email me the picture, I can post it for you.
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KcImperial
Posted 2017-06-28 1:21 PM (#543052 - in reply to #543038)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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X-Frame - 2017-06-28 7:37 AM

KCImperial... actually, the 1959 did this as well according to the 1959 collision parts book which shows the chassis frame alignment dimensions.

Here's a 1959 Crown Southampton for sale with undercarriage pics. There is no X-frame on 1959's.
https://myclassicgarage.com/marketplace/cars/all/Chrysler-Imperial/1...

I would not trust pictures in a parts book as it's easy for them to recycle from previous years if similar (close enough).
I have the 3 volume set of factory shop manuals for 57-59 Imperials. They even includes a chapter on rebuilding the 6 cylinder engine. I hope that doesn't mean Imperial had 6 cylinders instead of Hemi engines.



(59a.jpg)



(59b.jpg)



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Attachments 59b.jpg (62KB - 178 downloads)
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-06-28 7:06 PM (#543071 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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I agree with Don, manuals can be tricky sometimes, specially when the author never imagine in his wildest dream than 60 years later that some guys will be talking about it.
Imperial are a mystery and they always will be.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-06-28 7:10 PM (#543072 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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this is the frame of my 57.



(IMG_0038b.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_0038b.jpg (53KB - 221 downloads)
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Greg P.
Posted 2017-06-28 9:00 PM (#543077 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: RE: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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Wow, that is a great photo! I love seeing original period photos like that. Very interesting that it is a GM proving ground photo, although I suppose it makes sense that any company would want to reverse engineer the competition.

I had no idea that Imperial hardtops had an X-Frame. Fascinating!

Two other things I'm curious about:

1. Sure does look like what would be O2 sensors installed on the exhaust, but I'm skeptical that is what they are. Does anyone know what they really are? Do any Imperial owners have such things on their cars? I don't even think the FI cars of the day had O2 sensors. My first guess would be that GM installed something to assist in their analysis of this car. There appears to be some discoloration on the pipes in that area, possible due to the welding.

2. There is a 360 degree loop on one of the transmission cooling lines. Is that common? Why would they do that? I don't recall ever seeing that.

Edited by Greg P. 2017-06-28 9:08 PM




(1958 imperial EDIT.jpg)



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Attachments 1958 imperial EDIT.jpg (377KB - 105 downloads)
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X-Frame
Posted 2017-06-28 9:06 PM (#543078 - in reply to #543072)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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hemidenis - 2017-06-28 8:10 PM

this is the frame of my 57.


Nice frame photo but apparently not a 4-door hardtop but a pillared sedan or 2-door coupe version?

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hemidenis
Posted 2017-06-28 9:14 PM (#543080 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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the loop in the lines is just a rudimentary radiator.
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X-Frame
Posted 2017-06-28 9:41 PM (#543083 - in reply to #543077)
Subject: RE: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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Greg P. - 2017-06-28 10:00 PM

1. Sure does look like what would be O2 sensors installed on the exhaust, but I'm skeptical that is what they are. Does anyone know what they really are? Do any Imperial owners have such things on their cars? I don't even think the FI cars of the day had O2 sensors. My first guess would be that GM installed something to assist in their analysis of this car. There appears to be some discoloration on the pipes in that area, possible due to the welding.

2. There is a 360 degree loop on one of the transmission cooling lines. Is that common? Why would they do that? I don't recall ever seeing that.


I don't think any engine of that era had them but could be just added by GM for testing?
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christine-lover
Posted 2017-06-28 9:44 PM (#543084 - in reply to #543080)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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GM bought cars from the other manufacturers, and I'm sure other manufacturers did the same. I have an original test report on a 58 Dodge with FI that GM bought for extensive testing with 3,617 miles. And, no oxygen sensors with 58 Mopars with EFI, not to mention Imperials didn't get FI.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-06-28 10:49 PM (#543087 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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this picture also contradicts the myth that the front suspension components and the leaf springs weren't painted...
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KcImperial
Posted 2017-06-28 11:23 PM (#543089 - in reply to #543077)
Subject: RE: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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Greg P. - 2017-06-28 8:00 PM
Two other things I'm curious about:

1. Sure does look like what would be O2 sensors installed on the exhaust, but I'm skeptical that is what they are. Does anyone know what they really are? Do any Imperial owners have such things on their cars? I don't even think the FI cars of the day had O2 sensors. My first guess would be that GM installed something to assist in their analysis of this car. There appears to be some discoloration on the pipes in that area, possible due to the welding.

2. There is a 360 degree loop on one of the transmission cooling lines. Is that common? Why would they do that? I don't recall ever seeing that.

1. Could very well be O2 sensors for some sort of testing equipment. Don't know anything about them other than that. No, not installed on any of my '58 Imperials.
2. Yes, all of my '58 Imperials have the full loop on the one cooler line. I guess the bean counters in accounting hadn't yet figured the $$ a U-loop would save.
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KcImperial
Posted 2017-06-28 11:27 PM (#543090 - in reply to #543078)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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X-Frame - 2017-06-28 8:06 PM

Nice frame photo but apparently not a 4-door hardtop but a pillared sedan or 2-door coupe version?

Denis's Imperial is a pillared sedan but did you check out the photos on the link I provided? That one was a 1959 four door hardtop with no x-frame.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-06-28 11:42 PM (#543093 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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they supposedly used the loops to handle slack as motor mounts loosened with age during acceleration. Ive seen them on a variety of cars.

The multi coil was actually a mini radiator.
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X-Frame
Posted 2017-06-29 3:21 AM (#543101 - in reply to #543087)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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Posts: 7

hemidenis - 2017-06-28 11:49 PM

this picture also contradicts the myth that the front suspension components and the leaf springs weren't painted...


Obviously, they were painted.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-06-29 3:28 PM (#543157 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question



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Yes Don, I saw the link, and seems like the hardtop and the sedan shared the same body and frame as I painfully discovered last year..
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X-Frame
Posted 2017-06-29 5:30 PM (#543170 - in reply to #543026)
Subject: Re: 1957-1959 Imperial 4-DR HT chassis question


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Posts: 7

Even if the 1959 did not share the same configuration, at least we DO KNOW that the 1957 and 1958 4-Door Hardtops utilized the convertible X-brace frame while 4-Door Sedans and 2-Door Coupes did not.

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