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Looking for a starting point on brake issue
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Ray
Posted 2017-06-22 9:11 PM (#542689)
Subject: Looking for a starting point on brake issue


Expert

Posts: 1497
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Location: Fairfax, Minnesota

61 Newport(Canadian Windsor) with power brakes

Recently replaced master cylinder, wheels cylinders and Dewey rebuilt booster.

Everything has been adjusted and readjusted so it brakes very evenly- most of the time. 

Every once in a while, I get a very strong yank to the right. Sometimes it's a one-time event and other times it happens several times in a row.

The car did this before the above mentioned work was done and it hasn't gone away.

Looking for ideas as to what could be causing this and how to troubleshoot the situation.

Because the event sems to be like a on-off  switch, I am guessing that a left front shoe is hanging up, but I don't know how to verify what is causing it.

Any ideas?

Thanks

 

 

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dlyle
Posted 2017-06-23 12:54 AM (#542698 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue



Veteran

Posts: 236
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Location: Morgan Hill, CA
do a search for sticking brakes. Similar situations have been discussed many times before. Make sure your front springs are good and that they attach to the hole in the shoe and not the loop. Only the rear brakes have the spring in the loop.


http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=57395&...

The Chrysler Master Tech youtube videos below are excellent in detailing brake problems and how to fix. I watched all of them that dealt with total contact brakes.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=total+contact+b...
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wizard
Posted 2017-06-23 3:34 AM (#542700 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
This might be far fetched, but I had a simular problem one - the reason was difficult to find, but I found out that one tire slipped on the rim due to excessive mounting paste. I had the tire removed, rim and tire cleaned and remounted with only a thin layer of mounting paste and that solved the problem.

I have cromed rims and perhaps this made the slippage more easy?!
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57chizler
Posted 2017-06-23 1:09 PM (#542719 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: RE: Looking for a starting point on brake issue



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Location: NorCal

So, the brake shoes are native to the problem?
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Ray
Posted 2017-06-23 1:51 PM (#542722 - in reply to #542698)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue


Expert

Posts: 1497
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Location: Fairfax, Minnesota

dlyle - 2017-06-22 11:54 PM do a search for sticking brakes. Similar situations have been discussed many times before. Make sure your front springs are good and that they attach to the hole in the shoe and not the loop. Only the rear brakes have the spring in the loop. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=57395&... The Chrysler Master Tech youtube videos below are excellent in detailing brake problems and how to fix. I watched all of them that dealt with total contact brakes. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=total+contact+brakes[/Q...

The youtube video looks very helpful. Thanks

Based on the content it apears as if the brakes, as they left the factory, were a "kit" that requied some assembly. I wonder if the dealers were expeced to "prep" the cars that they sold after this information was published. Or, did the dealers wait for customer complaints or customer collisions/deaths.



Edited by Ray 2017-06-23 1:53 PM
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Greg P.
Posted 2017-06-23 1:59 PM (#542723 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: RE: Looking for a starting point on brake issue



Elite Veteran

Posts: 769
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Location: Oley, PA
This video is also a great one to watch. Some good tips including proper adjustment procedure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ6fQHpqgps

Lots of weird things that can cause a pull to one side and finding them can be frustrating. I agree that the most likely scenario is a shoe not fully returning, but could be other things.

Does the right side run hotter then the left? How do the shoes look? Is there any sign of overheating or cracking?

Some things to look for:

-Bent shoe web, or web not centered

-weak return spring

-Incorrectly installed return spring

-Spring "link" or anchor slipped out of position on post and dimple

-Dust shield "platforms" bent or not flat

-sticking wheel cylinder

-air in wheel cylinder or line

-grease or brake fluid on shoes

-restriction in brake line or hose

-drum out of round

-improper adjustment - see procedure

-caster/camber incorrect

-tire worn unevenly or damaged

Let us know what you find!



Edited by Greg P. 2017-06-23 2:02 PM
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51coronet
Posted 2017-06-23 8:31 PM (#542745 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue


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Start at the front passenger side if it pulls right. Most braking happens at the front. I would do a real good cleaning of the entire brake assembly. Then switch to front discs for an increase in reliable braking and safety. That is one mod even purists should be fine with. Its not very expensive or hard to do either considering it can save your life.
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Ray
Posted 2017-06-24 10:16 PM (#542810 - in reply to #542723)
Subject: RE: Looking for a starting point on brake issue


Expert

Posts: 1497
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Location: Fairfax, Minnesota

Update-

Since we gained a little improvement by originally bleeding the lines, we did it two more times. The result was a much better pedal feel and brakes that are at least safe to use. I drove it home from the shop and round trip to the Back-To-The-Fifites show in St. Paul. Not a lot of driving (probably 70-80 miles) but no hint of pull and I know I can stop if I need to. 

The pedal height is still lower than I would expect and as I apply the brakes and feel the intiail resistence, there is very little braking except at very slow speeds. It seems to reqire quite a bit of pedal movement before the brakes really engage. This is little frightening in a panic stop.

__Does anyone recognize this description of how the brakes are performing now?

__Any deas as  where to focus out attention now?

__Does the fact that we had the system flushed and installed DOT 5 some years ago figure into this saga? 

 

Thanks to all your suggestions and links. The fact that the pulling seems to be gone is a relief, but not knowing what caused it still causes some worry.

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58coupe
Posted 2017-06-25 9:53 AM (#542830 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue



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Location: Alaska
Dot5 is synthetic brake fluid? I have read many times that you may get a lower pedal with synthetic and maybe a different pedal feel.
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wizard
Posted 2017-06-25 10:38 AM (#542834 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

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I would change to DOT 3 - DOT 5 is always giving a more spounge feeling.
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Ray
Posted 2017-06-25 11:36 AM (#542838 - in reply to #542834)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue


Expert

Posts: 1497
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Location: Fairfax, Minnesota

wizard - 2017-06-25 9:38 AM I would change to DOT 3 - DOT 5 is always giving a more spounge feeling.

Thanks for the information. It apears as if I did not do enough research on my own before using DOT 5

Compressibility — Silicones have a poor bulk modulus. In practice, this means they can compress up to three times more than conventional fluids when pressurised in a brake system. This results in a “spongy” feel to the brake pedal, together with long pedal travel. These effects can be countered by fitting oversized master cylinders but this is expensive and produces non-standard components.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/tech_pdfs/0DOT%205%20SILICONE%20BRAKE%20FLUID%20-%20SEPT%202015.pdf

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51coronet
Posted 2017-07-08 10:07 PM (#543784 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue


Extreme Veteran

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DOT 5 will compress very slightly more than a glycol based fluid. I doubt its enough to be of concern or able to be felt at normal temps. The main problem I have had using DOT 5 silicon fluid is getting the air out of the system. It aerates so easily and some of the air bubbles will be so small you can't see them. Its best to bleed a DOT 5 system over the course of hours or even days to give the air time to accumulate in areas it can be purged in one shot versus throughout the entire brake system. Whatever is caught in your bleeder jar should be set aside for an hour or 2 to allow the air to escape to the top then poured back into the master carefully. Even then its not a bad idea to allow the master to settle the air out.
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2017-07-09 6:13 AM (#543805 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: Re: Looking for a starting point on brake issue



Expert

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Location: Netherlands
If the rod between booster and MC is not adjusted properly, like too short, it can have some play and excessive pedalmovement is then needed to engage the brakes.
If the rod is too long, brakes can drag and become hot.
Even slightly touching can be seen as being too long as with (nearby engine) heat it will expand some and prevent fluid from fully returning to the MC.
Again, causing dragging and hot brakes.
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60 Imp
Posted 2017-07-09 7:00 AM (#543808 - in reply to #542689)
Subject: RE: Looking for a starting point on brake issue


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Location: North Australia
My 60 Imperial has (from 2013) all new original type brake components, with DOT 5 juice and I think the brakes work good. To be realistic, I cant compare to any other Chrysler from the FL era because I haven't driven another. I will say that I have experienced the Front left wheel locking when the car is driven after a period, but only at slow speeds, and only after the car has sat. I use the park brake to get the car onto the road then make the first application at 20MPH and no problem. I have a set of NOS return springs here and will replace the Front left next time it is opened up.
My only comparison is, I owned and drove a 45 Series Toyota Landcruiser for 20 years, and the Imperial brakes are much better than the Tojo (Tojo had big drums all round, like the Imp). Good thing too, the Imp is much faster than the old Toyota!

Sorry I cant help you more Ray, I guess I am saying dont blame the DOT 5. But you wont know unless you take it out?

Steve.

Edited by 60 Imp 2017-07-09 7:03 AM
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