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Locking rear brake drum
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-05-01 12:46 PM (#539225)
Subject: Locking rear brake drum



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
Hi everyone,

I'm one week away from a vehicle inspection which will finally grant me a license plate for my '58 Plymouth. At last.
Everything is almost ready, except for a locking rear brake (the right one) which really bothers me.
After braking, that drums locks (partially or totally) and I can only free it by reversing the car on a few feet.
During trial runs, I came back with the drum being boiling hot, to the point I burned the tip of my finger just touching it !

I did the cam adjustement to loosen the shoes, but no change.
I took out the wheel, the drum and inspected the brake, but found nothing : the springs are in place, no oil or grease anywhere, no leaking cylinder.

As it is the drum farthest from the master cylinder, I suspect the brake fluid has some difficulties going back.

What can I do ?
What do you suggest ?

Thanks.
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finsruskw
Posted 2017-05-01 2:34 PM (#539227 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum


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Posts: 2289
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Location: Eastern Iowa
Leading edge of the shoes not chamfered enough, or not at all??
Pinched brake line?
Internal collapse of brake hose at the "Y"
Shoe arc not ground to drum diameter causing "shoe wrap up when applied?

Seems I recall that same issue w/my rt frt shoe on the F years ago
sanded the show to fit the drum fixed the issue IIRC
Try powdering the inside of the drum with the brakes released, then spin the wheel while someone applies the brakes
This should indicate any high spots on the shoes.
Good luck

Edited by finsruskw 2017-05-01 2:35 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-05-01 2:42 PM (#539229 - in reply to #539227)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



Expert 5K+

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Location: So. Cal
Show us a picture of your backing plate with shoes installed. It is often a case of seemingly minor changes from what it should be.
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-05-02 4:48 AM (#539265 - in reply to #539227)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1316
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
finsruskw - 2017-05-01 8:34 PM

Leading edge of the shoes not chamfered enough, or not at all??

Not at all. But as the other brakes are working fine, I never thought about that.
What is the advantage of chamfering the shoe edges ?

Pinched brake line?

Nope. Checked that.

Internal collapse of brake hose at the "Y"

The brake hose looks just fine.
And if it was the case, I would probably have both rear brakes dragging or locking.

Shoe arc not ground to drum diameter causing "shoe wrap up when applied?

I would have to check that, but as drums were not ground, I doubt there's a perfect fit.

Try powdering the inside of the drum with the brakes released, then spin the wheel while someone applies the brakes
This should indicate any high spots on the shoes.

I will try to do that.

Good luck

Thank you

Powerflite - 2017-05-01 8:42 PM

Show us a picture of your backing plate with shoes installed. It is often a case of seemingly minor changes from what it should be.

I will try to make a picture of the backing plate today.
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58coupe
Posted 2017-05-02 10:02 AM (#539271 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Location: Alaska
You did not mention the wheel cylinder. If it is not in good shape, it will cause the brake to not release.
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-05-02 11:34 AM (#539285 - in reply to #539271)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1316
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
58coupe - 2017-05-02 4:02 PM

You did not mention the wheel cylinder. If it is not in good shape, it will cause the brake to not release.

They're new ones from Andy Bernbaum.
Although they have waited a few years before being assembled on the car, they were in good shape.
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ronbo97
Posted 2017-05-02 1:14 PM (#539287 - in reply to #539285)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum


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Location: Connecticut

Pull the drum of the brake that's locking up. Verify that the return springs are correct and that they are hooked into the correct location. Consult the shop manual and don't 'assume'.

Also, don't rule out the brake hose. It may look fine, but may be collapsed inside. When was it replaced ?

Ron

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Chrome58
Posted 2017-05-02 2:06 PM (#539288 - in reply to #539287)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1316
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
ronbo97 - 2017-05-02 7:14 PM

Pull the drum of the brake that's locking up. Verify that the return springs are correct and that they are hooked into the correct location. Consult the shop manual and don't 'assume'. :)

Ron, if you read my first message, you'll see I did just that. First thing.
Everything was in place and OK. No leakage, no broken or misplaced return spring.

Also, don't rule out the brake hose. It may look fine, but may be collapsed inside. When was it replaced ?

It was a new one from Andy Bernbaum also.
Assembled on the car a few years ago, but saw brake fluid for the first time last year.
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ronbo97
Posted 2017-05-02 2:49 PM (#539292 - in reply to #539288)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum


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Location: Connecticut

Are your springs brand new, or did you reuse them ?

Even though it may be new, maybe the wheel cyl isn't functioning properly. I would replace that. Or if you feel like it, swap the shoes, springs and wheel cyl to the other side. That will help you narrow it down.

Ron

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Chrome58
Posted 2017-05-03 2:14 PM (#539382 - in reply to #539292)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1316
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
OK, here are some pictures I've taken today.
The brake shoes are indeed not chamfered, but everything else looks OK.
Before you ask, the gray thing is an assembly paste (a solid lubricant) put there by my former mechanic.





(P1050020b.JPG)



(P1050021b.JPG)



(P1050022b.JPG)



(P1050023b.JPG)



(P1050024b.JPG)



(P1050025b.JPG)



(P1050026b.JPG)



Attachments
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Attachments P1050020b.JPG (168KB - 188 downloads)
Attachments P1050021b.JPG (146KB - 180 downloads)
Attachments P1050022b.JPG (209KB - 169 downloads)
Attachments P1050023b.JPG (185KB - 166 downloads)
Attachments P1050024b.JPG (205KB - 178 downloads)
Attachments P1050025b.JPG (168KB - 202 downloads)
Attachments P1050026b.JPG (159KB - 181 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-05-03 2:32 PM (#539385 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: RE: Locking rear brake drum



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9604
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Location: So. Cal
Something that is obviously wrong is that your springs need to be connected to the loops, not the holes in the brake shoes. Putting 5 or 6 loop springs there won't work well at all. This may be the whole problem causing what you are experiencing. Notice how the loops of your springs are contacting your shoes? This isn't giving you the proper return force and geometry when they extend. The front drum brake springs go into the holes for a different reason, but they use much shorter, stiffer springs to make it *mostly* work well.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-05-03 2:38 PM




(59springs3plf.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 59springs3plf.jpg (95KB - 190 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2017-05-03 2:48 PM (#539387 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 2196
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Location: Muskego, WI
Ding Ding Ding Ding! Excellent catch of such a minor detail, easily overlooked.

Edited by jboymechanic 2017-05-03 2:49 PM
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wizard
Posted 2017-05-03 3:20 PM (#539389 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Far as I remember, that spring position was for to avoid squeeling brakes mostly.
The leading edge of the shoes not chamfered at all, try to chamfer the leading edge with a coarse file or rasp.

Mind that the brake shoes might contain asbest, so work slowly and use a breating mask.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-05-03 3:43 PM (#539391 - in reply to #539389)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Location: So. Cal
Yes, wizard, but only if you have the proper springs for that position. You need 3 loop springs if you want to put them there. Those bigger springs must be used on the loops. And putting them on the loops is the proper place for the rear shoes.
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-05-04 2:42 AM (#539421 - in reply to #539391)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1316
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
Thank you Nathan !
I was doubtful, but I just checked in the FSM, and you are absolutely right !

I'm going to check the other brake assemblies for conformity.







(RearB.png)



(FrontB.png)



Attachments
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Attachments RearB.png (75KB - 185 downloads)
Attachments FrontB.png (75KB - 181 downloads)
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ToMopar
Posted 2017-05-04 6:25 AM (#539428 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1153
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Location: D-70199 Heslach
Vincent, I have had the same "squeze" problem on rear shoes, here are pictures of front and rear



(1505098219.jpg)



(1701278471.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 1505098219.jpg (84KB - 169 downloads)
Attachments 1701278471.jpg (71KB - 166 downloads)
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-05-04 3:05 PM (#539452 - in reply to #539421)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



Expert

Posts: 1316
1000100100100
Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
Done.

I chamfered the brakes shoes, and put the spring hooks in the correct loops, on both sides.
The pistons did indeed go deeper in the cylinder than with the previous assembly.

Did not have the time for a road test, that will be for tomorrow evening or saturday morning.


Edited by Chrome58 2017-05-04 3:07 PM




(P1050030b.JPG)



Attachments
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Attachments P1050030b.JPG (190KB - 170 downloads)
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1961plymouthfury
Posted 2017-06-04 10:34 AM (#541504 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum


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Location: Minor Hill, TN
Do not feel bad the front brakes on my '61 locked on me when I was moving the car out of the garage to get it washed. My dad said the brake design on these cars are not very good. I plan to solve the problem by converting to front disc brakes . My other '61 has front disc brakes and another rear end with bigger brakes for better stopping. I got to save money for the conversion kit.
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b5rt
Posted 2017-06-04 7:45 PM (#541524 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Location: central Illinois
That looks like a lot of Anti-Seize on those brake parts. Whenever I handle the stuff I end up wearing as much as I get on the parts.
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-06-05 3:46 AM (#541543 - in reply to #541524)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1316
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
b5rt - 2017-06-05 1:45 AM

That looks like a lot of Anti-Seize on those brake parts. Whenever I handle the stuff I end up wearing as much as I get on the parts.

Yes indeed !
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Greg P.
Posted 2017-06-09 9:08 AM (#541854 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: RE: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 769
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Location: Oley, PA
What is a good source for new return springs? I recently had one of my front return springs on my '59 Windsor pop off it's mounting and become loose inside the drum. Not sure why this happened. Either the spring has lost its springiness or perhaps it was not installed correctly. In any case, I'd like to replace all of my return springs with new ones if I could find some at a reasonable price.
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-06-09 10:32 AM (#541859 - in reply to #541854)
Subject: RE: Locking rear brake drum



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Posts: 1316
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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
Andy Bernbaum.
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Greg P.
Posted 2017-06-09 12:16 PM (#541860 - in reply to #541859)
Subject: RE: Locking rear brake drum



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Location: Oley, PA
Chrome58 - 2017-06-09 10:32 AM

Andy Bernbaum.


I tried calling Andy Bernbaum. They say they don't have springs for a 1959 Chrysler. Any other ideas?
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-06-09 12:47 PM (#541862 - in reply to #539225)
Subject: Re: Locking rear brake drum



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Location: So. Cal
I believe James (The Adventurer) was selling some a little while ago. You might try contacting him. Otherwise, I think ebay is your only hope if you insist on new ones. Actually, you could have a batch of custom springs made too. That is an option.
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