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Poower window glitch
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imopar380
Posted 2017-01-28 1:37 PM (#532538)
Subject: Poower window glitch



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I pulled the car out of the garage today for a warm up and a run. First time since early December but its a nice day with dry roads. Anyhow I went to put the driver's window up, and it started to hesitate then quit altogether. None of the windows will work from the master switch or their own switch, except for the driver's side rear quarter window which will go up and down from it's own switch. Everything else is dead. This same thing exactly happened back in 2009 on the way back from a California trip. When I got back home the car went to the auto electric shop and came back to me working. They said they found a break in the power feed wire somewhere, but it's been working fine in the nearly 8 years since then. ........ No power to the driver's master switch after testing. Funny that the RR window works from it's own switch but everything else is dead. Must be another possible break in the power feed wire.

Edited by imopar380 2017-01-28 7:33 PM
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imopar380
Posted 2017-01-28 4:37 PM (#532544 - in reply to #532538)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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So upon a little investigation, as I mentioned above there was no power to the main feed wire right at the drivers window master switch. I hooked up a wire directly from the battery to the power window switch terminal plug main feed, and presto, everything works fine. The power wire for the window circuit comes from the starter relay and it feeds to a circuit breaker mounted very high and very hard to reach above the left kick panel, and that circuit breaker is also for the power seat and lighter. Since both my power seat and lighter are working, at least I know there is power to the circuit breaker, so there must be a bad connection to the power window feed wire from there, or a break in the power window feed wire between there and the master switch. At this point I have not pulled the door panel to check the wiring inside the door and then through the rubber tube going through the jamb - another day will do. However, This does NOT explain why there was still power to the LR quarter window..... someone at some point may have put a separate power feed to it..... very strange.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-01-28 7:56 PM (#532552 - in reply to #532544)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Ian, there should be separate circuit breakers for the windows, the seat and lighter. Probably not a big deal.

There should be 4 power wires for the windows all hooked together to one circuit breaker. The brown powers the master switch and all windows from the master. The black powers only the left quarter switch. The yellow only the right door switch and the white only the right quarter switch. When all wiring is correct one can disconnect the master and power the other three windows from their door/panel switches only. This makes trouble shooting a whole lot easier!

Greg
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imopar380
Posted 2017-01-28 11:31 PM (#532565 - in reply to #532552)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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LD3 Greg - 2017-01-28 4:56 PM

Ian, there should be separate circuit breakers for the windows, the seat and lighter. Probably not a big deal.

There should be 4 power wires for the windows all hooked together to one circuit breaker. The brown powers the master switch and all windows from the master. The black powers only the left quarter switch. The yellow only the right door switch and the white only the right quarter switch. When all wiring is correct one can disconnect the master and power the other three windows from their door/panel switches only. This makes trouble shooting a whole lot easier!

Greg


Greg, the wiring diagram in my manual shows one large circuit breaker box with several terminals, for the windows, seat and lighter up under the dash board where the windshield curves around the side. I was able to see it with a flashlight from underneath, but there is no way I can get my hand up there. Maybe if I was to pull the trans button bezel and push button control out I could get at it but there is no way to get it from under the dash board. Here's a photo of the CB that Wizard sent me, from a 1960 Chrysler with the dash removed.

So are you saying that it is normal that the RR quarter window should work by itself then?



(CircuitBreaker.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments CircuitBreaker.JPG (198KB - 174 downloads)
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sonaramic300
Posted 2017-01-29 12:15 PM (#532590 - in reply to #532538)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Ian, I looked in the service manual. The circuit breaker is a 30 amp 2 terminal unit, W-9 supplies power from the starter solenoid, and W-1thru W-4 are individual power feeds the individual switches. All 4 of these wires are on together on one terminal. Sounds like a problem there and it looks like no fun getting there to fix it. Your idea of the shifter removal is good, but the empty space is pretty small for a hand but you could see in there.

Wire colors
W-9 black
W-1 tan
W-2 yellow
W-3 black
W-4 white
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wizard
Posted 2017-01-29 12:47 PM (#532592 - in reply to #532538)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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It's possible to work with the CB's with the dash and the push-button unit in place, BUT, it aint easy
I installed all the CB's in my car - the car had only the connector in mounted because it had no power accessories at all.

My guess is that there's a bad contact on the CB for the Power windows, just disconnect the battery and remove the nut and clean all the terminals.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-01-29 12:59 PM (#532595 - in reply to #532565)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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imopar380 - 2017-01-28 11:31 PM

LD3 Greg - 2017-01-28 4:56 PM

Ian, there should be separate circuit breakers for the windows, the seat and lighter. Probably not a big deal.

There should be 4 power wires for the windows all hooked together to one circuit breaker. The brown powers the master switch and all windows from the master. The black powers only the left quarter switch. The yellow only the right door switch and the white only the right quarter switch. When all wiring is correct one can disconnect the master and power the other three windows from their door/panel switches only. This makes trouble shooting a whole lot easier!

Greg


Greg, the wiring diagram in my manual shows one large circuit breaker box with several terminals, for the windows, seat and lighter up under the dash board where the windshield curves around the side. I was able to see it with a flashlight from underneath, but there is no way I can get my hand up there. Maybe if I was to pull the trans button bezel and push button control out I could get at it but there is no way to get it from under the dash board. Here's a photo of the CB that Wizard sent me, from a 1960 Chrysler with the dash removed.

So are you saying that it is normal that the RR quarter window should work by itself then?


Yes. The left rear, right door and right rear should all work with their individual switches and with no power to the master switch. Those switches get power via the black, yellow and white wires. The brown ( or tan ) wire powers the entire master switch only.
Greg
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imopar380
Posted 2017-01-29 3:00 PM (#532608 - in reply to #532595)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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LD3 Greg - 2017-01-29 9:59 AM

imopar380 - 2017-01-28 11:31 PM

LD3 Greg - 2017-01-28 4:56 PM

Ian, there should be separate circuit breakers for the windows, the seat and lighter. Probably not a big deal.

There should be 4 power wires for the windows all hooked together to one circuit breaker. The brown powers the master switch and all windows from the master. The black powers only the left quarter switch. The yellow only the right door switch and the white only the right quarter switch. When all wiring is correct one can disconnect the master and power the other three windows from their door/panel switches only. This makes trouble shooting a whole lot easier!

Greg


Greg, the wiring diagram in my manual shows one large circuit breaker box with several terminals, for the windows, seat and lighter up under the dash board where the windshield curves around the side. I was able to see it with a flashlight from underneath, but there is no way I can get my hand up there. Maybe if I was to pull the trans button bezel and push button control out I could get at it but there is no way to get it from under the dash board. Here's a photo of the CB that Wizard sent me, from a 1960 Chrysler with the dash removed.

So are you saying that it is normal that the RR quarter window should work by itself then?


Yes. The left rear, right door and right rear should all work with their individual switches and with no power to the master switch. Those switches get power via the black, yellow and white wires. The brown ( or tan ) wire powers the entire master switch only.
Greg


I guess there must be some other issue that prevents my other windows from working. As I mentioned, when I connect a jumper wire from the battery directly to the master switch feed terminal, everything works fine.
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sonaramic300
Posted 2017-01-29 5:37 PM (#532620 - in reply to #532538)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Ian, your test tells us about the 3 non working windows. Those 3 wires are connected together, but not connected to the circuit breaker. When you jump power to that wire at the master switch the power flows the other direction to the other 2 switches. You need to get to that circuit breaker. Who knows what has been done there in the past.
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imopar380
Posted 2017-01-29 7:31 PM (#532632 - in reply to #532620)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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sonaramic300 - 2017-01-29 2:37 PM

Ian, your test tells us about the 3 non working windows. Those 3 wires are connected together, but not connected to the circuit breaker. When you jump power to that wire at the master switch the power flows the other direction to the other 2 switches. You need to get to that circuit breaker. Who knows what has been done there in the past.


We had a club meeting this afternoon and put 3 heads together on this. I think you may be right..... OR the other possibility is this: The block up there has three terminals - one for the windows, one for the power seat and a third terminal for the power antenna and rear cig lighter. Since I don't have a power antenna or rear cig lighter, it could be that the three LF, RF and RR windows are hooked up to the correct power window CB terminal, and maybe that CB is bad or the connection is loose, and possibly the LR window feed ( which is the window that is still working) is hooked up to the third CB terminal and has power. I am going to get my camera scope up in there next weekend and try and see more clearly.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-01-29 10:55 PM (#532643 - in reply to #532632)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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There is no point in speculating. Let's get a photo and see what is really there. Ian, you will be able to possibly release that circuit breaker, pull it down and check it all out. Just disconnect the battery before you start!

Greg
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sonaramic300
Posted 2017-01-29 11:08 PM (#532645 - in reply to #532538)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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The wiring diagram doesn't lie. The 4 wires were on one post when the car was built. However,this car had a problem recently and no telling what the shop has done to it. Time to dig in and fix it right.
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imopar380
Posted 2017-01-29 11:15 PM (#532647 - in reply to #532643)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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LD3 Greg - 2017-01-29 7:55 PM

There is no point in speculating. Let's get a photo and see what is really there. Ian, you will be able to possibly release that circuit breaker, pull it down and check it all out. Just disconnect the battery before you start!

Greg


Yes, I have to get my camera scope back and check it next weekend.
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imopar380
Posted 2017-02-11 5:54 PM (#533776 - in reply to #532647)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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Today I isolated the issue, but it's not repaired yet as it started to rain just after I discovered the fault and so I put the car back in the garage. (No room to work in the garage!) Anyhow, as I mentioned I had this same issue about 8 years ago, and a local shop fixed the problem. They spliced a section of new wire in the main power feed line that runs from the circuit breaker to the driver's door, from the kick panel area and then through the door jamb and almost to the switch assembly, however they left about 3 inches of original tan wire from the switch plug to where they spliced the new wire in. To test the circuit I ended up cutting the wire where they spliced it at the other end at the kick panel, and tested the original tan wire coming down from the Circuit Breaker, and it has a full 12 volts. Since there were no breaks in the new section of wire that was spliced in, there has to be a break in the 3 inch section of wire that runs to the switch plug. Further testing with a jumper wire directly to the switch gives power. Hopefully next Saturday will be nice enough to finish the job, splicing in a new wire section right to the master switch plug module. This crude diagram shows where the fault lies.



(wires.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments wires.JPG (84KB - 171 downloads)
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-02-11 9:07 PM (#533793 - in reply to #533776)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Give me your mailing address and I will send you a short length of wire with the correct pin grip terminal on it. Unscrew the block and replace that wire properly. Should have it by next Sat.

Greg
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imopar380
Posted 2017-02-11 9:30 PM (#533795 - in reply to #533793)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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LD3 Greg - 2017-02-11 6:07 PM

Give me your mailing address and I will send you a short length of wire with the correct pin grip terminal on it. Unscrew the block and replace that wire properly. Should have it by next Sat.

Greg


Hi Greg, I just send you a PM with my mailing address. Thank you for that. I was going to try and pry open that original pin grip terminal myself and re-use it with a new section of wire.

Interesting that this still does not explain why the passenger side windows would not work on their own with out power to the driver's master switch, and yet the LR quarter window worked. I had my camera scope up in side the cowl this morning and was just barely able to see the circuit breaker with it. It didn't reveal much to me.
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imopar380
Posted 2017-02-11 9:41 PM (#533796 - in reply to #532590)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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sonaramic300 - 2017-01-29 9:15 AM

Ian, I looked in the service manual. The circuit breaker is a 30 amp 2 terminal unit, W-9 supplies power from the starter solenoid, and W-1thru W-4 are individual power feeds the individual switches. All 4 of these wires are on together on one terminal. Sounds like a problem there and it looks like no fun getting there to fix it. Your idea of the shifter removal is good, but the empty space is pretty small for a hand but you could see in there.

Wire colors
W-9 black
W-1 tan
W-2 yellow
W-3 black
W-4 white


I just noticed also that the W-9 wire going to the Starter solenoid is red, not black. It looks to be very original as it is all taped up with all the other wires going through the firewall bulkhead. I have another wiring diagram that is in color which shows the W-9 wire as RED. Perhaps a factory misprint in the service manual, as my factory manual also shows it as black. Or maybe my car is an odd duck from factory. It's a very early production model ( October 29th,1959) and I have found a number of things that are different from later builds.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-02-11 9:44 PM (#533797 - in reply to #533795)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Hi Ian. Got it, will do.

Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-02-11 9:58 PM (#533800 - in reply to #533797)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Ian,
Is your car CDN or USA built? If USA the power to that (those) circuit breakers comes from the main wiring harness and the main harness connection to the starter relay is via a 10 ga red wire. If CDN I have no idea!

Greg
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imopar380
Posted 2017-02-12 1:26 AM (#533810 - in reply to #533800)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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LD3 Greg - 2017-02-11 6:58 PM

Ian,
Is your car CDN or USA built? If USA the power to that (those) circuit breakers comes from the main wiring harness and the main harness connection to the starter relay is via a 10 ga red wire. If CDN I have no idea!

Greg


It's a US built car. My manual is also a US service manual. That wire is a red 10 gauge to the relay. The manual shows it as black, the W9 wire. See PDF.



Attachments
----------------
Attachments power window wiring.pdf (70KB - 183 downloads)
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-02-13 1:25 AM (#533873 - in reply to #533810)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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imopar380 - 2017-02-12 1:26 AM

LD3 Greg - 2017-02-11 6:58 PM

Ian,
Is your car CDN or USA built? If USA the power to that (those) circuit breakers comes from the main wiring harness and the main harness connection to the starter relay is via a 10 ga red wire. If CDN I have no idea!

Greg


It's a US built car. My manual is also a US service manual. That wire is a red 10 gauge to the relay. The manual shows it as black, the W9 wire. See PDF.


Wiring diagrams are just that. They are DIAGRAMS. They represent the source but nothing more!! 1960 diagrams have numerous errors in them!! Welcome to the REAL world!!

Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-02-13 11:34 PM (#533979 - in reply to #533873)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Ian, I mailed the wire this morning. Hope it gets there by the weekend!

Greg
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imopar380
Posted 2017-02-13 11:47 PM (#533980 - in reply to #533979)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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LD3 Greg - 2017-02-13 8:34 PM

Ian, I mailed the wire this morning. Hope it gets there by the weekend!

Greg


thanks Greg, much appreciated. I'll keep this thread updated next weekend.

Edited by imopar380 2017-02-13 11:47 PM
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imopar380
Posted 2017-02-25 6:57 PM (#534694 - in reply to #532538)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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Update...... the wire from Greg arrived earlier this week, so this morning was fixit day for the power windows. After more testing, it turned out that the power feed wire coming down from the circuit breaker does indeed have 12.5 Volts, but as soon as you put a load on it, the voltage drops to 0 Volts. Take the load off, and it goes back to 12.5 V. Since that circuit breaker is up in the top of the cowl under the dash , and is all but un-serviceable without pulling the dashboard apart, I ended up capping the bad wire where it comes into the kick panel. I then ran a completely new wire, using the front section with the connector that Greg sent me from the switch block and back through the door and jamb, into the kick panel, where I mounted a new 30 Amp circuit breaker, and then out through the firewall to the starter relay. Problem solved, all the windows work again. This still does not explain why there was still power to the LR quarter window, but not any of the other windows during that outage. After finishing I took the car out for a spin but it started spitting rain, so it's back in the garage until the next nice day.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-02-25 8:59 PM (#534697 - in reply to #534694)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch


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Good work, Ian!

Greg
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imopar380
Posted 2017-02-26 12:19 AM (#534708 - in reply to #534697)
Subject: Re: Poower window glitch



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LD3 Greg - 2017-02-25 5:59 PM

Good work, Ian!

Greg


Thanks again for the wire and terminal Greg.
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