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Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr
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Chrispy
Posted 2016-12-22 12:41 PM (#529510)
Subject: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Have any of you added shoulder belts to a car with the Chrysler/desoto 2dr roof line? got any pictures? I'd really like to add them to my desoto as eating the steering wheel in a crash sucks. I ate the wheel in my 58 new yorker years ago in a 10mph crash and i don't want a repeat.

Thanks for any insight on this.
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soiouz
Posted 2016-12-22 2:43 PM (#529518 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Chrispy - 2016-12-22 12:41 PM

Have any of you added shoulder belts to a car with the Chrysler/desoto 2dr roof line? got any pictures? I'd really like to add them to my desoto as eating the steering wheel in a crash sucks. I ate the wheel in my 58 new yorker years ago in a 10mph crash and i don't want a repeat.

Thanks for any insight on this.



I think Lancer Mike on this forum added them in his cars (even in a convertible), so hopefully he will chime in. I remember there was a detailed thread in which he showed how he installed them, and I thought it was really clever and did not require modifying the car so much.
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56D500boy
Posted 2016-12-22 2:43 PM (#529519 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Chrispy - 2016-12-22 12:41 PM Have any of you added shoulder belts to a car with the Chrysler/desoto 2dr roof line? got any pictures? I'd really like to add them to my desoto as eating the steering wheel in a crash sucks. I ate the wheel in my 58 new yorker years ago in a 10mph crash and i don't want a repeat. .


I understand why you would think you want shoulder belts. HOWEVER, unless I am wrong, I believe that the steering column shaft is solid/non-collapsible so there is a chance that in a severe head-on the shoulder belt will just hold you in place only to be skewered in place by the steering wheel/shaft, i.e. severe chest/heart trauma. Not a pleasant scenario.

I have lap belts in my 56 Custom Royal 4dr sedan and was thinking shoulder belts until I thought it through. Without the shoulder belt I *could* "duck" lean over to the right and hope the steering wheel misses me.

Drive very cautiously.

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GregCon
Posted 2016-12-22 3:44 PM (#529524 - in reply to #529519)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Really.....if you are concerned to that degree over safety, you probably shouldn't be driving a 1957 anything. I'm not criticizing you; every person should decide where they draw the line for themselves. But adding shoulder belts to a '57 is just ....not even close to cool. And probably won't add any real amount of safety anyway.

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wizard
Posted 2016-12-22 4:33 PM (#529536 - in reply to #529524)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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GregCon - 2016-12-22 9:44 PM

Really.....if you are concerned to that degree over safety, you probably shouldn't be driving a 1957 anything. I'm not criticizing you; every person should decide where they draw the line for themselves. But adding shoulder belts to a '57 is just ....not even close to cool. And probably won't add any real amount of safety anyway.



I agree totally Greg - the cars we love are not built for crash safety.
This is the reason why I check the brakes and steering at least one time before the driving season.

I'ts impossible to mount a shoulder belt in a hardtop, least from the safety side. The upper fix point would be too low and would most probably do more harm.

The only solution would be to mount modern seats from let's say a convertible and make sure that they are mounted really good.



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Chrispy
Posted 2016-12-22 4:40 PM (#529537 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Im not concerned about high speed impacts, in these things your dead anyways. Its the lower speed stuff. Like i said i had a low speed hit in the new yorker and bounced off the wheel fairly hard, lap belts are better than nothing but i'd like to prevent myself from pivoting forward from the fulcrum of the lapbelt. The roof line should be high enough for it. That said, I'll keep an eye out at the yards, a set of seats with them built in could work out nicely and strengthening the floor is easy. I can always recover the newer seats with the black/silver nugget cloth and black vinyl (516) to look more correct.


Looking at this crash picture, it shows what i want to avoid, look at how the wheel is bent at an angle, the driver hit it pretty hard and had an awful day. A lap/shoulder belt combo would help a lot, even if the rest of the car is not as safe. My girlfriend has a stiff spine (2 rods) due to childhood scoliosis, so i also need to keep her in place better. She's stiffer than most people, so its more dangerous for her.

Edited by Chrispy 2016-12-22 5:02 PM




(56 crash.jpg)



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ttotired
Posted 2016-12-22 4:52 PM (#529542 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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I watched a show on crash test dummies and how they have helped improve vehicle safety (it has the crash between the 59 and a late model chevy)

Anyway, it was stated in that, that the lap belts alone were more dangerous than no belt at all

I still have no belts in my dodge even though it is a 4 door sedan, looking at how the "B" pillar is attached, it doesn't look that strong and no real room for the anchor bolt anyway

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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-12-22 5:37 PM (#529555 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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I only have lap belts in my '59 Firesweep 4 door sedan and sometimes wonder if shoulder belts can be adapted to the B pillar located in a similar position to the those common on the newer cars, vans, pickups, etc. I guess I would be more apt to actually install them if I used the car more than I do. Right now it is used for just low speed cruising, shows, and cruise-ins. Very seldom am I out on the highway cruising at 70 mph. But, yes, I have done it a few times and am exceptionally careful. And, then again, it's not me I'm concerned about - it's "the other guy" who is rubber necking drooling over my car and not paying attention to his driving. I have already caused an accident where a guy was gawking at my car and rammed into the car in front of him as I was sitting still waiting to make a right turn onto the street he was on.
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GregCon
Posted 2016-12-22 5:38 PM (#529556 - in reply to #529542)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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I'll admit I sold my motorcycles mostly because I felt they had 'become' too dangerous for me. That's partly due to my lesser reflexes with age but also due to the increased number of cars on the road and the high speeds at which traffic flows nowadays. In any case, my solution to the whole thing was to shed the bikes. That sounds 'terrible' but in truth I haven't missed them much.

If/when I get to the point I feel the lack of modern safety devices affects my enjoyment of my old cars, I'll get rid of them, too. But I won't be seen dead with a shoulder belt on in a 50's Mopar, lol.

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Chrispy
Posted 2016-12-22 6:12 PM (#529560 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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The seat idea seems like a good way to disguise it a bit, 50's or not, i'm building a faster car and the belts would help keep me in place for the drag strip and autocross. Yeah autocross, SCCA has a classic muscle class that i will likely run a few events in just for fun. I'll be sure to post videos when that happens

I'm not quite as old as the rest of the site (37, girlfriend is 28) so i think i have a different viewpoint. I've been driving with shoulder belts for so long that its strange to me not to have it.
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springsweptwing
Posted 2016-12-22 7:59 PM (#529571 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Another way would be to use belts made for a convertible, as they don't have a center pillar , try looking up universal seat belt kits for convertibles something similar to this?

http://www.cjponyparts.com/seat-belt-3-point-retractable-with-push-...





Edited by springsweptwing 2016-12-22 8:00 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2016-12-22 9:27 PM (#529577 - in reply to #529571)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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springsweptwing - 2016-12-22 7:59 PM Another way would be to use belts made for a convertible, as they don't have a center pillar , try looking up universal seat belt kits for convertibles something similar to this?
http://www.cjponyparts.com/seat-belt-3-point-retractable-with-push-...


Watched the video. Probably as good as you can get without a designed-in restraint system.

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Chrispy
Posted 2016-12-22 10:59 PM (#529583 - in reply to #529577)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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That is perfect! Thank you!
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-12-23 12:30 AM (#529587 - in reply to #529583)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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I have looked at doing something similar, and I don't really like the solution to mount it to the roof. It just doesn't look very good. You could mount it to the roof and do 2 separate belts like the '69 muscle cars, but that is a real pain to use. The good part about that method is that you can stow the upper belt on the roof and get it out of the way when you are not using it. But I think the best option is to mount the upper belt underneath the upper rear trim. This is similar to the Mustang video, but a little higher up and further back. I would hide the retractor reel under the rear armrest setup, and you may need to clearance it to let the belt move freely on the inside edge. Another option is to use a front seat that has built-in shoulder belts mounted to it already. That way, you don't need to do anything to the car for the front seat. You can get a factory seat like this from a Sebring convertible. But these seats look a little out of place in our cars and can be expensive. And they require really solid mounts to the floor because of their weight.

You can easily mount belts to the rear package tray too, to get shoulder belts for the back as well.

I drive a '69 Toyota Corona as a commuter car so I use the original belts in it to keep me alive (hopefully). The original shoulder belts in this car are mounted to the upper rear trim, just like what I am suggesting. And it seems to fit and work quite well.
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-12-23 12:35 AM (#529588 - in reply to #529542)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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ttotired - 2016-12-22 1:52 PM

I watched a show on crash test dummies and how they have helped improve vehicle safety (it has the crash between the 59 and a late model chevy)

Anyway, it was stated in that, that the lap belts alone were more dangerous than no belt at all

I still have no belts in my dodge even though it is a 4 door sedan, looking at how the "B" pillar is attached, it doesn't look that strong and no real room for the anchor bolt anyway



You are right Michael, the B-pillars aren't very strong in our cars. But you can mount seat belts to them anyway as long as you strengthen them first. That is what I did to put them into my '61 Lancer and my '56 Plymouth. The first picture shows the custom bent 1/8" plate steel that I welded to the backside of my B-pillar. Never cut above the reinforcement as that will likely weaken the pillar. Always cut below the placement it if you have to. It is a lot of work, but once done, it is a great solution and works very well. In the pictures you can see that I added 3/16 or 1/8 plate to the back of all of these mounts. You can read about what I did here:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=57904&...

and here:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=54790&...

Edited by Powerflite 2016-12-23 12:41 AM




(RFUpper Mount.JPG)



(56Seats.jpg)



(RRUpperMount.jpg)



(Front Belts Bright.jpg)



(Right Rear Seat Belt2.jpg)



(Right Shoulder Mount.jpg)



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Attachments Right Rear Seat Belt2.jpg (39KB - 183 downloads)
Attachments Right Shoulder Mount.jpg (42KB - 151 downloads)
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GregCon
Posted 2016-12-23 9:13 AM (#529605 - in reply to #529588)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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I'd probably have a different view of life, too, if I had a 28 year old girlfriend. Then, so would my wife lol.
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local2Ed
Posted 2016-12-23 5:09 PM (#529641 - in reply to #529519)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr


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56D500boy - 2016-12-22 2:43 PM

Chrispy - 2016-12-22 12:41 PM Have any of you added shoulder belts to a car with the Chrysler/desoto 2dr roof line? got any pictures? I'd really like to add them to my desoto as eating the steering wheel in a crash sucks. I ate the wheel in my 58 new yorker years ago in a 10mph crash and i don't want a repeat. .


Without the shoulder belt I *could* "duck" lean over to the right and hope the steering wheel misses me.



:)



LOL, good luck with that plan.
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56D500boy
Posted 2016-12-23 5:24 PM (#529643 - in reply to #529641)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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local2Ed - 2016-12-23 5:09 PM

56D500boy - 2016-12-22 2:43 PM
Without the shoulder belt I *could* "duck" lean over to the right and hope the steering wheel misses me. :)


LOL, good luck with that plan.


Ya. I know. After reading the links people have posted in this thread, I am going to investigate means to install retractable shoulder belts for at least the driver and front passenger via anchors on my 56 CR sedan's B-pillar/post.

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Lancer Mike
Posted 2016-12-26 12:20 PM (#529778 - in reply to #529643)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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I have used an Andover Restraint 4-point harness in my hardtops and convertibles. I fabricated a harness bar in the back floor, for a minimum of drilling into the floor (no more than a regular lap belt). There is some added feeling of safety, but with a pivoting seat back, the harness' value in a crash is suspect. I remember when I used my '58 Plymouth as a daily driver, I would use the harness and wear a ski helmet (much to the chagrin of my fellow Rocky Mountain Region FLers)!



(Man at the Helm.jpg)



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ttotired
Posted 2016-12-26 5:17 PM (#529797 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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The thing with shoulder belts is that their anchor or top point should be level or higher than your shoulders.

Sorry Mike, but that system there will compress your spine in an accident because the forward motion of your body will cause the belts to pull you down towards the floor.

If you look at racing car harnesses, the anchor points are the rear parcel shelf or the belts go through holes in the seat above shoulder height.

Looking at those mustang ones, they would do the same and I think they would also slip off your shoulder as well

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matte
Posted 2016-12-26 8:28 PM (#529815 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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In the 80's I had a Monaro GTS (Australian Muscle Car) It's seat belts were connected kind of like the convertible Mustang in that video except they weren't retractable. I was thinking of doing the same but retraceable. The original setup in the Monaro was ok and didn't get in the way too much of people getting into the rear.







(holden-hg-monaro-interior-back.jpg)



(1970-holden-ht-monaro-gts-186s-coupe-35000-miles-full-documentation.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2016-12-27 2:03 AM (#529830 - in reply to #529815)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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There are some risks you take for the pleasures they bring. Most
will raise situational awareness and take appropriate action to mini-
mize such risks, but methinks body harnesses and multi-point belts
are pretty much on par with Hefty cinch-sack full-body condoms.
Just kinda kills the whole point.
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springsweptwing
Posted 2016-12-27 9:22 AM (#529838 - in reply to #529830)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Running an ancient car with no safety kit installed?

Good news! You can now fit your own safety kit, although we're not sure how effective this would be in a high-speed crash. Or a low-speed one for that matter.



(airbag-600x400.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2016-12-27 11:03 AM (#529843 - in reply to #529838)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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MrIncredible
Posted 2017-01-06 1:14 PM (#530626 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr


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I added a set in my wife's '62 Falcon. I used seats from a Chevy Suburban in the back and ones from a Chevy pickup in the front-the seats have the belts built in.

They work well and are comfy, and go fine in her car, with is modded. I don't know what I'll do with my Chrysler, if anything. I just figured I'd toss another option out there for ya.
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miquelonbrad
Posted 2017-01-07 1:02 PM (#530705 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Just to add my two cents (plus another penny for the new carbon tax- Grrr...)

I have seen vintage vehicles with newer style seats installed, and they don't look bad, IF they are done correctly. Putting effort into installing them in a correct manner is key, as is having the upholstery done well. I've seen a few with seats that have been recovered in reproduction cloth/vinyl and done in a pattern that is sympathetic to the original. They look great, and if someone looking at it doesn't know the vehicle down to every nut/bolt, they can't tell that the seat isn't the original one.
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GregCon
Posted 2017-01-08 10:02 AM (#530792 - in reply to #530705)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Seatbelts of any sort will prevent you from being thrown clear of the accident.
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57burb
Posted 2017-01-09 12:10 PM (#530898 - in reply to #530792)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Here is a very good clip showing what happens in THESE cars (featuring 1960-62 Chrysler products). It is sobering for sure.

"Broken Glass (1960's)": https://youtu.be/I5ORR_3J76w

Personally, I feel like if you are wanting a safe car to drive, you buy something new. They are built to be crashed. They have crumple zones, soft interior materials, and passive and active restraints that all but guarantee survivability in crashes that would have been lethal even 20 years ago.

You may be able to keep yourself restrained in a 1950s/60s car, but you still have dozens of hazards all around you. Doors that pop open, hoods coming into the passenger compartment, two-door seats that fold forward, unreinforced seat mounts, steering wheels and columns, keys in the dashboard, etc. We understand these cars are "risky" compared to new ones.



Edited by 57burb 2017-01-09 12:13 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-01-09 1:46 PM (#530912 - in reply to #530898)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Yeah, but I refuse to drive something new.... and I don't want to die or to kill off my family either. Thus the 3-point belts in my old cars. 3 point belts are the number one thing you can add to dramatically increase your margin of safety. If Christine had allowed Arnie to install them, he would still be alive and terrorizing high school jocks everywhere. So far I have only bothered to put them into the cars I drive the most, i.e. '69 Corona (already had them), '61 Lancer wagon, '63 Nova wagon (now sold), '70 Satellite wagon (already had them) and '56 Savoy; %use in that order. The other cars are not daily commuters so I just live with lap belts for the time being. But if they ever became the primary or secondary vehicle, you bet I would put them in. But you are correct about the seat latch. The floppy top can push you against the belt in an accident, so that should be addressed too if you put them in; and it isn't that hard to do if the seat isn't covered in nice material yet. Most of the anchor points in these cars are pretty good as long as the floors *aren't rusted* and you use a good washer on the nuts. It is the '60's cars that tend to have lousy anchors.
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Chrispy
Posted 2017-01-10 12:35 AM (#530986 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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For the time being i have a set of 68 new yorker buckets from a 2dr that have locking backs. I'll start from there.

Burb, your quite right, there are still a lot of things that can get you in these. I'm not expecting miracles, i just don't want to ragdoll into the wheel or dash in a lower speed impact. High speed offset? High speed t-bone? yeah... its not good. Also, 300g sighting at 1:03 in your video

Edited by Chrispy 2017-01-10 12:38 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-12 2:20 AM (#550199 - in reply to #529643)
Subject: RE: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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56D500boy - 2016-12-23 5:24 PM
Ya. I know. After reading the links people have posted in this thread, I am going to investigate means to install retractable shoulder belts for at least the driver and front passenger via anchors on my 56 CR sedan's B-pillar/post. :)


With some (but not all) of the worms put back in their respective cans, I finally got off my butt and ordered new retractable three point seat belts for the front seats from Seat Belt Planet.

I went with the chrome buckles and what they call a 90/90 retractor. Mounting point will be the base of the B pillar and about 5" above the top of the front seat on the B pillar.

The belts started at $72 each but naturally there were customizations and bits and bobs that I wanted and in the end for two it was over $220 including shipping.

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/seatbelts-and-accessories/3-pt-retrac...

I went with hardware kit No. 1 and their B-pillar mounts plus various sleeves and covers etc. Powder blue with navy blue covers (as needed)





I hope it works as planned.





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-12 2:27 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-15 11:07 PM (#550359 - in reply to #529588)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Nathan: While I was sitting in my back seat area today, I decided to peel back (cut) some of the bad headliner away to expose the C-pillar so I could assess the possibility of adding a shoulder belt there. What are your thoughts based on this photo?:





(56DodgeRightRearCPillarExposedToAssessSeatBeltAttachment.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-16 12:00 AM (#550360 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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That looks a lot easier than doing it in my Plymouth. I wouldn't attempt to use a pre-made plate. Just cut a plate to fit from the bottom where the metal is strongest, all the way up to the bottom edge of the next opening. Place your nut at a position that woks well for someone sitting there. It will probably be somewhere in the lowest opening. Once you drill the hole for the nut, you will need to get the nut welded in place, and drill some holes into the mating surfaces so you can plug weld your plate to the pillar. To get the plate into position back there, you will need to open up the highest opening. Then you can weld it back afterward. Another option for the back seat is to put the anchor in the rear package tray - properly reinforced of course.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-10-16 12:31 AM (#550362 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr


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Fing morons saying "oh belts are for wussies"... idiots... yeah and cigarettes are good for you.

Put some belts in these cars. I am shocked by the amount of classic cars you see smashed, are they magnets? wtf.

and yes lap belts are the best way to stop from smashing your entire face on the wheel/dash.

Some seats contain a shoulder harness in them, looks like plenty of options. for the cheap(not so great looking) GM truck seats have shoulders built in... :/

http://www.joesfalcon.com/page34.html

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/seatbelts-and-accessories/lap-shoulde...

http://www.julianos.com/Seat-Belts-s/96.htm

http://www.wiseguys-seats.com/21-3-point-seat-belt-bucket-seat-fram...



the pic shows a pretty cool setup but I'm sure its not cheap, shouldn't be to hard to make something similar.






(3-point-seat-belt-frames.jpg)



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Attachments 3-point-seat-belt-frames.jpg (24KB - 119 downloads)
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-10-16 6:53 PM (#550414 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



Expert

Posts: 3887
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Location: Northen Virginia
I kept mine original.. According to the manuals it should be some anchor point in 61 cars forward, but I couldn't find any...



(fl1.jpg)



(f2.jpg)



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Attachments fl1.jpg (233KB - 131 downloads)
Attachments f2.jpg (190KB - 135 downloads)
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b5rt
Posted 2017-10-16 8:17 PM (#550417 - in reply to #529510)
Subject: Re: Adding shoulder belts in a 57 Desoto 2dr



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Posts: 2519
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Location: central Illinois
I recently saw a 60 Cadillac 2 door hardtop with more modern seats in it that had the shoulder harness built into the seat back. The fronts looked ok but not perfect. The rear seats, also with the harness built in looked and fit terrible. Never saw the guy to ask him what they came out of.
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