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Bolt in Headers for FL cars:
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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-07 11:37 PM (#525552)
Subject: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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GREAT NEWS, Everyone!
My exhaust leak noise is from a cracked factory manifold! This means that exhaust headers are a requirement for this winter's refurbishment!

In my search, I really can't see anything that looks like a direct bolt in fit, with the torsion arm suspension, starter, and engine mounts in the way. Are there any that are, at all, even pricy?


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60 dart
Posted 2016-11-07 11:48 PM (#525554 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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you might want to try shorties from epay . about the only choice even IF they fit @ 135$-----------------------------------------------later
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longram60
Posted 2016-11-08 7:22 AM (#525573 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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I use Sanderson block hugger shorties on my '60 Plymouth.
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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-08 8:06 AM (#525577 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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No way I am paying $600 for a shorty, mild steel header. :wince:   If I have to beat on it or other persuasion methods, I try the epays. But all of them despite "brand" have necked down primaries...Has anyone actually tried to bolt on one a FL car?



Edited by DieselJeep 2016-11-08 8:10 AM
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wayfarer
Posted 2016-11-08 11:58 AM (#525595 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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Age old question...how bad do you want to solve the problem?
It looks like you get to do all of the investigative work and then report back......
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57chizler
Posted 2016-11-08 2:37 PM (#525606 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: RE: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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If the only reason you're looking for headers is a cracked manifold, why not look for a replacement manifold? Maybe a later/better factory manifold would work.
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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-08 6:14 PM (#525621 - in reply to #525595)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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wayfarer - 2016-11-08 11:58 AM Age old question...how bad do you want to solve the problem? It looks like you get to do all of the investigative work and then report back......


Haha. Ain't it the truth? But I am willing and love solving problems. I highly doubt the ebay ones will clear the oil stick tube, starter, motor mount, torsion bar. And for $150, I am not willing to arbitrarily buy a chinese made SST header that *MAY* fit. SOOO done pissing away money on this car for nothing but only more hope and a prayer it will work...

If I can't find one that another has used, and can recommend, I will make one. And if 600 bucks in mild steel is my only option for a guaranteed fit, I can build something MUCH better, AND buy the scarebird kit, AND calipers, AND rotors, AND brake pads... And perhaps save this community some money.

As far as a stock manifold, if I am spending the time to remove an exhaust manifold that has been on a motor for 60 years, I sure am not wasting the money and time to put another choke collar back on, when I can increase both power AND efficiency. And as my entire front end(fenders, hood, radiator and support) is coming off , and engine/trans out for a degrease and respray this winter, I might as well make a set of bolt in headers while I have plenty of room to work between the engine and frame.

If I make one, I can make more. Making the first one is the hard part. Copying the first will take a tenth of the time, so if even one guy is willing to buy another set at a fair price for my research, time, and effort, I will make another.

So as I want to share my capabilities, and contribute back to this community:

What would a quality, mathmatically engineered(helmholtz principal, ect), bolt in, exhaust header be worth to individuals of this community? If I have to make one anyways, again, the second one is near cake in comparison. It's is the fabbing of the radii lengths and rotation of the bends, ect., that is that is intensely time comsuming.

My design would be for a 361 in a 1958 Desoto Fireflite. Direct bolt in for this car. Other than that, your year, make, or model, I do not know.
I am a MOPAR newb greenhorn yet, I admit. Will not be full length primaries, and the collector will possibly be primaries parallel, similair to a modern vette factory header, given constraints of the engine compartment. Although perhaps I will pray for a tri y, if research says that is good for a mopar B firing order, and space restraints allow.

I haven't decided on T304 or ceramic coat mild steel. Will use a heavy gauge tubing in any regards. Primary size will be based on a stock/mild engine(for now). Perhaps 1 5/8", perhaps as big as 1.75, (I will be doing CFM calculations, ect.) into 2.5".

And before ANYONE spouts ANYTHING negative, about me, about veering away from factory original, WAIT. If you are a factory original only FL purist, and don't like the thought of quality, bolt on headers specifically designed for a 361 (or other "B" v8) FL car, WHY are you still reading this, anyways?

Make your call when I share the first pics of the completed headers sometime this winter. And please recall, my quality of engineering can be seen by a Google search of "4FB1". That Cat themed isuzu is MY doing. I even overhauled and modified the VE design Injection Pump. Most Diesel Techs and shops won't touch them.

Haha I love solving problems, and helping others out, if I can.

Let me know, anyone, everyone.

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Rodger
Posted 2016-11-09 12:02 AM (#525643 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


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Hola

We are reading that you want a better Exhaust Manifold and System than what you presently have.

Look at any 1978 - 1972 set of Exhaust Manifolds for any size of Dodge Truck or Van with either a 440 or 400 Engine. They flow equal to the best HP Exhaust Manifold from any GTX or the like.
They also will bolt to your engine --- with no "mod's" and clear every thing that you now find "in the wrong location".

https://www.1aauto.com/exhaust-manifold-and-gasket-kit-dorman-674-17...


The other part is --- what was the highest Power Rating of any 361 or 383 engine and how was it equipped to do this with a era 500'ish CFM 4 bbl Carb - Dual Snorkel Air Cleaner and the Exhaust System that you want to quickly replace ?




Rodger & Gabby
Colo Spgs

Edited by Rodger 2016-11-09 12:10 AM
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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-09 9:25 AM (#525680 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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I appreciate your effort to help. But I rarely do things easy, OR do I do what everyone else does. I am much more inclined to calculate, engineer and produce, especially when improvements and efficiency are easily obtainable(at least for me). That is why I have a Jeep CJ5, with an old school, non computer controlled, mechanically injected diesel, that gets twice the economy(@43MPG city) of a modern ECU controlled, gasoline 4 cyl Wrangler(@ 22 MPG city). And a #1 Google search result for it, too. Can't generally live with mediocre, and generally waaay overpriced options, so I create.

I still see a factory cast log manifold, designed by MOPAR as cheap and reliable, that the exhaust pulses have to slam into a wall, then make up to 3 horribly tight 90* turns before exiting into the exhaust. The exhaust pulse has lost a HUGE amount of velocity before entering the exhaust tubing. Again, if I am going through the trouble to remove a cast log that has been on for 60 years, I am installing something that will allow each cylinder to breathe as much as it's brothers. And for the money for buying and shipping a cast log, I can do WAAAY better.

And when I DO, if others want, I thought I would offer to copy my original design as that would be the time to do it. As long as I have a copy outside of my car kicking around, I will build one for others, and less than what sanderson wants by a substantial amount, probably @ 30% less, and a direct bolt in designed for FL cars. If no one wants another, that is OK too. But I like easy HP and efficiency.

The '58 Desoto 361 is rated at 300HP, with a horrible, non computer algorithm designed, factory cast iron 4bbl intake full of weird actute angles and turns the air/fuel charge has to navigate, an early 600CFM AFB carb, small valve heads(but will keep low rpm velocity up for street efficiency), restictive "choke collar" log manifold, and a 2 inch(but doesn't actually LOOK like 2") exhaust. With a good, proven, street intake as the Holley Streetmaster, or Edelbrock PerformerRPM(if it would fit underhood), A MODERN design of @650cfm vac sec. carb as a street demon, perhaps a mild cam, well designed headers, and a 2.5 exhaust system on these 10-1 CR engines, I would be willing to bet 350HP would be EASY, rather docile, and ALL of it reversible to 100% factory stock. That represents a 15-20% HP and efficiency increase.

ALL engines are an air pump, nothing more. Easy air in, easy air out, equalize cylinder flow, proper fuel metering= more power. ANY motor can be made to BREATHE, despite when it was first assembled, Sir. Just like the first hot rodders did with the old ford model T 4 banger, or the flathead V8 back in the late 40's.

Horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go? This guy made 600+ HP with a MOPAR 361. That is TWICE the factory HP rating.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopar-412-big-block/



Edited by DieselJeep 2016-11-09 10:18 AM
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Rodger
Posted 2016-11-10 2:38 AM (#525743 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


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Hola

You say that you have the 4 bbl 305 HP engine that is rated at 4600 RPM's ( Full Throttle - No Generator - No Cooling Fan Assembly and etc's ) and the max Torque is at 2800 RPM's ( which happens to be slightly higher that a legal Hwy Speed ).

Just think what would happen to your performance ( MPG is part of this ) if the engine Was Never Consuming 15 plus HP - just to spin The Cooling Fan. This is what happens when you re-move the solid bolted unit and start using The Silicone Drive Unit.



Rodger & Gabby
COS
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longram60
Posted 2016-11-10 10:36 AM (#525762 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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If you make some fenderwell headers, I'd be interested.
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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-10 11:12 AM (#525767 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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Drop your race car off at my shop. I'll get more out of her. EFI/carb/turbo/SC/diesel. Doesn't matter.

But a one off header, hope your pockets are deep.








Edited by DieselJeep 2016-11-10 12:48 PM
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target
Posted 2016-11-12 5:15 PM (#526058 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


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Posts: 10

1-5/8" primaries? The stock head exhaust port is 1-3/4inĀ². I'm looking into options for exhaust for my car, too. I don't see the use in block huggers, since they are so short, and I don't see any bigger than 1-3/4". I'm going to try B-Body HP manifolds for my car. There is the F.A.S.T. drag race series, factory appearing stock tire, and cars are running 9 and 10 second quarter miles @140mph through exhaust manifolds and skinny original size bias ply tires. Are manifolds really that much of a cork?
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5wndwcpe
Posted 2016-11-12 8:19 PM (#526072 - in reply to #526058)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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target - 2016-11-12 5:15 PM

1-5/8" primaries? The stock head exhaust port is 1-3/4in². I'm looking into options for exhaust for my car, too. I don't see the use in block huggers, since they are so short, and I don't see any bigger than 1-3/4". I'm going to try B-Body HP manifolds for my car. There is the F.A.S.T. drag race series, factory appearing stock tire, and cars are running 9 and 10 second quarter miles @140mph through exhaust manifolds and skinny original size bias ply tires. Are manifolds really that much of a cork?

 

Some of them guys spend big bucks getting those manifolds extrude honed too, just FYI.

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Rodger
Posted 2016-11-12 8:19 PM (#526073 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


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Hola Peter and All

Ever "Senior" MoPar of the mentioned era that uses The Big Block or Raised Big Block has a "Center Dump" Exhaust Manifold on the left Side. The Exhaust Manifolds
that you have written about --- will bolt to the heads ---- but will never fit the engine and the car.



Rodger and Gabby
COS
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longram60
Posted 2016-11-12 9:55 PM (#526082 - in reply to #525621)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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DieselJeep - 2016-11-08 5:14 PM



The Sanderson headers are actually $385 in mild steel. The $600 (actually $575) is for silver ceramic coated. The primaries are 1-7/8" dia. into 3" collector.
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target
Posted 2016-11-12 10:26 PM (#526088 - in reply to #526072)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


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Posts: 10

5wndwcpe - 2016-11-12 5:19 AM

Some of them guys spend big bucks getting those manifolds extrude honed too, just FYI.



That's $675 a pair, and worth around 10HP.
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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-13 7:23 AM (#526117 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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Awesome some people are starting a conversation about this.

I have been building and heavily modifying motors for decades. I promise when I had an exhaust gasket in my hand, or pulled off the exhaust manifold and had seen the exhaust port size, my design sure wouldn't be 1 5/8th primary size. Sounds like 1.75 is the correct size. Fantastic to know, ty.

As far as the sanderson $400 bare steel headers, they may be great. Perhaps they don't even have to be dented to get to fit, and the collector isn't pointing directly at a torsion bar, or the dipstick isn't in the way. Maybe you can even use the factory starter, not a mini gear reduction starter(which are expensive generally). Maybe an owner with a set mounted and an exhaust system installed would share some pics for those who are curious? I would be, as it will give me something to improve on.

However, for that much money, for me, I am building some.
AGAIN, I am building, smallish STREET headers for a NEAR STOCK engine, that will bolt right on, hopefully not capture the FACTORY starter, and increase HP and efficiency. Which they WILL do. I am hoping tp build longer length primaries than shorties, hoping for a tri-Y, based on the MOPAR firing order, if space allows. Simple, bolt in, designed for our cars, and won't interfere with anything stock, and will make more power, and give an awesome sound (but not brutal) with the right mufflers.

 Please stop with the unrelated diarreah on this thread, trying to sell iron logs, or whatever with the darn logs already. And do not put false info here trying to sell logs, like saying because a motor is a '58 vintage, you can't make more easy, bolt on or off power(like you did before). You tell me which of these outflows the other(not for our cars). If we agree, STOP, ALREADY.

As far as those guys running hand ported, polished and extrude honed log manifolds they have thousands of dollars invested into, and bias ply tires going 9-10 sec, they also have 20K+ in their wild, not really streetable, rumpity, 1400 rpm idle motor, and probably would be putting out 700HP+ with headers. To call what they are running "factory logs" is a huge joke, at BEST.

DO NOT try to say that extrude honed anything is worth only 10HP, because that is crap, too. SERIOUSLY. At LEAST 20. haha

I SHOULDN'T have to even SAY this, because it is a BASIC RESPECT for others thing, BUT seems rather OVERWHELMINGLY LACKING here at FL:
If you aren't speaking of bolt on header sets, for a near stock engine, being of any help, contributing to the TOPIC of this thread, or asking me to make some for you, or are pretending you know more than I do about fluid dynamic algorithms, engine air requirement calculations, or in terms you might understand, making more horsepower; but you haven't even built one stock overhaul by yourself but read on the internet alot, or ESPECIALLY if you are trying to sell YOUR products, skill and services, DO IT ELSEWHERE.

I am TRYING to help, contribute, and give options, and the "I know better than you with zero experience" idiocy and disrespect is EXHAUSTING.

No wonder there is very little progress or creativity in this community. Anyone tries to do anything with good intent, decades of experience, and god given skill, and a thousand inexperienced, internet savvy "experts" who soil themselves about that ashtray mopar made 3 of(I probably know where one is), find an excuse to diarreah everywhere.



Edited by DieselJeep 2016-11-13 9:57 AM
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KcImperial
Posted 2016-11-13 2:19 PM (#526145 - in reply to #526117)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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DieselJeep - 2016-11-13 6:23 AM

Hey, that's my pic!
It's the stock manifold Vs. Hedman 78030 full length header on my 1967 New Yorker.
They work great on a later 60's C body (even keeping the OEM starter) but the Forwardlook chassis is a complete different animal.

And the car those headers are in



(1967_New_Yorker.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 1967_New_Yorker.jpg (171KB - 218 downloads)
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target
Posted 2016-11-14 4:52 PM (#526237 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


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Posts: 10

Do you bend your own tubes?
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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-15 9:58 AM (#526298 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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EVEN BETTER! haha That's AWESOME! Full credit to KCImperial, owner of said picture I borrowed from the interwebs!!

A "luxury" car with Headers!!! WHY would you want bolt in/bolt off "easy breathing" horsepower for a heavy car? ROTFL LOVE IT! NICE old Mopar, Sir!!

Don't be angry with me, but my '58 Fireflight is getting a '68 Newport rear axle!! Bolts RIGHT in, with CHEAP service parts around EVERY corner in the USA!!! NO MORE "at the mercy" of pricy, internet only, parts dealers, and tempermental like I have NEVER experienced in 25 years of wrenching factory drum brakes for THIS guy!!!!!!!



I do not bend my own tubes. I am NOT a dedicated muffler or exhaust shop. I am a small custom/performance/restoration shop. If one is skilled at fabrication, summit or jegs ordered mandrel u bends work great, and >TIG< weld seams can be kept to a bare minimum. Do you have any idea what full on custom bent primary tube, and resulting headers would cost from a shop with a mandrel machine? I am hoping to offer bolt on headers for FL cars for less than the sandersons, WITHOUT using a mini starter. I will know more when my initial set is completed, and all can see for themselves that I am capable of what I am offering...



Edited by DieselJeep 2016-11-15 10:13 AM
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2016-11-15 3:46 PM (#526333 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: RE: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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I made a full length header set for my '64 Chrysler NY once, which has pretty much the same frame and steeringbox layout as the older Chryslers.
Used 2 sets headers, cut them up and rewelded most of the pieces together again.
One set was a Summit header marked as 'big Chrysler', which turned out later they ment 'Motorhome'.
The other set was a used header set for a B-body Mopar.

My main plan was to make a header that ended up between Tbars and frame, where they should be on a fullsize Chrysler.
But in the end I didn't get to use it because the car never got driven, but I also had great concerns about the driverside tubes running too close along the steeringbox.
Also, space was very tight between the Tbars and frame, which pretty much ment you'd have to run solid motormounts to prevent stuff hitting each other.
A better option would have been to route a couple of the tubes along the inside of the Tbars, to give the other tubes a bit more room.












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DieselJeep
Posted 2016-11-15 6:26 PM (#526349 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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WHEW that was a tight fit! Nice job though, ESPECIALLY FOR THE LENGTH!!! That looks great!!

People who have never done that kinda work have ZERO idea the time it takes to fabricate tubing and mandrel bends, especially the first time on a motor and chassis. Compound angles are a BIZZATCH! The steer gear and starter are two of my biggest concerns. TY for sharing the pics. Always good to study other peoples work. Again, looks great, other than what you said yourself could be an issue. I will be ceramic coating my personal set, MAYBE wrap it also as flite will almost never see rain. Would help a HUGE amount as far as heat, but shorten the header life if mild steel. Balances and meditation...
If I can work a tri y, MAYBE even have only after the Y part near the t bar... Maybe even a gasket there for easy to install, but want the design to be as much "bang for the buck" as possible. Which means tuned full length primaries. But that aint happening on a near stock 1958 Desoto...

Is this the part when someone randomly tries to sell us a fan clutch?



Edited by DieselJeep 2016-11-15 6:38 PM
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Fury 58
Posted 2017-06-23 9:04 AM (#542710 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


Member

Posts: 13

I'm replying to this thread, and hope people in the know can respond. I, too, want headers in my 58 Fury.

It is non-stock, but the mods are sensible and easily reversible. I installed a 451 ci stroked 400 B Wedge block mated to a 62 TF trans. It has the small Nippondenso starter, so there's extra room there.

I NEED headers, bad. The stock 350 log manifolds are a joke. Has anybody here dealt with a similar setup? I'd like 2.5" outlets and 1.75" primary pipes.

Thanks!
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Fury 58
Posted 2017-06-23 12:05 PM (#542715 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:


Member

Posts: 13

What about Sanderson headers.? Anybody install their DD2 headers in a forward look car 58?
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ColoradoFiredome
Posted 2017-07-26 6:15 PM (#544926 - in reply to #526145)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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DieselJeep: I am TRYING to help, contribute, and give options, and the "I know better than you with zero experience" idiocy and disrespect is EXHAUSTING.

No wonder there is very little progress or creativity in this community. Anyone tries to do anything with good intent, decades of experience, and god given skill, and a thousand inexperienced, internet savvy "experts" who soil themselves about that ashtray mopar made 3 of(I probably know where one is), find an excuse to diarreah everywhere.

I have a 56 Desoto Firedome with the stock 331 CU & Sanderson Block Huggers, a slightly modified CI 4 BBL Intake & a Carter 600 CFM Carb. Since 56 was the last year for Coil Springs, not T bars, they bolted on with no issues. Starter, Steering Box & Trans Support all cleared with no problems. They did not cost $575. 

While I appreaciate your offer to develop T-bar Headers for the rest of the community, inspite of our lack of progress or creativity, I reject your self appointed Expert Status & condescending attitude. I'm here for the information & support from this community of people with far greater experience & skill than I currently possess. Your superior tone & snotty comments offend me & are contrary to the whole point of this Forum. We can't help & provide information to each other with that kind of atmosphere. 

Build your headers, document it & post it here. I'm sure we will all benifit from your work & heap on you the praise you so greatly desire without your drum beating & self agrandizing.

My 2 bits.

Later.

 

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DieselJeep
Posted 2017-10-27 9:15 AM (#551169 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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Reject all ya want. I own the #1 Google picture search result for the Isuzu 4FB1 diesel. Meaning, Google "4fb1" and that is MY engine I built for my CJ5.
Because #1 google results happen to everyone, right? Ya know a BUNCH of folks with that kinda skill.

LOL

My snotty comments come from the disgusting greeting I got after buying a Fireflite after a 20 year hiatus. From 80% of the FL community being "more money that skill or sense" jerk-offs that pretend if you spend enough money, it MUST be "cool". Claiming absurd garbage like tapered axles and dangerous single circuit, overpriced ebay only brakes MUST be kept, 'cause "factory original". Implying that anything done for safety and serviceability is SOMEHOW "less that MY car" because they spend absurd amounts of money on overpriced crap bought from hoarders raping each other, "cause factory original".







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DieselJeep
Posted 2017-10-27 9:47 AM (#551174 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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and a freebie, despite whatever, the $100 ebay Stainless Chinese block hugger headers bolt right in, after moving the power steering line. and removing the plug heat shields. Shorty plugs, new wires, welding, fabrication, and SKILL required. And that 361 sounds AMAZING uncorked, and able to BREATH.

I only logged on to check LED light update threads, because SAFETY is more important to me than Nazi opinions.
And the helpful skilled folks usually quit coming here, cause the Nazis chase them off. Like me. Been months, and you didn't fail to keep on par with the FL community. ONE log in. Congrats.



Edited by DieselJeep 2017-10-27 9:48 AM
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ColoradoFiredome
Posted 2017-12-05 3:31 PM (#553754 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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Well, you've been on this thread since 11/16. Have you actually done anything yet? Love to see it if you have. Don't care bout Diesels or Jeeps. I suppose that the reason there's only been 1 log in since July reflects the poisonous atmosphere you've stirred up. All the chin music about folx who are so original Stock only seems hugely misplaced. You do realize you're in the Tail Pipe Modified cars section right. Few if any Stock Only folx on these threads?
So, look man. If you have something to contribute in the way of performance &/or Headers for FL cars with T Bars, Love to see it. If you only have Troll comments to contribute, maybe you should do that someplace else.
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ColoradoFiredome
Posted 2017-12-05 3:32 PM (#553755 - in reply to #525552)
Subject: Re: Bolt in Headers for FL cars:



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100
Location: Aurora, Co
<p>Well, you've been on this thread since 11/16. Have you actually done anything yet? Love to see it if you have. Don't care bout Diesels or Jeeps. I suppose that the reason there's only been 1 log in since July reflects the poisonous atmosphere you've stirred up. All the chin music about folx who are so original Stock only seems hugely misplaced. You do realize you're in the Tail Pipe Modified cars section right. Few if any Stock Only folx on these threads? So, look man. If you have something to contribute in the way of performance &/or Headers for FL cars with T Bars, Love to see it. If you only have Troll comments to contribute, maybe you should do that someplace else.</p>
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