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Alternator and charge light
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haspe
Posted 2016-10-18 10:30 PM (#523778)
Subject: Alternator and charge light


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I changed to a Mopar Alternator on my -60 DeSoto in conjunction with a electronic voltage regulator. Is there any way to still make the oem charge light in the dash work?
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imopar380
Posted 2016-10-19 5:30 PM (#523841 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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Not sure of the answer, but how did you mount the alternator?
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ttotired
Posted 2016-10-19 6:46 PM (#523847 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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No, there is no warning light circuit in the alternator.

Well, when I say no, what I mean is that you could do it, but it would be expensive (if you were paying someone) and probably ugly

For a long time, all mopars with an alternator had amp meters fitted instead of charge lights

Ian, alternator mounting is relatively easy if you don't mind sacrificing a generator mount

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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-20 3:13 AM (#523869 - in reply to #523847)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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ttotired - 2016-10-20 12:46 AM

No, there is no warning light circuit in the alternator.
Well, when I say no, what I mean is that you could do it, but it would be expensive (if you were paying someone) and probably ugly

Powermaster does an alternator (the PowerGEN) that looks like a generator (although a little bit bigger), mounts on a generator bracket with no modifications, and includes a terminal that you can use for the AMP light at the dashboard. I bought one for my car, they're not cheap, but they do the trick.

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/index.html
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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-20 7:50 AM (#523876 - in reply to #523847)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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ttotired - 2016-10-19 6:46 PM

No, there is no warning light circuit in the alternator.

Well, when I say no, what I mean is that you could do it, but it would be expensive (if you were paying someone) and probably ugly




You sure do know a lot more about electrics than i do, but what do you mean by "No" and "expensive"? i run an alternator (bosch) with charge light. it takes only few minutes to install, other than fabricating the bracket. works for me for almost 29 years and 100 000s of miles without any problems. converted a 60 desoto to alternator, that had a generator with charge light, (works with alternator) 2 years ago, no problems either. so what did i do wrong (or right?) ? i really want to know.

Edited by 1960fury 2016-10-20 4:43 PM
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udoittwo
Posted 2016-10-20 8:35 AM (#523880 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light


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For what it is worth, I used a 2 wire GM 10SI alt. Relatively inexpensive, common, readily available, and went from Gen. to working alt. with idiot light probably in less than 1 hr. using same belt. I bought an alt. bracket adapter but after doing that, I think I could have made one.
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57chizler
Posted 2016-10-20 2:28 PM (#523913 - in reply to #523876)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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The OP used a Mopar alternator and regulator. The only way to energize a warning light with this combo is to use a custom-designed circuit that senses low voltage and triggers the light.
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DepsilonD
Posted 2016-10-20 4:09 PM (#523922 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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I'm intrigued by this conversation, I may want to convert my '56 Plymouth over to an alternator at some point and was leaning towards using a Mopar alternator paired with the proper external regulator (rather than go with a 1-wire). Since there is no way to add a gauge to a '56 Plymouth (that space it taken some of the heat controls, etc) I am stuck with an idiot light in the dash. And if it is there, it might as well work. My gen was rebuilt and works grate so I am not in a hurry, but it may happen with my swap to a later 318 Poly/Torqueflite that will be happening in the not-to-distant future.

So it looks like the GM 10SI that Udoittwo posted is a good candidate. As is the Bosch (part number unknown) that 1960 Fury listed. Does anyone else know of Alt's that will easily integrate with the idiot light?
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ttotired
Posted 2016-10-20 7:17 PM (#523950 - in reply to #523876)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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1960fury - 2016-10-20 8:50 PM

ttotired - 2016-10-19 6:46 PM

No, there is no warning light circuit in the alternator.

Well, when I say no, what I mean is that you could do it, but it would be expensive (if you were paying someone) and probably ugly




You sure do know a lot more about electrics than i do, but what do you mean by "No" and "expensive"? i run an alternator (bosch) with charge light. it takes only few minutes to install, other than fabricating the bracket. works for me for almost 29 years and 100 000s of miles without any problems. converted a 60 desoto to alternator, that had a generator with charge light, (works with alternator) 2 years ago, no problems either. so what did i do wrong (or right?) ? i really want to know.


Nothing Sid, I also used a bosch alternator so I had the warning light circuit working as well

The OP didn't use a bosch alternator, but used a mopar one instead, no warning light circuit in it and to make one up requires fitting a warning light circuit to the alternator or putting a low voltage trigger system into the car to act (poorly, I must say) as a warning light trigger.

I do know a little about electrics, I am a tradesman auto electrician, its what I do for a living
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ttotired
Posted 2016-10-20 7:29 PM (#523951 - in reply to #523922)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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DepsilonD - 2016-10-21 5:09 AM

I'm intrigued by this conversation, I may want to convert my '56 Plymouth over to an alternator at some point and was leaning towards using a Mopar alternator paired with the proper external regulator (rather than go with a 1-wire). Since there is no way to add a gauge to a '56 Plymouth (that space it taken some of the heat controls, etc) I am stuck with an idiot light in the dash. And if it is there, it might as well work. My gen was rebuilt and works grate so I am not in a hurry, but it may happen with my swap to a later 318 Poly/Torqueflite that will be happening in the not-to-distant future.

So it looks like the GM 10SI that Udoittwo posted is a good candidate. As is the Bosch (part number unknown) that 1960 Fury listed. Does anyone else know of Alt's that will easily integrate with the idiot light?


The bosch one I used is BXC1233A, it was used in Australia (if no where else?) on the sigma and valiants as well, so it is still mopar unlike the delco (chev) one

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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-21 7:29 AM (#523972 - in reply to #523950)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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ttotired - 2016-10-20 7:17 PM

Nothing Sid, I also used a bosch alternator so I had the warning light circuit working as well

The OP didn't use a bosch alternator, but used a mopar one instead, no warning light circuit in it and to make one up requires fitting a warning light circuit to the alternator or putting a low voltage trigger system into the car to act (poorly, I must say) as a warning light trigger.

I do know a little about electrics, I am a tradesman auto electrician, its what I do for a living :)


i see. speaking of generator to alternator conversions, can i run a 55A alternator thru the amp gauge of a 61 plymouth that had originally a generator?
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wizard
Posted 2016-10-21 7:32 AM (#523973 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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That's about just over whats recommended Sid - they can withstand up to 50 amps, more than that it's perhaps wiser to convert the amp-meter to a voltmeter.
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ttotired
Posted 2016-10-21 6:06 PM (#524005 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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Not really a fan of amp meters myself, as Wizard said, you will be pushing it, but unless you have loaded the electrics up a bit, you might hardly ever get
up that high, volt meter is better and it reduces the length of the alternator to battery wire (you can go from the battery directly to the alternator, which you can do with the amp meter still in, but the amp meter will only show discharge)

Make sure you fuse the Alternator power wire, whichever way you go

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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-21 6:14 PM (#524006 - in reply to #524005)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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thats not what i wanted to hear but thanks Sven and Michael for the information. i might change to an amp light. never had any issues with that and it probably alerts you better than a gauge.
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55coronet440
Posted 2016-10-25 3:06 AM (#524322 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light



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I have a 440 w/ alternator in my '55 Coronet, and made a voltmeter to take the place of the ammeter so it looks like it belongs there.



(DSC00665.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DSC00665.jpg (115KB - 193 downloads)
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Resurrector
Posted 2016-12-16 1:59 PM (#528894 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light


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I went with a '89 Chrysler (Nippodenso) style alt, with no provision for an amp light. Does anyone know of a way to rig up a light to work, there must be some kind of low (and ideally, high) voltage sensing gizmo you can get for such a system?
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57chizler
Posted 2016-12-16 6:10 PM (#528909 - in reply to #528894)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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Try this:

http://www.electroschematics.com/9010/12v-lead-acid-battery-low-vol...
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Resurrector
Posted 2016-12-17 11:30 PM (#529008 - in reply to #528909)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light


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57chizler - 2016-12-17 4:10 PM


Try this:

http://www.electroschematics.com/9010/12v-lead-acid-battery-low-vol...

Thanks!!
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Resurrector
Posted 2016-12-18 9:26 AM (#529028 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light


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Guys, check this out, this takes it one step better, $13 US on EBay, 3 colour programmable LED indicator that tells you if the car is undercharging, normal or overcharging. I ordered one.

6v, 12v, 24v Programmable LED Battery level voltage monitor meter indicator J

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200843083721?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&s...

Edited by Resurrector 2016-12-18 9:28 AM




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Attachments image.jpeg (63KB - 199 downloads)
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skyhawk
Posted 2016-12-18 1:29 PM (#529045 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light


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And, then there is this:


http://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=LS-11
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Resurrector
Posted 2016-12-18 2:10 PM (#529050 - in reply to #529045)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light


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That would be good if you're absolutely stuck on it looking original, but I've seen a few cases when a vehicle overcharges - more dangerous potentially than undercharging, the battery can spew corrosive acid all over the engine bay, electronics and bulbs can blow out, it's not pretty. There you go folks, a device for either taste


skyhawk - 2016-12-19 11:29 AM

And, then there is this:


http://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=LS-11


Edited by Resurrector 2016-12-18 2:12 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2016-12-18 2:21 PM (#529051 - in reply to #524322)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light



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55coronet440 - 2016-10-25 3:06 AM

I have a 440 w/ alternator in my '55 Coronet, and made a voltmeter to take the place of the ammeter so it looks like it belongs there.


i like that! looks 100% original! very nice!
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skyhawk
Posted 2016-12-18 2:29 PM (#529053 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light


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For those with concerns about overcharging, you can always use one of these "plug-in" voltmeters in addition to modifying the factory "idiot light" to function as a low voltage light. Just remove it when you get to the car show or when you park the car on "cruise nights."



(voltmeter plug.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments voltmeter plug.jpg (6KB - 205 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-12-18 8:47 PM (#529095 - in reply to #524322)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light



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55coronet440 - 2016-10-25 12:06 AM

I have a 440 w/ alternator in my '55 Coronet, and made a voltmeter to take the place of the ammeter so it looks like it belongs there.


I like it too. What volt gauge did you start with? How did you make the stencil for the lettering?

Edited by Powerflite 2016-12-18 8:49 PM
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Resurrector
Posted 2016-12-20 1:29 PM (#529281 - in reply to #529053)
Subject: RE: Alternator and charge light


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Excellent point!


skyhawk - 2016-12-19 12:29 PM

For those with concerns about overcharging, you can always use one of these "plug-in" voltmeters in addition to modifying the factory "idiot light" to function as a low voltage light. Just remove it when you get to the car show or when you park the car on "cruise nights."
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58coupe
Posted 2016-12-20 10:13 PM (#529358 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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Don't want to derail this thread but in the U.S. ( at least where I have worked) Bosch electrics have a very poor reputation. One of my main reasons for staying away from British built autos. Sid and Michael, what are your comments, experiences with Bosch?
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1960fury
Posted 2016-12-21 8:33 AM (#529396 - in reply to #529358)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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58coupe - 2016-12-20 10:13 PM

Don't want to derail this thread but in the U.S. ( at least where I have worked) Bosch electrics have a very poor reputation. One of my main reasons for staying away from British built autos. Sid and Michael, what are your comments, experiences with Bosch?


well, when i bought my 60 fury many, many years ago i was warned "those old american cars will cause nothing but trouble". someone already changed to a bosch alternator and, funny, this was the only thing that caused trouble.

problem was it had some stupid heavy inefficient DRAW thru cooling wheel that worked against the fan and pulled air from behind (the header area) i had frequently bearing noises when hot and i exchanged them twice. when the new alternator started making bearing noises again i asked the bosch service if it wouldn't be smarter to change the cooling wheel to something that pushes cooling air from the front to the back. i was strongly advised not to do this as the alternator would quit within a short time and i would lose my warranty.... didn't sound logical to me and i changed to a home build push thru fan with a shroud. the bearing noise stopped and it works without any problems ever since.

Edited by 1960fury 2016-12-21 8:35 AM
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ttotired
Posted 2016-12-21 4:10 PM (#529434 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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First of all, from this side of the world, most English vehicles used Lucas not bosch electrics and (personally) I think lucas electrics are rubbish

Bosch stuff is German and is whats found on most German vehicles and as there is/was a manufacturing branch in Australia, a lot of Australian vehicles (but not all)

I find Bosch to be very reliable, although they do fail, if they didn't, I wouldn't have a job

As for what Sid has said, the fan system is designed to draw air over the rectifier first. Running a fan the other way will mean that it wont get the air flowing over the entire
rectifier like its supposed to.

As for the bearings, I use SKF fully sealed bearings in my rebuilds and never had a problem

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1960fury
Posted 2016-12-21 4:28 PM (#529436 - in reply to #529434)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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ttotired - 2016-12-21 4:10 PM


As for what Sid has said, the fan system is designed to draw air over the rectifier first. Running a fan the other way will mean that it wont get the air flowing over the entire
rectifier like its supposed to.



have you read my message? the bearing noise stopped and the alternator stayed cooler and hasn't caused any problems ever since (80+k miles) now it pushes COOLER air at a MUCH faster rate (big fan blades with shroud. the fan and SHROUD forces the air into the alternator and it MUST exit on the other end passing the rectifier. no way the ill designed cooling wheel that slowly pulls hot air from the header pipes can cool it better than the fan, you can now feel the air stream rushing thru the alternator.

Edited by 1960fury 2016-12-21 4:30 PM
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ttotired
Posted 2016-12-21 4:49 PM (#529438 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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Yes I did read it

Your mod worked for you, brilliant

As for the rest of the world, I explained why it was made to work the way it does.

I will add that Mercedes may have experienced similar issues or thought they might as the 70 ish models (not sure on years as they are not an interesting car to me) have a plate/manifold that bolts onto
the rear of the alternator and has a duct pipe that lets it draw air from the air cleaner/air box (struggling to remember where that pipe went) so it gets cooler air and is less likely to get filled with dust

Just to add Delco into this, Delco alternators are much less common here than bosch or lucas (Although you don't see much lucas stuff at all now) so, even though they are very simple alternators, they
are a bit of a pain here as parts can sometimes be an issue

I have used a bosch alternator on my dodge.

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1960fury
Posted 2016-12-21 5:01 PM (#529440 - in reply to #529438)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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ttotired - 2016-12-21 4:49 PM

Yes I did read it

Your mod worked for you, brilliant

As for the rest of the world, I explained why it was made to work the way it does.

I will add that Mercedes may have experienced similar issues or thought they might as the 70 ish models (not sure on years as they are not an interesting car to me) have a plate/manifold that bolts onto
the rear of the alternator and has a duct pipe that lets it draw air from the air cleaner/air box (struggling to remember where that pipe went) so it gets cooler air


nice, maybe they should have hired me as an engineer with a much simpler, cheaper and probably more effective solution that also cuts a lot of weight from the very fast rotating alternator pulley. typical benz smart ass engineering.
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58coupe
Posted 2016-12-21 10:16 PM (#529465 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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you know Michael, I think I was confusing Bosch with Lucas. It is definitely Lucas that has the poorest reputation here in the US, at least in my experience.
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wizard
Posted 2016-12-22 2:38 AM (#529475 - in reply to #523778)
Subject: Re: Alternator and charge light



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We have a saying about Lucas here in Sweden; "Lucas, the man who invented the dark"

I never had any problem with Bosch alternators, or other automitive equipment frm Bosch
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