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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-20 1:32 PM (#517176)
Subject: WCFB


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Freshly built 318 in my 58 Plymouth with dual quads. if you try to floor it, it stumbles and hesitates. any ideas of what is wrong? even just running 1 carb.

Thanks
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-20 3:19 PM (#517196 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Timing advance? Camshaft?
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-20 5:31 PM (#517206 - in reply to #517196)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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I don't have the vacuum advance hooked up, could that be it?
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58coupe
Posted 2016-07-20 6:00 PM (#517209 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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It could be the vacumn advance but most likely not as it would be mostly retarded as soon as the throttle is wide open, just like being disconnected. Does it also backfire through the carb. (too lean)? Make sure your accelerator pump is adjusted correctly.
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-21 8:35 AM (#517237 - in reply to #517209)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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It does not backfire at all. it runs great until you floor it. I disconnected the front carb, and just ran on the rear one, and as long as you are in high RPM's it will eventually clear up and go, but not with both carbs hooked up. I thought maybe it needed smaller jets, like it was choking out, but I do not know enough about these carbs, to determine that. As far as the acc. pump goes, it has 3 different holes to put the little linkage into, and I have it in the middle one, but not sure that is right either.
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-21 12:50 PM (#517248 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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OK, from experience here - I had a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 383 engine. The factory engine had a 2 barrel carburetor. I put an Edelbrock 4 barrel carb with a factory intake on the car and the engine ran fine but bogged under hard acceleration and when some engine RPMs worked up, it performed somewhat better but still didn't seem to have the "pull" I thought it should.

I learned the stock 2 barrel camshaft did not have the performance lift, overlap, etc. required for a higher performance engine. I put in a Sig Erson hydraulic street cam in and advanced the spark as high as I could until spark knock was just starting to come in under load and full throttle acceleration. This was roughly 10 degrees advance. The 4 barrel carb was a 650cfm if I remember right and I played with it based on recommended carb settings until I got the best performance I could manage which turned out to be fantastic. Pulled RPMs quick from a standing start and continued to pull like a banshee all the way to redline in all gears (Torqueflite) with 3.23:1 rear end ratio. I was running through the mufflers with "shorty" headers.

I'm not sure what you have other than a 318 with 2 fours but take the above info and try it if it's in the cards.
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-21 1:18 PM (#517252 - in reply to #517248)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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I had Racer Brown make a camshaft for this car, based on the Fury specs. 318 with 2 fours, for a 1958 Plymouth.
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-21 1:34 PM (#517254 - in reply to #517252)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-07-21 12:18 PM

I had Racer Brown make a camshaft for this car, based on the Fury specs. 318 with 2 fours, for a 1958 Plymouth.

Cam should be OK then. Timing? What ignition system are you using? I was still using a single point stock distributor in my Charger but an electronic would be better.
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-21 4:19 PM (#517265 - in reply to #517254)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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Yes, I am using single point distr., but had plans to put a Pertronixs module in it. Think that might be the problem?
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sconut1
Posted 2016-07-21 4:34 PM (#517266 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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Out of curiosity, did you replace the accelerator pumps in both carbs? The electronic ignition isn't a bad idea, but remember these cars came with points ignition, so I wouldn't change to electronic solely to address thus issue
. IIRC, the position you have the accelerator pump is correct, but for fun, I'd try it on the bottom hole just to see what happens.

What your describing is a very similar problem to my buddy Jeff's DeSoto, but he has a single 4bbl. We're pretty sure its accelerator pump issues. They aren't that costly and are available through Mikes Carburetor Parts. Just Bing that name and you'll find his site.

Oh...almost forgot. Check your points gap. Check the manual....I think it should be be 18 thousandth, but verify that. That may help as well. If you have a dwell meter, hook that up. Again, verify with the manual, but I think you need to be somewhere between 26 to 32 degrees.

Edited by sconut1 2016-07-21 4:55 PM
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-21 4:55 PM (#517268 - in reply to #517265)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-07-21 3:19 PM

Yes, I am using single point distr., but had plans to put a Pertronixs module in it. Think that might be the problem?


No, I don't think it's "the" problem. Again, from my experience my engine bogging was cured without changing from a single point distributor. I am just saying that electronic ignition is "all around" better.

I never had any backfiring, stumbling, stalling, or anything but a bog during hard acceleration which the different cam and timing cured after switching to a four barrel carb. I surmised that I was dumping more fuel through the larger carb than the engine could properly handle and from the results of my changes, I believe I was correct. I didn't change anything else in or on the engine like heads, pistons, valves, etc. I did install shorty headers but only after the cam and timing changes were made and the headers had no noticeable effect, but probably offered a little more exhaust flow efficiency.

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Greg P.
Posted 2016-07-21 5:34 PM (#517271 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: RE: WCFB



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Does the hesitation occur instantly when you floor it? Or is there a slight delay, then it bogs?

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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-22 8:49 AM (#517322 - in reply to #517271)
Subject: RE: WCFB


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it is at half throttle on, and I did rebuild both carbs, so everything in them is brand new

Edited by 58Ply 2016-07-22 8:51 AM
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-22 12:50 PM (#517338 - in reply to #517322)
Subject: RE: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-07-22 7:49 AM

it is at half throttle on, and I did rebuild both carbs, so everything in them is brand new

If that's the case, it appears that your bog comes right at the time the secondaries are kicking in. Which gives me the idea that they are dumping more fuel than the engine can properly handle. This is what I experienced with my '69 Charger - when the secondaries opened that's what triggered the bog. Keep in mind the secondaries are larger than the primaries on four barrel carbs and theoretically much more fuel is "dumped" along with more air when opened and the engine just can't take it. New cam and timing change (spark advance) fixed that.

Here's another experience I had back in 1962. I had a factory fresh '62 Plymouth Fury convertible with a 361 4-barrel. I was beat in a drag race by a '58 Chevy 348 Impala convertible and it ticked me off. I found a 2 four barrel manifold and carb set-up and installed it without doing anything else other than timing and carb adjustments. Wow - what a difference! But then I discovered the rear carb was only opening the primaries and the secondaries remained completely closed - did not have the linkage set properly. Ah, Ha! I fixed that and thought the car would really fly - but no - engine bog. The car ran better on 6 barrels than 8. Too much fuel and air. What did I do? Went back to the single 4, never looked back, and never raced that '58 Chevy again either. Yeah, I'm still ticked off that I got beat by that Chevy - never expected that from a 348 "Heavy" (big ol' tub of dung) Chevy!



Edited by Viper Guy 2016-07-22 5:55 PM
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JT Vincent
Posted 2016-07-23 11:12 PM (#517457 - in reply to #517338)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Viper is right. Have a look into the second carb. It could be a few things. I actually expect an over lean mix like a bad accelerator pump. There is a really easy way to check. Bolt off a line, have a buddy watch your exhaust. When the secondaries kick in, black smoke will pour out, if it's too rich. It it pops and loses power, it's too lean. Also, smashing the pedal isn't always the best was to jump. Ride the joule/kilowatt/hour curve. Racing a car in a straight line isn't just jamming your foot down and not hitting anything. You gotta know your motor. SHe has a personality.
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57chizler
Posted 2016-07-24 12:48 PM (#517491 - in reply to #517266)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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sconut1 - 2016-07-21 1:34 PM

Out of curiosity, did you replace the accelerator pumps in both carbs?


Not only replace but verify that they're working?
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-25 8:50 AM (#517545 - in reply to #517491)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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Could putting smaller jets in, fix the problem?
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-25 9:01 AM (#517547 - in reply to #517545)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-07-25 7:50 AM

Could putting smaller jets in, fix the problem?

Might help but all you can do is try.
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57chizler
Posted 2016-07-25 3:24 PM (#517575 - in reply to #517545)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-07-25 5:50 AM

Could putting smaller jets in, fix the problem?


Only if you can verify that the bog is caused by an over-rich condition. The bog could be caused by a lean condition; have you checked the operation of the accelerator pumps as advised?
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-27 8:30 AM (#517727 - in reply to #517575)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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Ok, I have strong streams of fuel squirting into the primarys on both carbs. should I be seeing something squirting into the secondarys also, because I didn't? not sure if these carbs work that way.
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-27 10:47 AM (#517738 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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I don't believe you will see the gasoline squirting from the secondaries as they only open after the primaries and I believe it's all up to the jets in the secondaries. The streams you see in the primary section are from the accelerator pump and there isn't one for the secondaries.


Edited by Viper Guy 2016-07-27 10:51 AM
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-27 1:02 PM (#517750 - in reply to #517738)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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So what do I do now?
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Phatton
Posted 2016-07-27 4:23 PM (#517759 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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Sounds like you have too much carb. Take it for a ride - kick in the 4 barrels. Take it home pull a plug - if the plug is black and wet you have a rich condition and need either smaller jets or smaller carbs. Are the carbs on it the stock carbs that were available for that engine package? Do you know their CFM rating? Did you build the engine to stock specs or did you improve the heads and cam? A stock 318 will have trouble using much more than 675 CFM total - anymore than that will cause it to run rich and bog down.
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-07-27 4:44 PM (#517760 - in reply to #517750)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-07-27 12:02 PM

So what do I do now?


Have you checked the timing? Is it set at 10 degrees BTC (advance)? Is the point gap at approximately .018 inch? If so and you are not getting any spark knock, advance the timing to 12 degrees BTC and see if there is any improvement - keep going until you hear spark knock or "pinging" under hard acceleration and go no farther. In fact you should back off a little to where there is little or no spark knock. Set the timing with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged off and reconnect after the timing is set.

If none of this works and you are still getting the bog without any type of improvement, check with Racer Brown and ask if they have carburetor recommendations/size/settings, etc. to go with your cam in your engine. They may be able to suggest jet sizes in both the primaries and secondaries. Ask about any recommendation regarding advancing the cam with respect to the crank. This is done with an offset bushing in the cam sprocket. Advancing the cam gives quicker acceleration and retarding the cam gives more top end.

If anyone else has suggestions, they may be better than what I have said. I'm going strictly from my drag racing days back in the '60s in stock NHRA classes which required stock ignition systems, stock carburetors, stock cams, etc. but we were able to adjust and re-size the "innards" to whatever worked best for us.

Good luck!
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Mopar1
Posted 2016-07-28 10:50 AM (#517810 - in reply to #517760)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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As Phatton said, You have dual quads, but what dual quads, how much total CFM?, are you set up with progressive or non-progressive linkage? Is the linkage dialed in right, and the carbs set up correctly for 2X4s?
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-28 1:57 PM (#517829 - in reply to #517810)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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It will bog, just with one carb running, unless I am into high RPM's. the carbs are 62 wcfb's
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58coupe
Posted 2016-07-28 5:11 PM (#517846 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Here is one more thought, you are using almost 60 year old carbs. Did you have them rebuilt? Are you sure that none of the internal passages aren't plugged?
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58Ply
Posted 2016-07-29 4:50 PM (#517908 - in reply to #517846)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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I rebuilt them myself
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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-17 12:59 PM (#519231 - in reply to #517908)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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I think they might need smaller jets
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ronbo97
Posted 2016-08-17 3:26 PM (#519241 - in reply to #517829)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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58Ply - 2016-07-28 1:57 PM It will bog, just with one carb running, unless I am into high RPM's. the carbs are 62 wcfb's

WCFBs were not used after '58. If they are from '62, they are AFBs.

Ron

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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-18 8:55 AM (#519287 - in reply to #519241)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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they are most definetly WCFB's. These are Chevrolet carbs, which they used, up to 1965.
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wayfarer
Posted 2016-08-18 11:31 AM (#519295 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Check with these guys: http://www.thecarburetorshop.com
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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-18 5:50 PM (#519324 - in reply to #519295)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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ok. talked to the man at the carb shop. he said the carbs are too big, which causes it to pull more air and less fuel, so I have a lean condition. he said these carbs are 500's, and I need 380's. wonder if I could make restrictor plates, and that would fix the carbs I have?
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-08-18 8:32 PM (#519337 - in reply to #519324)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-08-18 4:50 PM

ok. talked to the man at the carb shop. he said the carbs are too big, which causes it to pull more air and less fuel, so I have a lean condition. he said these carbs are 500's, and I need 380's. wonder if I could make restrictor plates, and that would fix the carbs I have?


I'm not too sure I'd trust your carb guy - sounds like hogwash to me. I may be wrong but I have never heard of a 380 four barrel carb assuming he's referring to CFM.
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Finsinthemirror
Posted 2016-08-19 1:08 AM (#519358 - in reply to #519337)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Weren't the factory dual quad set-ups made to run 2 500 cfm carbs?
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Shep
Posted 2016-08-19 7:27 AM (#519370 - in reply to #519358)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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I believe the original Wcfb carb was 450 cfm.
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wayfarer
Posted 2016-08-19 10:36 AM (#519377 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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There is a lot of rumor but no real facts regarding the CFM ratings of early carbs. I do believe that Holley started the numbers game in the late 60's and Carter followed suite.
You can compare throttle and venturi size to a known sized carb and maybe be close.

Keep in mind when your using DUAL carbs with 8 venturies they effectively reduce the engine created vacuum under each carb significantly, compared to the same size single carb on the same engine, so a carb rated at 500cfm as a single carb probably flows less than 350cfm as a twin carb, if your new to dual quad set-ups your going to be thinking 2 500cfm carbs equals 1000cfm, in reality your looking at about 700cfm-750cfm , and two 600cfm carbs flow about 800-850cfm due to the reduced vacuum signal under each carb.
I've used both sizes and got good results from both. the 500cfm might be easier to tune for most applications but either will work.
Consider that 4 barrel carbs are rated at 1.5" of vacuum so doubling the available number of venturies from 4 to 8 effectively reduces the vacuum by at least 40% thus each carb will flow less air thru each venturi, while a single 500 cfm rated carb flows 500 cfm at 1.5 inches of vacuum it is only flowing about 365 cfm at a bit less than half the draw, like it would see in a dual quad setup at W.O.T.

I see no reason, assuming that everything else is working proper, for your carbs to not work if they are well adjusted on progressive linkage. I have had/seen many 1x4 setups produce a bog when the secondary's are opened at too low of rpm and adjusting timing has helped; opening too early simply creates a loss of vacuum and timing suffers.
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51coronet
Posted 2016-08-19 2:39 PM (#519384 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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I think you have too much carb for that engine. Use this formula and you can assume 100% efficiency for the heck of it and see you have too much carb. Also accelerator pump + correctly adjusted spring should give you a nice squirt of fuel when you hit the pedal.

318 x 5500 / 3456 = 506 (you can multiple this result by what you think the volumetric efficiency is which is not likely 1. more likely between .7 and .9. It is Safe to assume 500cfm will be plenty for your engine. Race tuned engines will achieve more than 100% efficiency so a bigger carb will be used.

The formula is as follows
Cubic inches x max rpm / 3456. 3456 is a constant for 4 cycle engines. It is the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot multiplied by 2 since the crank has to spin 2 full revolutions in a 4 cycle engine to reopen the intake valve. This causes the final number
of cfm to be smaller. In a 2 cycle engine you would use 1728 since the crank is spinning 1 full rotation to reopen the intake valve and in turn causing the cfm need to be greater. 1 cubic foot = 12 x 12 x12 =1728 cubic inches (2 cycle) 12x12x12 x 2=3456(4 cycle)

We have to use 3456 in order to get from inches to feet in the final result. For you metric guys the formula will be a little different but similar approach depending on what is being converted.
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57chizler
Posted 2016-08-19 3:17 PM (#519389 - in reply to #519287)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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58Ply - 2016-08-18 5:55 AM

they are most definetly WCFB's. These are Chevrolet carbs, which they used, up to 1965.


WCFB's on a '65 Chebby? Have to be Corvette.

Edited by 57chizler 2016-08-19 3:24 PM
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wayfarer
Posted 2016-08-20 11:26 AM (#519440 - in reply to #517176)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Yeah, shiverlay was still using WCFB in 1965, and not just on a Corvette. Go figure.
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Finsinthemirror
Posted 2016-08-20 4:34 PM (#519448 - in reply to #519440)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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So if the cam and and everything in the motor is right. can they be re-jetted or would finding correct 57-58 mopar dual wcfbs be the right answer? The original factory set-ups worked without bogging down...
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-08-20 9:20 PM (#519458 - in reply to #519448)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Finsinthemirror - 2016-08-20 3:34 PM

So if the cam and and everything in the motor is right. can they be re-jetted or would finding correct 57-58 mopar dual wcfbs be the right answer? The original factory set-ups worked without bogging down...


The answer is "yes" and "yes". There has got to be a way to eliminate the bogging and should be able to be accomplished if everything else is "right".
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2016-08-21 10:01 AM (#519486 - in reply to #519448)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Finsinthemirror - 2016-08-19 10:34 PM So if the cam and and everything in the motor is right. can they be re-jetted or would finding correct 57-58 mopar dual wcfbs be the right answer? The original factory set-ups worked without bogging down...

After I read the full thread I came to the carburetor shop LLC and read the general informtion. There is a good essay about using a chebby V8 AFB on a Puntiac V8. It's because the (weighted) air valve for the secondary doesn't fit the fuel requirement curveof the Puntiac the Puntiac V8 shows hesitations and boging while he secondaries kick in. In my opinion the best is to get a pair of 1958 Plymouth WCFB. It's because some WCFB had vacuum controlled secondaries and others weighted air valves. The WCFB in e.g. my 1956 NY has vacuum controlled secondaries and is working perfect with my 354 Fire Power (original, factory set up).

God luck!

Dieter

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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-27 9:35 AM (#519937 - in reply to #519486)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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I tried to find the original carbs, and they are stupid expensive, if you can even find them. i thought the carbs i had were so close, that they would work. really wished i could do something to make these work.
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grunau
Posted 2016-08-27 10:56 AM (#519943 - in reply to #519937)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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Hi
Do you have the Carb numbers? Perhaps I can do a spec comparison to see how far your carbs are away from the orig 58's WCFB's were never large carbs to begin with....
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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-29 8:46 AM (#520081 - in reply to #519943)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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is it on that little triangle aluminum tag?
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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-30 8:46 AM (#520155 - in reply to #520081)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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3697-5 3846247 B4. info on that tag
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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-30 5:43 PM (#520183 - in reply to #520155)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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Any info please?
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57chizler
Posted 2016-08-31 12:45 PM (#520236 - in reply to #520155)
Subject: Re: WCFB



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Carburetor, WCFB 3697S GM 3846247 327/350 w/MT 1965



(3846247.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 3846247.jpg (133KB - 19 downloads)
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58Ply
Posted 2016-08-31 1:17 PM (#520239 - in reply to #520236)
Subject: Re: WCFB


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What CFM are these?
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