The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Grounding The Gauges
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Electrical, Battery and ChargingMessage format
 
matte
Posted 2016-07-14 4:48 AM (#516641)
Subject: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
Probably a silly question but do the gauges and radio on a 58 Plymouth ground by being in and touching the metal dash cut outs?

I'm looking at the wiring diagram for gauges and acc and they all have the ground symbol but when I look behind the gauges I see no obvious grounding wires.




Edited by matte 2016-07-14 4:49 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2016-07-14 6:15 AM (#516643 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
The gauges dosn't need to be grounded (exeption for the eventual integration of the voltage limiter in one gauge). The gauges gets a feed from the voltage limiter and then they are grounded throug the senders (tank, oil pressure, temperature), the amp-gauge don't need a ground at all as it detects the current in a +12VDC wire.

The radio needs a ground, but the chassis of the radio have Contact to the dashboard in so many places so it doesn't normally need a ground wire.
All the modern radio/CD/player units have a separate ground wire though.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2016-07-16 6:29 PM (#516849 - in reply to #516643)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Expert

Posts: 3768
200010005001001002525
Location: NorCal

The '58 has no IVR but the dash needs to be grounded for the instrument lights and indicator lights.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-07-17 8:18 PM (#516939 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
Sorry, what is IVR?

I got the multimeter out and had OHMS reading at the fuel sender.. Tested the wire going to the sender with the ignition on and it was dead.. Then I tested 12V at the gauge power going out and it was dead and so was the feed going in..

For some reason a new connection wire had been made and it was dead. I made a new one to the ignition block then retested. Disconnected the sensor again and going by memory nothing happened at the gauge. Then grounded the sensor wire and saw the needle jump to a bit above the empty level but then stop.. Now it won't move from that position.

I'm thinking that being that these gauges work off the electro magnet type principle, that the needle is just stuck.. If the gauge was broken wouldn't it just drop back down to empty and not be stuck above empty?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2016-07-18 1:47 AM (#516954 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
IVR is short for voltage regulator. The gauge must have a +VDC on the ingoing terminal and then depending on the actual resistance in the sender to ground -VDC the needle in the gauge will stop at this reading.

Althoug not recomended, you can ground the sender wire and the gauge needle will (should) go to the max Reading. This is not recommended since the needle will perhaps jump to the max Reading and the gauge can be damaged.

If the needle is frozen, then its either a rust (dirt) issue or a fryed coil in the gauge

You didn't feed +12VDC to the sender connection?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-07-18 3:19 AM (#516962 - in reply to #516954)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
wizard - 2016-07-18 1:47 AM

You didn't feed +12VDC to the sender connection?



You mean on the back of the gauge? Nah I hooked up the 12VDC to the wire that was hanging down, it also had 3 other spare terminals with it. Then on the other side of the gauge was the single pink wire that runs to the sender.. So if you were looking at the back of the gauge when looking from under the dash the pink sender wire is on the left of the gauge back and the 12VDC is on the right side....

I did ground the sender wire and that's when it went to a quarter then stopped.. Now I'm in a panic that I killed the gauge because it didn't go back down either. Yay YouTube mechanics!!!!!!!




Edited by matte 2016-07-18 3:20 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2016-07-18 1:37 PM (#516990 - in reply to #516939)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Expert

Posts: 3768
200010005001001002525
Location: NorCal
matte - 2016-07-17 5:18 PM

Sorry, what is IVR?


Instrument Voltage Regulator

Not used in '58.



I made a new one to the ignition block then retested. Disconnected the sensor again and going by memory nothing happened at the gauge. Then grounded the sensor wire and saw the needle jump to a bit above the empty level but then stop.. Now it won't move from that position.


Like wizard said, when the sender wire is grounded the gauge should go to full scale; if not, the gauge is faulty or the ground is weak.

Edited by 57chizler 2016-07-18 1:38 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-07-18 5:06 PM (#517008 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
It could be a weak ground because I'm finding corrosion on some connections etc.. Is there anyway to check the gauge for faults?

Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2016-07-19 4:21 PM (#517093 - in reply to #517008)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Expert

Posts: 3768
200010005001001002525
Location: NorCal

If the ground is questionable, run a temporary wire directly from the battery (-) terminal to the gauge sender terminal.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ronbo97
Posted 2016-07-19 6:17 PM (#517100 - in reply to #517093)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges


Expert

Posts: 4034
2000200025
Location: Connecticut

How is your firewall to engine block ground wire ? Verify that it is connected.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-07-19 6:51 PM (#517105 - in reply to #517100)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
I'll do the test straight from the battery - terminal and see how it goes.

I looked at the ground wire and it has been spray painted over so I'll give it a clean up.. However I did notice another wire under the hood about 10amp size bolted to the firewall but no longer connected to nothing. It is positioned just near where the hole for the transmission cable for the push buttons. I have no idea but I guess it's some type of grounding.

Thanks for the clues so far..




Edited by matte 2016-07-20 12:08 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-07-24 10:28 PM (#517522 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
I want to make sure my sender unit has a good ground. The tank and straps have been painted and there is also cover up hidden problem black tar all in that area. I have an electric fuel pump near the sender that runs a ground wire to a screw that holds in the tail light bezel. That screw also acts as a ground from my tail light. (car trunk is also coat in the thick sound deadener)
My question is can I share the one ground? Another words run a ground wire from the sender to the ground of the electric fuel pump that goes to the ground for the tail light.. Is that ok or is it going to be a problem?

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2016-07-25 1:35 AM (#517530 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Any good clean surface of the frame or the body will do as ground, there should not be any issues if you share ground with other Equipments.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-07-25 1:52 AM (#517531 - in reply to #517530)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
Cool, thanks for that.. I'm hoping my tank is just a bad ground..

Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-08-08 1:18 AM (#518574 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: RE: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
Guys I've uploaded a couple of pics of my gauge what I think is working now. Although I have a couple of questions for members who knows this style of gauge. 58 Plymouth Belv

In the first pics the ignition is off and the needle is at rest.. Does it go that far back only when it's at rest with the ignition off or does it go way back from the "O" empty symbol when it's real bone dry empty?

In the 2nd photo is when the ignition is on.. I have no idea how much fuel is in the tank but I guess it's about right.. When I went up a step long hill it started coughing and carrying on until I levelled out. The coughing and what the gauge is reading do you think that would be having little fuel which has gathered to the back of the tank and the fuel pickup is starving?



(IMG_5589.JPG)



(IMG_5590.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_5589.JPG (238KB - 183 downloads)
Attachments IMG_5590.JPG (244KB - 184 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2016-08-08 10:06 AM (#518588 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Expert

Posts: 1739
100050010010025
Location: Alaska
Take along an extra can of gas and drive it until it quits. Then you will know it is empty.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-08-08 8:21 PM (#518652 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
I can't really do that because I live in the city and will cop so much abuse holding up traffic. It takes a long time to get to out of the city suburbs.. Also the car is not registered yet and am just getting it ready.. I was hoping if anyone had even an indication because I'm still working out if my gauge has problems...






Edited by matte 2016-08-08 8:25 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2016-08-09 1:42 AM (#518673 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Matte, fill up the tank to the maximum. Note the odometer numbers, drive 300 miles and refill the tank again, note the odometer numbers. During the time that you drive the car, take notes of how many miles you drove when the gauge shows 3/4, 1/2 and 1/4. This will help you understand if the gauge is totally off or Close to correct.

If you have a 23 gallon tank, then you should have plenty of "reserve" after 300 miles and you will also understand the consumption/milage.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
ttotired
Posted 2016-08-09 5:29 PM (#518701 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8443
50002000100010010010010025
Location: Perth Australia
Yep Wizard is right
You must remember, your talking about a Gauge, not a meter, its there to give an indication

Every one of these old cars fuel gauges will perform differently, so its a matter of learning your gauge (just like in the old days)

Provided it reads something, leave it and move on to whats keeping it off the road

Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-08-09 7:33 PM (#518708 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
I know what you mean but the bigger issues that are keeping it off the road require a mechanic.. I'm just getting back on my feet from the last lot of work where a mechanic screwed me over for thousands. I'm doing the smaller jobs I can in the meantime.

I only just got the needle to move with the ignition on and off and that was only by touching the needle to see if it was stuck.. I tested everything else and it pointed to the gauge(hence needle stuck). There is a couple of problems in this area I'm trying to work out.. When I go up a steep hill it starts to cough and carry on so on an "average" I was seeing if the needle reading shown would be correct with a small amount of fuel left and being pushed to the back of the tank.. It's not an under load problem..

Also working out how the gauge moves from the empty symbol to where it lies at rest means it has fuel in between that area or anything past the "0" symbol is just the gauge moving to the rest position.. My old GMH vehicle's gauge, once past E still has quite a few more miles and I've never had it cough and splutter up a hill. Or if the gauge itself has a problem and is going too far back..

Road testing fuel problems is ok but where I live would be like breaking down in New York City. Nowhere to pull over, lots of impatient idiots and traffic and expensive towing.. I've been faced with all of those a few times and it's not fun even after the first time.. I will do the fill tank and carry around some fuel to understand the miles and gauge(none of my bikes have had a fuel gauge) Mainly working out the up hill splutter.




Edited by matte 2016-08-09 7:38 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-08-09 10:54 PM (#518732 - in reply to #518708)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
Ok, did another complete test on the gauge and sender(without pulling the sender out) Sender gave off an ohms reading and gauge was testing as sending a signal.. Grounded the gauge wire and still only went to just on the empty but should goto full. Pulled the gauge perspex screen off and moved the needle with no power on but wherever I moved it to, it would stay there unless I tapped it.. I finally worked out that the silver round dial the needle sits under was bent down slightly, enough to jam the needle!!!!!!!!!!! I read half a tank so I will have to fill it and see because I have no idea how much I've put in or used..

So the problem of spluttering up hill so either there is a different problem with the fuel or the sender is giving a wrong reading...

Does anyone know the correct ohms range for the fuel sender of a 1958 Plymouth Belv? I did a search on the forum but there are some conflicting answers. My gauge reads half and my ohms test on the sender is sitting at 67.9 ohms.






Edited by matte 2016-08-10 3:35 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-08-11 3:50 AM (#518821 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: RE: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
Anyone know???????



Edited by matte 2016-08-11 3:52 AM




(bueller-e1431195418441.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments bueller-e1431195418441.jpg (59KB - 175 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2016-08-11 5:22 AM (#518822 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
I don't have any values for 58, but I assume that the values is close to the ones in 1960;

Resistance of the tank sender at different levels;
- Empty 74 ohms
- 1/4 tank 41 ohms
- 1/2 tank 29 ohms
- 3/4 tank 18 ohms
- Full tank 11 ohms

I think that you need to remove the sender and open it carefully - there will be a lot of rust, sand and rubber residues.....

Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-08-11 5:56 AM (#518823 - in reply to #518822)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
wizard - 2016-08-11 5:22 AM

I don't have any values for 58, but I assume that the values is close to the ones in 1960;

Resistance of the tank sender at different levels;
- Empty 74 ohms
- 1/4 tank 41 ohms
- 1/2 tank 29 ohms
- 3/4 tank 18 ohms
- Full tank 11 ohms

I think that you need to remove the sender and open it carefully - there will be a lot of rust, sand and rubber residues.....



Thanks mate. I was reading the 57-58 were totally different from the 11-74 range. On other old threads I've seen comments that it goes up to 100 and another up to 200... Can the sender be removed without dropping the tank?? Tank has got to come of anyway but good to know if it can for future reference..

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2016-08-11 6:38 AM (#518829 - in reply to #516641)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
At least you must loosen the tank bands, backing the nuts far as possible without removing them, the it should be possible.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2016-08-11 2:25 PM (#518860 - in reply to #518823)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Expert

Posts: 3768
200010005001001002525
Location: NorCal

The fuel tank sender in my '57 wagon is the 0-220 type....common to Stewart-Warner.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matte
Posted 2016-08-11 7:25 PM (#518882 - in reply to #518860)
Subject: Re: Grounding The Gauges



Elite Veteran

Posts: 977
500100100100100252525
Location: Sydney, Australia
Great thanks all for the help.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

* * * This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated * * *


(Delete all cookies set by this site)