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Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-01 7:44 AM (#502935)
Subject: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Has anyone tied using ribbed or serpentine type belts on an early hemi motor? I recently have been doing a lot of trial and error with some different parts. Current setup will use Hot Hemi Heads timing cover, BBC water pump adapter, lower alternator adapter, and GM type power steering pump mount. I switched the lower alternator to mount to the passenger side, and moved the pump mount down on the timing cover from where it normally mounts (bolt holes still line up). Using a March Performance Mopar small block serpentine pulley, and some other serpentine pulleys for the alternator and steering pump from summit. The water pump is now an electric Chevy BB pump from summit also. Anyone else tried running a serpentine setup before with have to fabricate a bunch of stuff themselves?

I attached some pics of it so far. Still working on mock-up and alignment. Also included a before picture.



(IMG_0926.JPG)



(IMG_0930.JPG)



(IMG_1011.JPG)



(IMG_1009.JPG)



(IMG_1008.JPG)



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58coupe
Posted 2016-02-01 9:56 AM (#502947 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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The only conversion I have seen as a complete bolt-on was for popular engines like SBC or Ferd. If you can bet the alignment right I believe it will work. You will have to add a tensioner somewhere but you know that.

Edited by 58coupe 2016-02-01 9:58 AM
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-01 10:14 AM (#502948 - in reply to #502947)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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There is already some adjustability in the alternator mount, and I will modify the PS mount to be adjustable also. I don't think I need any additional tensioner otherwise, but someone please chime in if I'm wrong.
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wayfarer
Posted 2016-02-01 1:15 PM (#502961 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Late model tensioners are spring loaded.....
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-01 1:41 PM (#502962 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: RE: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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True. The ones one my '98 Nissan are not. They need adjustment every 10,000 miles or so. Don't see why this would be any different.
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2016-02-02 3:57 AM (#503009 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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You don't necessarily need a tensioner as such if the alt already has adjustabillity, but you do need an idler wheel to make sure the belt wraps the tiny alt pulley 180 degrees for grip purposes.
Also, with the alt mounted that low, it will see a lot of watersplash and dirt along the way, meaning beltgrip could be compromised even more. Not my favorite position to have an electrical device.
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-02 7:19 AM (#503017 - in reply to #503009)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Thanks for the feedback. I was wondering about the amount of belt wrapped around the pulley. I decided to use the dual belt crankshaft pulley so there will be two belts. One belt from the crank to the alternator, and another from the crank to the P/S pump pulley. You think the alternator needs a total 180 degrees of wrap or it will slip? I could add a tensioner in later if needed. See how it works out.

The location of the alternator and road splash/dirt has me a bit worried, but I don't plan on taking the car out in the rain much. Love AAA. Also, I discovered the HOT Heads upper alternator mount will NOT fit under the hood of a *my* Desoto with a 392. I tried it, and had to go with the lower mount for that reason. I also had to add spacers to move the alternator slightly forward as it was just barely touching the frame rail.

My original intent was to switch over to a Hot Heads front drive kit v-belt kit, but I ran into some fitment issues with having the 392 in my Firesweep. I tried a few different setups, but what you see in the pictures seems like what I will be sticking with, unless I run into another problem.

Pic below does not have 180 degrees wrap on alternator pulley, although it does have 8 ribs instead of six.

Edited by Timmo 2016-02-02 8:09 AM




(360-SERPENTINE-ALT-2.jpg)



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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2016-02-02 3:05 PM (#503035 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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The belt looks fairly wide which helps, but the pic doesn't show (the need for) an idler wheel because the alt shown is a low power 35 or 60 amp unit which don't cause as much power/drag as say, a modern 90 amp unit.
I don't quite understand why you'd want to run 2 belts. The purpose of a serp.belt is mainly to simplify installation. With 2 belts, you might as well just run the stock v-belts.

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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-02 5:41 PM (#503056 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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I had to completely redo my front drive setup, and I thought the flat ribbed belts looked a bit more slick than v-belts.

I realize the amount of resistance from the alternator, the pulley size, and belt tension all come into play here. The alternator pulley has about 150 degrees or so wrap angle which I hope is enough for the parts I am using. This is a bit of an experiment to see if how things will workout.

Edited by Timmo 2016-02-02 5:56 PM
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lozrox58
Posted 2016-02-08 4:24 AM (#503567 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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You need good wrap angle on all of the pulleys. I recall being told 75 degrees is the absolute minimum but 120+ is far better.
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-02-08 11:23 PM (#503645 - in reply to #503009)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Another thing to keep in mind regarding the tensioner: It is OK to use a v-belt that only goes around 1 or 2 low power devices without a tensioner, but when you go with a serpentine belt that wraps around a bunch of high-drag accessories, once that belt starts to loosen slightly, it will immediately start to slip and burn up. That is likely the main reason for tensioners on all the serpentine systems. You need them if you are going to put a lot of drag on a single belt because you can't afford to have it loosen up. But, if you are just running a couple of low drag parts off of one serpentine like in your picture, then you can safely use it without a tensioner.
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-09 7:12 AM (#503658 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Right. I'm running one belt from the alt to the crank, and one belt from the PS pump to the crank. One belt per accessory. My previous v-belt setup was a belt that went from the crank to the PS pump and water pump, and than a belt from the PS pump to the alt. Worked for a while when I was in high school, but finally I got tired of constantly adjusting it and having to run the belts super tight to keep from slipping.

Edited by Timmo 2016-02-09 7:13 AM
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Chrispy
Posted 2016-02-18 1:04 PM (#504535 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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What kind of fit issues did you have? i'm on the cusp of putting a 392 in a 57 firesweep 2dr myself.
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GregCon
Posted 2016-02-20 9:00 AM (#504693 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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I have experience with serpentine belt setups....

1) March Perf produces fancy looking junk. I don't have enough time to point out all the design flaws in their stuff.

2) The common 'rule of thumb' is you must have 1/4 belt wrap around a pulley....in my experience you must have more, especially on small diameter pulleys or heavily loaded accessories.

3) If you are using one belt for all accessories, you MUST have a 'constant tensioner' (i.e. spring loaded) in the system. I know a lot OEM setups use a 'fixed tension' tensioner but I'm unaware of any that use it on a single belt system. For example, Infiniti uses a fixed tensioner but uses two belts to split up the loads. In my experience, a spring loaded tensioner will compensate for the differences between cold and hot operation. Nothing less professional than a belt setup that squeaks and squeals until the car is warmed up. Or a car that squeals the belt when you floor the gas.

When I did my early Hemi I purposely avoided serpentine belts for a more vintage look, and to avoid the need for a tensioner. It works perfectly... I don't even think about the belt drive when I'm driving. The pic below is a mock-up; there are actually two belts on the AC/alternator.







Edited by GregCon 2016-02-20 9:10 AM




(belts.jpg)



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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-20 9:28 AM (#504695 - in reply to #504535)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Chrispy - 2016-02-18 1:04 PM

What kind of fit issues did you have? i'm on the cusp of putting a 392 in a 57 firesweep 2dr myself.


Biggest issue was trying to make the belt driven stuff on the 325 dodge motor to fit the 392 without the correct brackets. I was in highschool at the time, and it was my daily driver, so i had to make it "just work". The exhaust is a tight fit to get past the steering box and frame and starter motor, but doable. I used the motor mounts from Hot Heads, and did away with the stock style "can" motor mounts. the 392 is an extra 200 pounds or so over the front wheels, so I had to crank up the torsion bars to compensate. Stiffer bars are probably the correct way. If you upgrade to a dual reservoir master cylinder, the space between the master cylinder and driver side valve cover is REALLY close for my setup. You my also have some interferance issues with the oil pan on the 392 hitting the frame front cross member. a bit of fabrication work on the pan would have made things fit much better.

I did the swap in highschool and it was my first big undertaking on a car, but i managed to make it work for this long. It was really pretty straight forward.
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Handygun
Posted 2016-02-21 5:37 PM (#504794 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?


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I am going to pull my motor and notch the cross member.My torsion bars came from a 57 Fury which are the thickest oem ones made, I believe, and they could be stiffer. It's nice to read about the same grief I have had.

Edited by Handygun 2016-02-21 5:38 PM
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Chrispy
Posted 2016-02-22 11:35 AM (#504837 - in reply to #504695)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Timmo - 2016-02-20 7:28 AM

Chrispy - 2016-02-18 1:04 PM

What kind of fit issues did you have? i'm on the cusp of putting a 392 in a 57 firesweep 2dr myself.


Biggest issue was trying to make the belt driven stuff on the 325 dodge motor to fit the 392 without the correct brackets. I was in highschool at the time, and it was my daily driver, so i had to make it "just work". The exhaust is a tight fit to get past the steering box and frame and starter motor, but doable. I used the motor mounts from Hot Heads, and did away with the stock style "can" motor mounts. the 392 is an extra 200 pounds or so over the front wheels, so I had to crank up the torsion bars to compensate. Stiffer bars are probably the correct way. If you upgrade to a dual reservoir master cylinder, the space between the master cylinder and driver side valve cover is REALLY close for my setup. You my also have some interferance issues with the oil pan on the 392 hitting the frame front cross member. a bit of fabrication work on the pan would have made things fit much better.

I did the swap in highschool and it was my first big undertaking on a car, but i managed to make it work for this long. It was really pretty straight forward.


Interesting, i did a 392 in my 57 dodge in high school as well and it fit fairly well. I wonder if the pan issues stemmed from the motor mount change. Do you have power steering in the car? The coaxial one? Also which starter did you use? My plan was to use a mini starter from the late 90s small block trucks.

The hemi is heavier than the 325 by a bit, but I'm not sure it's 200lbs. My plan is to use the hot heads intake and the aluminum pump conversion to shed some weight, also the later aluminum trans should help some too.
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-22 12:22 PM (#504844 - in reply to #504837)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Chrispy - 2016-02-22 11:35 AM

Timmo - 2016-02-20 7:28 AM

Chrispy - 2016-02-18 1:04 PM

What kind of fit issues did you have? i'm on the cusp of putting a 392 in a 57 firesweep 2dr myself.


Biggest issue was trying to make the belt driven stuff on the 325 dodge motor to fit the 392 without the correct brackets. I was in highschool at the time, and it was my daily driver, so i had to make it "just work". The exhaust is a tight fit to get past the steering box and frame and starter motor, but doable. I used the motor mounts from Hot Heads, and did away with the stock style "can" motor mounts. the 392 is an extra 200 pounds or so over the front wheels, so I had to crank up the torsion bars to compensate. Stiffer bars are probably the correct way. If you upgrade to a dual reservoir master cylinder, the space between the master cylinder and driver side valve cover is REALLY close for my setup. You my also have some interferance issues with the oil pan on the 392 hitting the frame front cross member. a bit of fabrication work on the pan would have made things fit much better.

I did the swap in highschool and it was my first big undertaking on a car, but i managed to make it work for this long. It was really pretty straight forward.


Interesting, i did a 392 in my 57 dodge in high school as well and it fit fairly well. I wonder if the pan issues stemmed from the motor mount change. Do you have power steering in the car? The coaxial one? Also which starter did you use? My plan was to use a mini starter from the late 90s small block trucks.

The hemi is heavier than the 325 by a bit, but I'm not sure it's 200lbs. My plan is to use the hot heads intake and the aluminum pump conversion to shed some weight, also the later aluminum trans should help some too.


Yes. The car has the original power steering. I used the starter from the 325 for years. Eventually went to a mini starter from Hot Heads when the original finally died. The weight of the 392 is close to 200 lbs more from what I have read on the internet, but it didn't mention anything about the accessories being including or much detail. I just switched the stock 392 intake manifold for the Hot Heads aluminum one. Big difference in weight by comparison. At the least, it's much less strain on my back to take the manifold on and off while leaning over the front of the car.

Edited by Timmo 2016-02-22 12:24 PM
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-22 12:26 PM (#504845 - in reply to #504794)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Handygun - 2016-02-21 5:37 PM

I am going to pull my motor and notch the cross member.My torsion bars came from a 57 Fury which are the thickest oem ones made, I believe, and they could be stiffer. It's nice to read about the same grief I have had. ;)


Could the oil pan be modified rather than notching the cross member?
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-02-22 12:28 PM (#504846 - in reply to #504837)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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According to sources, the Dodge poly is 610 vs. 740 for the 392. So you add about 130 lbs if you believe the numbers. Hopefully they are all weighed with the same accessories on them so that they are comparable numbers.

The aluminum intake saves you 35lbs, a hefty amount. It's too bad that the single 4bbl manifold doesn't include the mount for the generator. It would have been nice to be able to use an original style generator mount with it. The aluminum pump saves you 12 lbs, changes all of the accessory brackets, requires an expensive timing cover, & eliminates the possibility of using a mechanical fuel pump. For those reasons, I don't like using the chevy pump and the small weight savings isn't worth the trouble in the end.
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Chrispy
Posted 2016-02-22 3:03 PM (#504865 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Only 12lbs eh? hmm well maybe ill stick with the stock cover and pump for now.

Timmo, did you notice any power increase from the intake vs the stock one?
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-22 3:23 PM (#504868 - in reply to #504865)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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I'm still working on the serpentine setup, and have not driven the car yet with the new intake manifold. sorry.
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GregCon
Posted 2016-02-24 1:54 PM (#505064 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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354 all iron



(Weight 354 LR.JPG)



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Chrispy
Posted 2016-02-24 2:33 PM (#505066 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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700 eh? thats not bad, i imagine the 392 is a few pounds more, but the aluminum intake would probably equalize that differential.
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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-24 4:22 PM (#505079 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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I was using this for a reference: http://www.cowtownmopars.com/original/HemiSpecs

Looks like a 325 dodge hemi is 156 lbs lighter than a 392 according to the info in the link. I assumed the poly heads weighed less than the hemi heads, but I don't know for sure what or if the difference is.

They list the dry weight of the 354 as 737 lbs.

Edited by Timmo 2016-02-24 4:25 PM
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GregCon
Posted 2016-02-24 10:57 PM (#505109 - in reply to #505079)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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That scale is certified for commerce and it weighs in 2 lbs increments. The fact that it says 700lbs even is just a coincidence.


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Timmo
Posted 2016-02-25 7:05 AM (#505130 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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I'm wondering where the other 37 pounds are coming from
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GregCon
Posted 2016-02-25 11:28 AM (#505150 - in reply to #505130)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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It could be the carb and distributor....but then their number probably didn't include an AC compressor or possibly exhaust manifolds.

Weights listed in books are always 'funny' in my experience. That's why I bought the scale...it ends a lot of speculation. Like what do you think an 8-3/4" rear weighs...?


Once, the idiots at Popular Hot Rodding were bragging in their rag how some tubular aftermarket k-frame "shaved 200lbs." off the front end of a Duster. I pondered that a while, then went out in the garage and dragged a complete K-frame with disc brakes, steering, etc. and weighed it. It was something like 217lbs.

I got on their website forum and showed them the pic of the stock k-frame and politely asked how could an aftermarket frame/brakes/steering only weigh 17lbs?

Their response was ...they deleted my thread within 30 minutes. I guess I don't advertise in their mag like the k-frame guy does.....
















(8 .75 weight.JPG)



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Powerflite
Posted 2016-02-25 12:06 PM (#505155 - in reply to #505130)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Exactly. I have seen so many different numbers quoted that it is ridiculous. I know that Greg's alternator is lighter than the original generator, but he also has an A/C compressor that I don't think should be included. I would bet that the A/C compressor & bracket is heavier than the difference in the alternator. So what else would be included...the starter? But even that is no more than 10 lbs or so. And since it isn't physically bolted to the motor, I doubt the weights of the 318, 440 etc include the starter either.
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wayfarer
Posted 2016-02-25 1:28 PM (#505170 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Cool scale...I thought that I might like to have one until I heard what the msrp is...$1300 for 2200lb cap.

A quick search turns up plenty of good options...hhmmmm...

Edited by wayfarer 2016-02-25 1:39 PM
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GregCon
Posted 2016-02-25 7:06 PM (#505191 - in reply to #505170)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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I bought mine on Ebay for $200. I had it calibrated by a local company...I don't recall how much but it was cheap enough that I forgot already.

It's a 4,000lbs scale. I once picked up a 66 Fury (no engine) that I was scrapping so I know it'll take it.
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Chrispy
Posted 2016-12-19 2:14 AM (#529127 - in reply to #504868)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Did you ever get this worked out? hows it running?
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Timmo
Posted 2016-12-19 7:33 AM (#529136 - in reply to #529127)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Yes. I did finish it and it works great, but I made some changes.

"Current setup will use Hot Hemi Heads timing cover, BBC water pump adapter, lower alternator adapter, and GM type power steering pump mount. I switched the lower alternator to mount to the passenger side, and moved the pump mount down on the timing cover from where it normally mounts (bolt holes still line up). Using a March Performance Mopar small block serpentine pulley, and some other serpentine pulleys for the alternator and steering pump from summit. The water pump is now an electric Chevy BB pump from summit also."

The elctric summit water pump wasn't pushing enough water to keep the motor cool in the hot summer months.  Temps would creep up to 190 or so.  I put in a summit universal aluminum radiator Part # SUM-380325 to try and compensate.  Still had temps creep up.  Switched out the eletric BBC pump for a regular short-neck BBC pump and used a March long-neck water pump pulley Summit part # MCH-6322.  Lined up almost perfect with the crank and alternator belt.  Bought a shim kit from summit to align the pump pulley perfect, and bought a longer belt from the local parts store.  Works terrific now.  Almost too well, as the motor barely gets up to temperature in the colder weather.

I had been using a old Ford Focus dual electric fan setup as it fits and moves a lot of air.  You can buy a high end spal electric slim line fan if you want something more pretty but you will spend more money.

I am very happy with the new setup.  Looks great. will try to get some pictures.

Edit: I also moved the battery to the trunk to make things look less cluttered and to help at the drag strip. The aluminum radiator was just slightly too wide to fit with the battery in the stock location. There is another summit radiator that is not as wide that would fit easily.

Edit 2: Also, with all the stuff I have done to the motor and car recently, I managed to run a 14.099 @ 95.5 mph. Previous best was 14.5 @ 94 mph. This is on 10-year-old 225-75-15 tires. Picked up some slicks for Christmas

Edited by Timmo 2016-12-19 7:41 AM

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mikes2nd
Posted 2016-12-19 9:46 AM (#529143 - in reply to #502935)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?


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im lightening my 392 up with a new fake modern alternator, modern starter, aluminum water pump, crossover intake and headers...

That is probably 60 lbs off?

Aluminum heads would be amazing but they are like 2k...
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Chrispy
Posted 2016-12-19 2:17 PM (#529183 - in reply to #529143)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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mikes2nd - 2016-12-19 7:46 AM

im lightening my 392 up with a new fake modern alternator, modern starter, aluminum water pump, crossover intake and headers...

That is probably 60 lbs off?

Aluminum heads would be amazing but they are like 2k...


The biggest available gain after the aluminum heads is in the intake, the hot heads intake is 30 something pounds lighter, however you don't have the generator mount anymore so you have to figure that part out.

The lightweight starter is around 10lbs lighter IIRC

Water pump is 12lbs

Alternator is a little lighter than the generator but im not sure how much.

Headers are likely just as heavy, but the flow is worth it.
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Chrispy
Posted 2016-12-19 2:32 PM (#529187 - in reply to #529136)
Subject: Re: Serpentine belts on a 392 or any other early Hemi?



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Timmo - 2016-12-19 5:33 AM

Yes. I did finish it and it works great, but I made some changes.

"Current setup will use Hot Hemi Heads timing cover, BBC water pump adapter, lower alternator adapter, and GM type power steering pump mount. I switched the lower alternator to mount to the passenger side, and moved the pump mount down on the timing cover from where it normally mounts (bolt holes still line up). Using a March Performance Mopar small block serpentine pulley, and some other serpentine pulleys for the alternator and steering pump from summit. The water pump is now an electric Chevy BB pump from summit also."

The elctric summit water pump wasn't pushing enough water to keep the motor cool in the hot summer months.  Temps would creep up to 190 or so.  I put in a summit universal aluminum radiator Part # SUM-380325 to try and compensate.  Still had temps creep up.  Switched out the eletric BBC pump for a regular short-neck BBC pump and used a March long-neck water pump pulley Summit part # MCH-6322.  Lined up almost perfect with the crank and alternator belt.  Bought a shim kit from summit to align the pump pulley perfect, and bought a longer belt from the local parts store.  Works terrific now.  Almost too well, as the motor barely gets up to temperature in the colder weather.

I had been using a old Ford Focus dual electric fan setup as it fits and moves a lot of air.  You can buy a high end spal electric slim line fan if you want something more pretty but you will spend more money.

I am very happy with the new setup.  Looks great. will try to get some pictures.

Edit: I also moved the battery to the trunk to make things look less cluttered and to help at the drag strip. The aluminum radiator was just slightly too wide to fit with the battery in the stock location. There is another summit radiator that is not as wide that would fit easily.

Edit 2: Also, with all the stuff I have done to the motor and car recently, I managed to run a 14.099 @ 95.5 mph. Previous best was 14.5 @ 94 mph. This is on 10-year-old 225-75-15 tires. Picked up some slicks for Christmas :cool:



Awesome! Please do post up pictures of the setup. I'd really like to see what you did, im not even close on my motor, but i'm trying to plan it out.
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