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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | Sonoramic60 - 2015-07-13 2:07 PM
Sid --
You're quite right. I just find it fascinating to discover how things happened that weren't supposed to. My academic work was in history and I still fancy myself as a dabbler in it so you would think I would realize after all these years that sometimes things ain't really what they are supposed to be.
PS, After seeing those ads, the light finally dawned on me that this old man remembers them from back in the day. Very good.
i'm sure you have seen the ads back in the day! heck, i can't even remember what i did last year... (which is probably a good thing)
meanwhile i found this posted by jimntempe(?) here some time ago.
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Location: Indiana |
cool...
but one question, what is "standard" transmission ("Only one of big V8's available with standard transmission") - manual or automatic? |
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Expert
Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | Standard transmission always relates to a manual regardless of the number of gears.
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto" |
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Location: Indiana |
that's what i always thought and how i've always referred to them...
but not sure i'd say "always" relates to manual - if i run to the local auto dealership, my hunch is that all the sales personnel will refer to automatics as "standard"... |
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Expert
Posts: 1740
 
Location: Alaska | Many of todays cars are considered "standard" with an automatic but that was not so through at least the 80s. Most american made cars could be ordered with a manual transmission which was usually a 3 -speed. |
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | FwdLk56:
Maybe the sales person would refer to the automatic as being standard equipment but NOT standard shift. Big difference.
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto" |
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | Here's a tid-bit of info I read in the '59 DeSoto full line brochure that may be a surprise - the Adventurer 383 two 4 barrel 350HP engine was an available factory installed option on any DeSoto model including the Firesweep! Can you imagine a stripped down Firesweep with this engine option blowing the doors off almost anything back then? That would be a blast - especially in a station wagon!
Being an old drag racer, and I had the oportunity to have one today, I'd do it in a heartbeat (but it would have to be a 2 door HT for me).
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto"
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Posts: 1287
| Viper --
I prefer the Dodge Royal Lancer D-500. It has the same 383 as Dodge made all the B-Series engines (check my dissertations on the the comparative HP ratings on ALL the B-Series mills) and was a shade lighter. Plus, I loved those '59 Royal Lancer spinner hubcaps (sorry, "Wheel Covers").
Still, in those days, the name "Adventurer" had a certain panache, though "Royal Lancer" wasn't bad. But my favorite is still "Fury."
Joe |
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | Yes Sonoramic60:
But in those days, who would have even an inkling of a thought that a DeSoto could be a "Hot Rod". Plymouths and Dodges, yes - but not DeSotos (except for the Adventurer which was identifiable as such).
My dream would be a '59 Firesweep 2HT with the Adventurer engine/TF reversed valve body performance trans stripped to the bare bones but 100% stock in appearance, a 3.91:1 Sure-Grip, headers with X exhaust through low restriction mufflers, some sort of "gummy" rear tires that looked somewhat "stock" (back in the early '60s Atlas made cheater slicks with wide whitewalls), re-jet the carbs to the max, a Purple Shaft cam, a performance electronic ignition, advance the curve as much as possible, electric cooling fans(s) with no engine radiator fan, deep oil pan with windage tray, electric fuel pump, and a high stall speed converter. I'd even duct the air intake to the carbs through the vent between the windshield and hood (no heater of course). Just for appearance to fake everyone out, I'd opt for WWW tires and full wheel covers - stock of course and most likely the color sweep moulding at least if not two toned. Color would be black! Gas mileage? 4 to 5 miles per gallon down hill with a tail wind at best.
Yeah, it's only a dream but..................
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto"
Edited by Viper Guy 2015-08-04 11:48 AM
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Location: Indiana | Viper Guy - 2015-08-04 10:50 AM
But in those days, who would have even an inkling of a thought that a DeSoto could be a "Hot Rod". Plymouths and Dodges, yes - but not DeSotos (except for the Adventurer which was identifiable as such).
agreed...
DeSoto's are known for being HEAVY...
a '56 2dr Firedome tipped the scale at over 4000 lbs, the Adventurer was even heavier, a '56 Fury was only 3650 lbs, the heavy '56 Stude Golden Hawk was 3360 lbs and the '56 Flight Hawk was only 2780 lbs...
the only one that i can think of (for '56) that was heavier than the DeSoto was the Packard Caribbean at 4960 lbs... |
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | FwdLk56:
According to the paperwork on my '59 Firesweep 4D sedan, the shipping weight is only 3570 lbs.
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto" |
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Posts: 1287
| Viper --
I dunno. In 1959, I think I might even have gone for a '59 Pontiac Catalina with Jim Wangers' "pre-Super Duty package. It was what we called the "Isky" package. Pontiac offered an optional camshaft. It was an Iskandarian package that featured a conversion to a solid lifter valve train, some special gears and a couple of little different suspension items. We didn't have any lightweight parts or anything" but they did have a 4-speed transmission. But when push came to shove, it would be a hard choice all around. In any event, in my case it's a moot point as back then I had neither the proverbial pot nor a handy window.
Joe |
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Location: Indiana | i can't find any DeSoto that LIGHT - i'm using http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/desoto/full-size_desoto_4gen... for reference...
'59 -
4dr Firedome = 4010 lbs
2dr Adventurer = 4180 lbs
4dr Firesweep = 3850 lbs
4dr Fireflite = 4120 lbs
2dr Firesweep = 3800 lbs
2dr Fireflite = 4090 lbs |
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | FwdLk56:
Using the info for the '59 Firesweep 4D sedan listed in your source the shipping weight is shown as 3670 lbs. which is only 100 lbs. above what my paperwork indicates. It's still a few hundred lbs. under the 4000 lb. mark that is associated with these old behemoths. The Firedome, Fireflite, and Adventurer are considerably heavier but they are larger too being built on the Chrysler chassis and not the Dodge chassis that the Firesweep is. Quite a difference in weight compared to the looks which are hardly discernible.
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto" |
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Location: Indiana |
i've always went by "curb weight", not by "shipping weight"...
just what is "shipping" weight anyway?
if i pull up the spec's on any 2015 car, i see "curb" weight in the list of spec's but no "shipping" weight...
not sure what the "official" difference really is but it sounds like a sales gimmick to me, "your car only weighs 2600 lbs to ship to you, but you will have to put the engine in yourself, shipped separately"... |
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Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | This database http://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1959/586805/desoto_adventurer...
Says a 59 Adventurer was...
Shipping weight: 1814 kg / 4000 lbs
Curb weight estimated: 1895 kg / 4180 lbs
It lists a 59 Dodge Coronet D-500 http://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1959/597890/dodge_coronet_v-8...
as
Shipping weight: 1701 kg / 3750 lbs
Curb weight estimated: 1780 kg / 3920 lbs
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | Hey guys:
Shipping weight is what the factory indicates the vehicle weighs when it leaves the factory ready to be shipped. There is no estimate. The curb weight can include gasoline in the tank, maybe some options that are not disclosed, or whatever. But you will note these curb weights are listed as estimates. Example, with a 20 gallon tank full of gas vs. 5 gallons that might be in the tank when the car is shipped, the difference about 100 lbs. That is why shipping weight is what is always used for documentation purposes - not curb weight wihich is an abstract number.
Hopefully this will help.
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto"
Edited by Viper Guy 2015-08-05 6:03 PM
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Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | 15 gallons of gas only weighs 100 pounds, not 450. |
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | jimntempe:
Ooops! You're right! Thanks for the correction and I made the correction in my post above. Second mistake I've made - can't remember the first.
Still, the point is that a full tank of gas is never part of shipping weight and 5 gallons may even be a stretch as for part of the shipping weight. I remember when dad had his dealership, sometimes there wasn't enough gas in the car to get it off the transporter.
Regardless, the shipping weight is what is always used for documentation purposes.
"It's delightful, it's delovely, it's DeSoto"
Edited by Viper Guy 2015-08-05 6:06 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | The '61 Polara Super D-500 is the king of forwardlook performance; which is good because it shows that Chrysler was steadily improving as time went on. But I wonder if you lived in 1961 and wanted to create a go-fast street car using only forwardlook cars and motors, which combination would give you the most bang for the buck. Obviously the most powerful motor in the lightest car, but not all motors will fit into the lightest car. Given that a hemi or cross ram motor would be a very tough fit for an A-body, I think that the best engine swap combo you could create back then would be to put a 380HP 300E 413 motor into a '60-'61 Valiant/Lancer 2dr sedan. That would have been the king of the road for it's time. Maybe I should build that car someday. And it looks like the next best would be a 392 hemi motor (or crossram 413 too) into a '55-'56 Plymouth or Dodge 2dr sedan. I will have built that car once I swap out the 331 in mine.  Even more satisfying is that this hemi/'56 Plymouth combo would have been the quickest Mopar drag race combo from '57 to '59 until the Valiant came out. I guess Mr. Swartley knew what he was doing back then - except that he used a heavier Fury hardtop. |
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Posts: 1287
| Powerflite --
In 1961, the Polara Super D-500 was really kind of a dog. That same engine was available in any of the smaller, and lighter(!), Dart and Plymouth models, so obviously these were the cars that ran for the important marbles in NHRA, AHRA, NASCAR, and USAC events. As a matter of fact, the Ramchargers' '61 Dart Pioneer 2-dr H/T was officially the fastest strip MoPar in 1961 as it had the lowest E.T., 12.55 seconds (113.35 MPH), and won the SS/SA competition at the 1961 NHRA Nationals with that "dealer-installed-parts" equipped 413. 1961 also saw the Pettys running 413s in their '61 Plymouths and Cotton Owens using Darts on NASCAR tracks. These Darts and Plymouths were supposed to be "stock"-legal cars available to any buyer with the moola. Incidently, the Ramchargers at first wanted to go with a 413 Plymouth, but that division of Chrysler told them that it wasn't in Plymouth's image to be associated with the greasy T-shirt guys; however, somehow or other, a '61 Dart turned up for them. In 1960, Al Eckstrand's '60 Fury was the SS/SA champ (14.51 E.T., 97.82, but in 1961 NHRA competion, Ray Christian's '60 Savoy did better with a 14.24 E.T. and 98.9 MPH, but by then that '60 Plymouth's 330 HP/383 was in A/SA.
As for street-legal, but not quite stock (but MoPar equipped) cars back then, Pete McNichols (another Ramcharger) had a hopped-up 354 Hemi in a '57 Savoy that was pretty nasty on Detroit's Woodward Avenue in those days. Initially, he had a 3-speed manual in it, but that big 354 kept shredding it, so he ended up with a TorqueFlite. I once did see '56 Plymouth at a show with a 440, but that was not in the days of the Forward Look.
Different events brought about various solutions. The Flying Mile at Daytona was dominated by Letter Cars, especially the 300F Special, whose record on the sands still stands (144.927 MPH). Andy Granatelli used an F with twin superchargers on the 413 to run on Bonneville, while Norm Thatcher used a '60 Dart with various sized B engines for the same purpose. Even the lowly Valiant so dominated the NASCAR compact class at Daytona in 1960 (six were entered and they took the first six places at 130+) that Ol' Anti-MoPar Bill France did away with that race. And, of course, the California Highway Patrol did use '61 Polaras, but Gunther Toody and Frances Muldoon had a Plymouth.
That's why there are races, be they a 100-meter dash, horse race, drag race, Indianapolis 500, or "Stop Light Grand Prix" -- I (or my horse, car, etc.) am (is) faster than you (yours). In my case, I like the Fury, if for nothing else, the name alone.
Joe Godec
'57 Chrysler 300C, '60 Fury Sonoramic, '65 Sport Fury 426-S/4-speed, '65 Fuelie Vette |
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Forward Look Performance
