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1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-04-22 6:20 PM (#476373)
Subject: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		Hi,
The '58 Imperial of Frederic has some problem with rear brakes which locked in forward motion and unlocked if you go in rear (but seems still a little applied)
The return springs are hooked in the loop of the shoes. According to '58 shop manual.
But on some manauls http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/096/Page05.htm the spring is hooked in the hole of the shoe web
Page 10 http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/096/Page10.htm the manaul says that" the spring pulls it straight back" which seems correct.

But why in 57/ 58 they put the spring end in the loop of the shoe. All of the brakes are the same, except shoes which have now these loops. http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/125/Page20.htm This installation seems anti mechanic because the spring pulls in an angle so the web could lock in the support (and the shoe not parallel to drum) ?

I'll try to put the spring in the hole of the web. I've found soemone who can machine new springs.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-05 11:30 AM (#477400 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: RE: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		No reply ?
No problem .....
I just receive today a bunch of new springs, made with "my" specifications: same lenght but longer and smaller ends to accomodate the istallation in the hole of the web shoes rather than in the loop. I'll yell you if ther's an improvement. The spring can also be install in the loop.





(new_rear_spring [fili1280].jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2015-05-05 12:44 PM (#477405 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		Hi Phil - for me, the return springs must be mounted in the hole of the shoe, not in the loop. If the spring is mounted in the loop, there will be an outpulling force instead of only straight bacwards
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-05 1:01 PM (#477411 - in reply to #477405)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France

It's also my opinion !!!
In the beginning of the Center Plane brake, the spring was hooked in the hole of the web , first pic, from http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/096/index.htm (Nox. 55) No loop on shoe.

Then, from 57 to 59, all manuals (2nd pic) show the spring end hooked to a loop. This means that the new shoes must have this loop. The system is the same at front brake except they always put the end of spring in the web hole ...



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-05 1:04 PM




(57rear_brake1 [1280x768].jpg)



(58rear_brake1.jpg)



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ToMopar
Posted 2015-05-07 3:15 AM (#477545 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: D-70199 Heslach		Here is a picture of my 57 Fireflite rear brake.
In case the spring is in the hole, the pad is loose.
If I used the loop, the pad is fixed.

First picture show the brake as I opened the first time. Second picture shows the condition, I think thats correct.


Edited by ToMopar 2015-05-07 3:29 AM




(8174.jpg)



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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-07 3:41 AM (#477546 - in reply to #477545)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		I agree, we have the same results with the springs which are on the car: if we put them in the hole some are loose, because also they are old (original springs) and elongated. For the "template" i've choosen a spring i have (NOS ?) which was 2 or 3 mm shorter, ( neer used ?).
I haven't installed the news at this time but i'll return when it'll be done.
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ronbo97
Posted 2015-05-07 8:31 AM (#477557 - in reply to #477546)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?


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1957 Chrysler shop manual says that the rears use the loop, while the fronts use the hole.

Ron

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wizard
Posted 2015-05-07 1:57 PM (#477588 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		It seems like if the spring is mounted in the "loop" there are 5 coils in the spring, while if the spring is mounted in the shoe "hole" there are 4 coils - check the black ' white pictures above....
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-07 2:24 PM (#477591 - in reply to #477588)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		The picture is not about Imperial or Chrysler but "common" to all mopar. It came from a '58 Master Technician booklet : http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/125/Page20.htm
Some pages before ther's this one. As you see the spring end is in the hole ............................

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-07 2:27 PM




(rearbrake [1024x768].jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2015-05-07 2:58 PM (#477593 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		OK, so that pic is showing the front brakes of a Plym or Dodge then, 3 coils (short) mounted in the hole.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-07 3:13 PM (#477596 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		Yes, you're right, it's front, sorry for a too fast message .... But it's very strange that on the same shoes you mount spring in loop or in hole ....
As you can see my springs have 5 coils (or 4 1/2). So the pic of '58 rear springs (6 coils, which are rather 5 1/2) must be Dodge or Plymouth . The 6 coils springs are smaller in diameter. With 6 coils you can't install them in the hole because external coil will contact the shoe web.



(P1180117 [1024x768].JPG)



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wizard
Posted 2015-05-07 3:58 PM (#477600 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		The 5 coil springs that I have is actually 4 full coils and 2 halfs, making 5 viewing from one side. These springs cannot be mounted in the brake shoe hole, they will interfer with the shoe itself - clearly, they must be mounted in the loop - just like Tom did in his picture above.

Very good thread and discussion guys - hopefully we sorted out the spring issue!!!
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-07 4:29 PM (#477601 - in reply to #477600)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		As you can the ones i order are also 4 coils + 2 halves but asymetric so i'll be able to install them in the hole !
What i can't understand is why they re-worked the shoes with this loop !!!! You can clearly see that in '56 the shoe haven't the loop. 1956 shoes (12") are listes a 1674 001. Curiously Imperial have different shoes in 57-58 : 1738 917 (front shoe, used only on Imperial IM and LY at front and rear brakes) & 1850 969 (rear, also used on front & rear Chrysler and Desoto)

A spring that pull with an angle can't return well a shoe (web) which "slide" between two plates, because the shoe web isn't parallel to the spring strenght "line" !

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-07 4:31 PM




(shoes.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2015-05-08 1:34 AM (#477663 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		Indeed, it's strange and yes, you're right Phil - the spring mounted inclined in the loop will loose some returning force, but gain some inward force. This will keep the shoe tight against the dust shield instead of tendency to tilt outwards. The flat retainer with the hairpin clip that holds the shoe to the dust shield leave very much more to whish for and it was changed in 59.

As I have been working a lot on Dieters '56 NY, I can tell you that the brakes demands a lot as for adjusting and the correct return springs in the first FL generation....
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2015-05-08 2:38 PM (#477707 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: RE: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: ZH, Switzerland

Thanks Sven - yes I also had to order new return springs, because the front RH brake was locking after a stay for few days. I bought the springs according to a fellow of our forum at Northwestern Auto Parts.

The order was:

4 brake return springs 1409 970 (used from '56 to '58 /w 12" drum brakes), 4 windings
4 brake return springs 1672 001 (used from '56 to '58 /w 12" drum brakes), 5 windings

The parts manual addresses the 5 winding spring for the 1956 Chrysler as well. But it has 4 winding return springs on all four corners and different clips and flat springs. The remaining springs not useable for the 1956 are at Sven's.

Since the new return springs are mounted at the front axle Sven or I never noticed the locking of the drum like addressed anymore.

 

Happy Motoring!

 

Dieter

BTW: return springs for all for corners for my Letter (1960) I got at Kanter's for USD 10.- for each return spring.

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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-08 6:29 PM (#477746 - in reply to #477707)
Subject: RE: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France

Some references about springs.
Note that for the new 3 platform brakes, http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/138/index.htm at page 8 says that the spring are assembled at an angle.



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-08 6:31 PM




(55-58spring.jpg)



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ToMopar
Posted 2015-05-11 6:01 AM (#477973 - in reply to #477746)
Subject: RE: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: D-70199 Heslach		I like to expand the hole/loop thread to the front brakes,
because mopar wrote in http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/112/index.htm Page 21

You're more apt to hear the rear shoes because the rear axle housing acts as a sounding board


I do not understand anyway why they decide in 57/58 to use different positions for the spring.
OK, I understand the sounding board reason, but I found out with the spring in hole the pad is not really "fixed" (compare to the rear), the brake pad may wobble and could jammed in the brake drum.
And in fact, thats not good....



(112 1957 - Sleeve - Type Power Steering Pump & Total- Contact Brakes - Page21 m.jpg)



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hemidenis
Posted 2015-05-15 10:48 PM (#478423 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Northen Virginia		great Thread, My 61 New Yorker is locking one wheel for a few miles, springs seems to be the reason but a bit complicated to find new ones...
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-16 3:20 AM (#478442 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		We're making test on rear and now with the "new" springs hanged in the hole there is no more locking in forward motion. But when the car goes in R the wheels stay braked, after braking which disapeared if we go in forward. It seems that the whole shoes swvel but don't return.
The idea is now to install a spring between the shoes at the botom, as you can see on all rear drum cars...

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-16 7:02 AM
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2015-05-16 11:57 PM (#478532 - in reply to #478442)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?


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Location: Ontario, Canada		Is this for 11" brakes or 12" brakes or both? Probably both but just wondering!

To be honest, I don't remember what I did! I think I went for the loops but what I do know is that I have never had brakes hang up that couldn't be released in a few back and forward runs in the driveway. Driving these cars for 25 or more years. Whenever I started a car that had sat for sometime the first thing I did was TOUCH the brakes. Right then I knew what to do. On the other hand, we had a local old Mopar Dealership mechanic who, sort of moonlighted, doing work for private customers in his own shop after hours!! I always bought new OEM return springs from him for every car I restored. He had boxes of them. It's been awhile, I'll see if he is still on deck!

Greg
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-17 5:19 PM (#478596 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		It's for 12" brakes.
Yes the brakes become free when we goes in forward but it's not normal that they "auto brake" in R !!!!! Cylinders are new and shoes also.
Maybe also the car needs to be driven some miles with several braking actions.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-19 5:36 PM (#478837 - in reply to #478596)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		Some news about these rear brakes
- spring in the bottom of the shoes and between them: doesn't work.
- but with new shoes on the right wheel this brake didn't lock now and it's the other side which locks now in R !!! A close inspection of the shoes shows that ther's something wrong with the web extension which contacts the eccentric cam: the shoe cam extension is tilted ... I had the same curious condition on one of my shoe some years ago. Ther's no crack, only angled. See pics.

With this shape the cam doesn't apply where it must and this could explain why the shoe locks. But how and why this happened ?

Tomorrow we put the new shoes on the left wheel and tests the car. But we're sure that the right wheel is now free in R.



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-19 5:44 PM




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hemidenis
Posted 2015-05-19 5:47 PM (#478838 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Northen Virginia		Just a suggestion Phil, how about a long spring joining both shoes like a bridge? to help the old original spring.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-19 6:00 PM (#478839 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		Hi Denis, it's just what we tried (as on this pic which isn't a mopar brake ...) and this put the whole shoes in wrong position after braking (in fwd or R). This was before we put new shoes at right. Seems that the shoes must be free at bottom.

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-19 6:14 PM




(rearspring.jpg)



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57desoto
Posted 2015-05-20 7:29 AM (#478903 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: New Castle PA		Phil, you might really be onto something, and if so, it will solve a LOT of issues. People have had this issue and asked me about it for years on 1957 DeSotos, but I've never compared the 2 shoes on top of one another as you have. I'm guessing at the very least, the 2 shoes on the same wheel should have the same angle.
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FIN_NV
Posted 2015-05-20 11:10 AM (#478923 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Northern New Jersey		I'm Looking For Brake return Springs for the front of My 60 Desoto. The Ones AMS Obsolete sent me are not correct. The fronts seem to have a longer looped end on one side.
The ones from Kanter are also not correct.
Any help appreciated.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-20 11:27 AM (#478926 - in reply to #476373)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France		There was the same "tilted" extension on the left shoes and with new shoes the locking problem disapears !!!! The test was made in a garage with wheels off the ground, then in normal rolling conditions. I will do a road test today (but weather is bad ..). Note that we put the spring in the hole and not in the loop. When eccentric is at minimum the spring is a little loose (but can't goes out) and just a little adjustement put the spring in tension. To be perfect the spring must be 2 mm shorter.
I'll put new pics this evening.

About front shoes i haven't order a new set of them. Maybe i'll do ?
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2015-05-20 1:50 PM (#478938 - in reply to #478926)
Subject: Re: 1957-58 rear brake spring: loop or hole ?



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Location: Pau, S-W France

weather was netter so i test he car ('58 Imperial)
- braking is perfect in forward and reverse
- transmission needs some checks but itsn't the subject.

I just add some pics of MY '57 shoe (only one rear shoe had this problem in 2010 and i can't remember what was the result, locking or grabbing or heating). But it seems that the web extension can't hold the pressure of the braking ... ) . Note that you could see the shape of the cam in it.

On the '58 shoes, all were "tilted" not even but all tilted...  I test the car on 10 km and braking is as it should be. So you must check this angle on your car if you've some locking situations. I wonder if we can stiffen the "leg" with "something".

On the '58 we did 3 things:

- new springs (available if someone neds a set)

- end spring in the hole rather in the loop (no noise ...)

- new shoes

 



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2015-05-20 1:57 PM




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