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Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-08 11:45 AM (#463976)
Subject: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hello everyone,



Does anyone happen to have the Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto car models ?

 

Thanks Rick

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soiouz
Posted 2014-12-08 1:20 PM (#463989 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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electricalengineer - 2014-12-08 11:45 AM

Hello everyone,



Does anyone happen to have the Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto car models ?

 

Thanks Rick



I have it... but for Canadian DeSotos! The difference is that we didn't have the small body Firesweep models here. Our Fireflites were actually imports from the US so much of the info in my canadian Ross Roy data book would be the same. If you need to know anything, let me know, and I'll get some scans uploaded.
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-08 1:53 PM (#463990 - in reply to #463989)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi David,

"Thanks" for your reply. I also sent a PM (Private Mail) to you.

Rick

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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-08 6:05 PM (#464003 - in reply to #463990)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hello Everyone,



Unfortunately, David's Canadian 1958 Ross Roy book version, did not have any DeSoto Adventurer car models in it.

Finally, I am wondering if anyone else has the Ross Roy Data Book for the 1958 DeSoto car models, for I am looking specifically for the "Adventurer" and the Electronic Fuel Injection option information, that was also available for this specific model.

Thansk Rick

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ttotired
Posted 2014-12-08 7:37 PM (#464009 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Not sure if you have done this yet, but there is a lot of info spread about here on the injection stuff

You can search "injection" and use search all posts without a date limit and lots of stuff comes up (most will be irrelevent), but you might find some more info on it?

Good luck

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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-08 8:24 PM (#464013 - in reply to #464009)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
The Ross Roy book does not cover Adventurers OR the fuel injection option. We need to see
these cars through a contemporary lens .... Adventurers were very special cars, as were Furys
and 300's. They were not standard models like the rest of the fleets, but were limited production,
high performance cars that took a top line model, restricted paint colors and interior choices, and
dumped all the chassis and go fast stuff they made into them. Apparently Ross Roy was more
focused on the standard models and didn't get into that limited production business. Or is could
be that his books were published early and not updated when the Adventurer came out ?

Whatever the reason, the closest you're going to get to a 58 Adventurer in the Ross Roy book
would be the same body type Fireflite.

The best info on the F/I is gleened from the parts books and what limited intel is shared amongst
the nutters in the hobby.
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-08 9:34 PM (#464018 - in reply to #464013)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi Doctor DeSoto,

"Thanks" for your rely. But, according to my research, the Benson Ford Research Center - Henry Ford Museum has a copy of the Ross Roy Data Book for the 1958 DeSoto models. And when I had called them, they had stated that on pages E5, E10, E11, and E12 of this book, is information on the DeSoto Adventurer and also the optional EFI system.

Again, I do not have this book, but I know that you do. And if you would check out these specific pages, I would appreciate it.

I do have the 1958 Ross Roy EFI data info for the Chrsyler 300D w/392 cid Hemi Firepower V-8 engine, Plymouth w/Golden Commando 350 cid wedge-head V-8 engines, and also for the Dodge w/D500 361 cid wedge-head V-8 engines. All of these EFI info. sheets came from the Ross Roy data book for 1958 Chrysler cars, Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 Plymouth cars, and Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 Dodge cars.

 

Thanks for your help-Rick



Edited by electricalengineer 2014-12-08 9:44 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-09 12:25 AM (#464037 - in reply to #464018)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
Page E5 specs out the engines and lists Adventurer thusly:

345 @ 5000 rpm
400lb.-ft.
361 cu. in.
4.12" x 3.38"
10.25 to 1
two 4-barrel

Pages E10 and E11 are a combined diagram and point-by-point desciption of a basic "Turboflash" (wedge) engine.
Nothing Adventurer specific.

Fuel injection is mentioned on E12, saying it can be ordered in place of the 2x4 carburated system on Adventurer,
and pitches it for fast warm up times, better acceleration, and fuel economy on short runs, but it details nothing about
the system itself or includes any photos/diagrams, etc.

Is this what you are looking for, or do you want deeper specifics ? I never considered these mentions to be worth
anything.
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d500neil
Posted 2014-12-09 12:35 AM (#464040 - in reply to #464037)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
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The Henry Ford Museum has a Research Department, and they can research almost anything for you (that they have docs on) for a small fee.

The Detroit Public Library has a similar service; have taken advantage of their services in the past, including buying copies of multiple issues of vintage
magazines (including Consumer Reports, E.G.) from them.

The American Manufacturers Specification (A.M.A.) sheets are also available at both these sources.



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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-09 7:13 PM (#464137 - in reply to #464037)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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"Thanks You" Doctor DeSoto, for checking out the (4) pages from your 1958 DeSoto Ross Roy Data Book.

Is there anyway that you could take a camera photo of page E12, which has "limited" information the the 1958 Adventurer's optional EFI system and upload it onto this site ?  If not, could you make a photocopy of this page and mail it to me, which I will give you my mailing address if you send a PM(private mail) to me ?

Finally, do you have any other 1958 Adventurer brochures, DeSoto Service Bulletins, or Dealership sales materials, that shows the otional EFI system that was available for this particular car ?

 

Thanks for your help-Rick

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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-10 1:28 AM (#464175 - in reply to #464137)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
I can take a pic and post here and email to you as well. I had my Adventurer before Al Gore invented
the internet, so finding anything was 1000x harder to do then than it is today. As a result, I don't think
I ever came into anything specific for Adventurer AND the Electrojector system, and what I did learn or
see was things shared to me by others fortunate enough to have found something. All this is 20+ years
behind me and my memory is fuzzy on what I had vs. seen and anything I do have is scattered widely in
boxes in my shop ... one of those "some day" things to go through and organize when the shop is more
finished and there is nothing "better" to do ! I have been searching for some body tag sets for some members
here now for over a year, finding a couple here, a couple there, as I go through stuff for other reasons.

Have you contacted Tom White ? He was a treasure trove of info on the subject and built the only functional
F/I car I know of (Adventurer).
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-10 8:45 AM (#464188 - in reply to #464175)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi Doctor DeSoto,

"Thanks" for your reply. If you would be kind enough and take a picture photo of page E12 (1958 DeSoto Ross Roy Data Book) and upload it onto this site, so everyone can have the pleasure and see this piece of historic information for the 1958 Adventurer. Also, if you prefer, you could e-mail me this photo and I will also upload it onto this site, so everyone can view and enjoy it..

And thru my research, I have noticed that DeSoto Division had produced "very little" information for the 1958 High-Performance "Adventurer" car model and its optional EFI system.

Finally, I did contact and had the pleasure of personally interviewing Tom White about his 1958 Adventurer EFI car model. He is a very nice gentleman, but he is also a very busy man who has limited time, for he is involved in restoring rare vintage antique cars and taking them to major car shows.

Thanks again for you help. And if anyone else has any other 1958 DeSoto Aventurer information on its optional EFI system, please PM(private mail) me or upload it onto this site, so everyone can enjoy this rare historic information.

Rick

 

 

 

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57burb
Posted 2014-12-10 11:06 AM (#464196 - in reply to #464188)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Hi Rick,

Most of the information you will find on the Bendix Electrojector will be found here on the Forward Look website.

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=48899&...

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=42214&...

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19270&...

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=22677&...

And there are a few resources outside of the forum:

http://soyeur.pagesperso-orange.fr/Mopar/SAE%20paper%20on%20Electro...

http://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/electrojector.html

Well, all the other links I used to have are not working. I hope those links at least give you a little more information than you already have.

Please let us know what your project is!

Edited by 57burb 2014-12-10 11:09 AM
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300XMAN
Posted 2014-12-10 12:18 PM (#464198 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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There is an interesting timeline when going through the engine division product planning documents from 1957. The Engine Division had a Russell Street (main) office. Here is the abridged timeline: Preliminary product planning called for the "M" Series Chrysler 300E to have optional fuel injection in inter-company correspondence dated January 10, 1957. In a document dated February 22, 1957, preliminary specifications were listed for P-D-S "L" Series sport car engines. The fuel injection V8 was supposed to consist of a 360 CI V8, with a bore and stroke of 4.12"x3.38". "The camshaft used on the fuel injection is the modified DeSoto camshaft", according to one footnote. By March 1, 1957, preliminary specifications on "M" Series sport car engines included optional fuel injection for the Fury, D500 and 300E V8s. In a May 9, 1957 cover letter with attached copies of acceptance letters by Dodge (dated April 25th) and DeSoto (dated April 19th), there is a reference to an original letter dated April 15th concerning the recommendations made on the assembly and testing of fuel injected "B" engines for "L" Series sport cars. The April 15th letter was apparently signed by B. W. Bogan and J. C. Guenther, but was not attached to the other letters. Lastly, the engine banking plans for the "L" Series passenger cars included rather optimistic production totals for fuel injection-equipped engines, which never materialized.
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-10 12:37 PM (#464203 - in reply to #464196)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi 57burb,

Thanks for your reply and (6) reference links. I have in the past visted all of these links that you have provided, and I do agree with you that "The Forward Look" site has on most EFI information on it.

However, I am looking for any factory documentation that is specifically for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer car model with its optional EFI system. And thru my research, I have not been able to find any Chrysler Corporation or DeSoto Division documentation, with information on the 1958 Adventurer and its optional EFI system. The only thing that I have found by accident, is some very "limited" information on page E12 of the Ross Roy Data Book for the 1958 DeSoto car models.

Finally, I am looking to see if anyone has any factory documentation on the 1958 Adventurer with the optional EFI sysem, that is from the Chrysler Corporation or DeSoto Division press releases, service bulletins or manuals, dealership sales materials or brochures, dealership extra equipment ordering forms, and the DeSoto Report (monthly magazine used for its dealership salesman).

 

Thanks for your help-Rick

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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-10 12:38 PM (#464204 - in reply to #464198)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
And at $500+, I can see why those orders never materialized. That is 20% of the cost of a new
Firesweep ... just for a go-fast engine option.

A new 57 Bel Air ragtop went out the door for $2500 ! My parents' new 2500q. ft. house cost
$11,000 in 1958 ! My Fireflite books out at something like $5400 as equipped. An Adventurer was
more ! It wasn't your average Joe that was buying a fuel injected Adventurer !!!! It would be interesting
to read what they "projected" those sales to be.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-10 12:48 PM (#464208 - in reply to #464204)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Parts Unknown
Rick,

Never say "never", but at one time I was really hot for this F/I information and ephemera. As far as I ever
could determine, the latter was simply never produced for DeSoto. Very few people knew/know much about
the system in the forst place, and most Forward Look interest has always been focused on the 300's, and thusly
most people who have any clue at all are the 300 guys. I talked with a lot of them and no one knew of any
DeSoto-specific paper for the Electrojector. I worked the lit guys for it too. Guys like Exline hounddogged a
lot of old dealerships. I did my share as well. Nothing ever surfaced.

Today, more is commonly known about these cars than ever before. Lots of guys have come forward saying
they saved a system, where back in the day we didn't have a clue what it even looked like !

What are you compiling this info for ?
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-10 1:19 PM (#464215 - in reply to #464208)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi Doctor DeSoto,

You had mentioned Lee Exline having a lot of old dealership information. Were you ever able to obtain any 1958 DeSoto Adventurer EFI information or literature from him ??

Thanks Rick
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-10 2:28 PM (#464223 - in reply to #464198)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi 300XMAN - Karl,



"Thanks" for your reply and the info. on the Chrysler Corporation Product Development letters and correspondences.

Is there any way you could scan the "Dodge" April 25th 1957  and "DeSoto" April 19th 1957  letters of acceptance and e-mail them to me ??

Thanks for your help-Rick



Edited by electricalengineer 2014-12-10 4:27 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-10 3:00 PM (#464230 - in reply to #464215)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
electricalengineer - 2014-12-11 10:19 AM

Hi Doctor DeSoto,

You had mentioned Lee Exline having a lot of old dealership information. Were you ever able to obtain any 1958 DeSoto Adventurer EFI information or literature from him ??

Thanks Rick


============================================================

As far as I remember, none ever surfaced.

This was largely a bleak and dead-end search. Little was known, few even cared, and documentation
was superficial, if it could be found at all, .... which very little was.

So, what are you trying to do with this intel search ?
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-10 4:51 PM (#464244 - in reply to #464040)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi D500neil,

I noticed that you had relied back with the Detroit Public Library and also the Henry Ford Museum Research Dept., as sources for information. I also have used both of these sources in the past, when I was looking for some other research information.

Thanks again for your reply and help-Rick

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ttotired
Posted 2014-12-10 5:08 PM (#464246 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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But no clues as to whats happening

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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-10 9:37 PM (#464278 - in reply to #464246)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
OK, here is the bit about Adventurers and the F/I option. Also a piece of super rare salesman's
lit showing base list pricing for all models. Options and accessory groups are printed on the back,
however the F/I is not shown.

So, let me ask for a third time, ... what are you going to do with this information ?






(DSC03521.jpg)



(DSC03523.jpg)



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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-11 8:39 AM (#464325 - in reply to #464013)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Posts: 60
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Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-08 8:24 PM

The Ross Roy book does not cover Adventurers OR the fuel injection option. We need to see
these cars through a contemporary lens .... Adventurers were very special cars, as were Furys
and 300's. They were not standard models like the rest of the fleets, but were limited production,
high performance cars that took a top line model, restricted paint colors and interior choices, and
dumped all the chassis and go fast stuff they made into them. Apparently Ross Roy was more
focused on the standard models and didn't get into that limited production business. Or is could
be that his books were published early and not updated when the Adventurer came out ?

Whatever the reason, the closest you're going to get to a 58 Adventurer in the Ross Roy book
would be the same body type Fireflite.

The best info on the F/I is gleened from the parts books and what limited intel is shared amongst
the nutters in the hobby.

 

Hi Doctor DeSoto,

 

"Thank You" very much for uploading your photo of page E12 from the 1958 DeSoto Ross Roy Data Book. And the main reason why I had started this thread, is the fact that I just recently found out that this particular Ross Roy data book did indeed contain information on the Adventurer (engine specs on page E5) and also optional EFI info (page E12). I was looking for a long time for this particular book and could never find one, except for one that I just recent found that is supposedly at the Henry Ford Museum - Benson Research.

For a long time, I also thought that this 1958 DeSoto Ross Roy Data book did not contain any EFI info., due to your thread replies that you had made not only on this thread, but on other thread replies as well. And that is why I asked you to uploaded the page E12, for I have never seen it and also thought that everyone would enjoy this "new" found EFI information.

I have akso uploaded another data sheet that is from the 1958 Plymouth Ross Roy Book, and that I had recently found. It shows an actual  drawing of the 1958 Plymouth's Golden Commando wedge-head 350 cid V-8 engine with the EFI option. And this page also contains some additional info. on the optional EFI system that was available. I have added this page, for it is "new" information that I found and it will also add to the other threads of EFI information that currently exists. I hope that everyone also enjoys this new information that I have added as well.

Finally, I have a passion for collecting data information on "rare" options that Chrysler Corporation had offered and also preserving its history. And after awhile when I have accumulated enough information, I will often write about it and share this information with others, so they can also enjoy it as well. I also hope that everyone has enjoyed the new information that was added on the subject of EFI systems and will continue to add other information in the future as well and preserve its history.

 

Thanks for all the replies-Rick



Edited by electricalengineer 2014-12-11 8:54 AM




(Plymouth GoldenCommando350RossRoy-1958-page-006.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-11 8:53 PM (#464402 - in reply to #464325)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
The comment above about Ross Roy not covering Adventurers or EFI was perhaps a bit off the cuff.

What you show there in the Plymouth book is what I consider "worthwhile" or "substantial" intel on
the subject. The 58 DeSoto book details out everything from gravel guards to interior fabrics on the
three basic models, but shows nothing on Adventurer beyond a quick mention that it exists. Their EFI
reference is also little more than passing mention.

If you are like me, you want DETAILS ! You want photos and schematics ! You want it all explained
so you could possibly build one !

These brief mentions are nothing but frustrating to me.

FWIW - my Fireflite shows a corporate in-house delivery code. It was an exec car, show car, test car,
etc. for the company before ultimately being sold to the public. In the trunk was a small box of gubbins
that included the gold "star" part of the F/I emblem. No historical connection has been made as to how
this car came to have half of an F/I emblem in the trunk, but I am very curious to know what this car was
used for in its early days. So far, no one can decode "09841" beyond in-house use.

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jimntempe
Posted 2014-12-11 9:40 PM (#464408 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=48899&...
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-12 9:25 AM (#464437 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi Doctor DeSoto,



"Thanks" for your last comments on the minimal amount of data information that was printed for the Adventurer car model and its EFI option in the 1958 DeSoto Ross Roy Data Book, which I also agree with you. But, I think this information is still relevant and historic, for there is almost no other DeSoto Division documentation (brochures or literature) that mentions this information.

I was fortunate enough to just receive an e-mail from an Adventurer car collector, who was "kind" enough to make scans of the pages from their 1958 DeSoto Ross Roy Data Book. And I also decided to share with everyone, page E5 showing the Adventurer engine specs. and page E12 showing information on the otional EFI system. I have also "highlighted" these specific areas on these two pages, by "adding" a black box border around the information.

 I am sure that there are some DeSoto service bulletins or in the DeSoto Report monthly magazine issues that are out there, which will contain more "detailed information" on its optional EFI systems. But, so far I have not found any, and maybe some car collector who has this information will be kind enough to share this it with all of us ??

Finally, I see that you had uploaded a photo of the DeSoto dealer price list. What model year is this for ??

 

Thanks Rick





(Ross Roy 1958 desoto adventurer engine specs..jpg)



(Ross Roy 1958 desoto adventurer EFI info.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-12 11:58 AM (#464453 - in reply to #464437)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
electricalengineer - 2014-12-13 6:25 AM

I see that you had uploaded a photo of the DeSoto dealer price list. What model year is this for ?

Thanks Rick


=======================================================

Why, 58, of course ! This is a salesman's pocket guide "cheat sheet". Something he could carry
around the lot and answer question off of. They are impossible to find because they always got worn
out. As you can see, this one served as a calculator too !

I always wondered what car Cecil Cameron ended up buying ?

As you can see, that Adventurer convertible was nearly $5K in basic form. Not that they weren't
loaded in basic form, but a buyer could still add a lot of options to one, driving the price closer to
$7K if they worked it. A lot of ordinary homes were selling for this kind of money at the time. THAT
was an expensive car ! And the amazing thing about that was, 4 years later it wasn't worth SQUAT !





(58 adv conv in 1962.jpg)



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d500neil
Posted 2014-12-12 12:59 PM (#464459 - in reply to #464453)
Subject: Re: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
5000500050002000200010025
Location: bishop, ca
Rode hard and put-away wet.


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soiouz
Posted 2014-12-12 2:05 PM (#464463 - in reply to #464453)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



Expert

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Location: Montreal, Canada
Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-12 11:58 AM

electricalengineer - 2014-12-13 6:25 AM

I see that you had uploaded a photo of the DeSoto dealer price list. What model year is this for ?

Thanks Rick


=======================================================

Why, 58, of course ! This is a salesman's pocket guide "cheat sheet". Something he could carry
around the lot and answer question off of. They are impossible to find because they always got worn
out. As you can see, this one served as a calculator too !

I always wondered what car Cecil Cameron ended up buying ?

As you can see, that Adventurer convertible was nearly $5K in basic form. Not that they weren't
loaded in basic form, but a buyer could still add a lot of options to one, driving the price closer to
$7K if they worked it. A lot of ordinary homes were selling for this kind of money at the time. THAT
was an expensive car ! And the amazing thing about that was, 4 years later it wasn't worth SQUAT !




What a great picture, Doc! ..and it reminds me of this one, taken at about the same time.



(10735668_10152422930891938_373655767_n.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-12 9:41 PM (#464485 - in reply to #464463)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
The Fireflite shot was taken in eastern Canada. I have the original postcard, but cannot remember
the name of the town off the top of my head.

The Adventurer is interesting, as it appears to be painted with a black side sweep. While 56 Adventurer
was offered with six combinations of black, gold, and white, Ed Petrus submits that this was reduced
to four combos for 57, with the black/white combos no longer offered.

I have no documentation on this subject for 57 or 58, but here we see what appears to be just such
a car. Could have been painted later, of course, but white and black seems a bit uninspiring to my
sensibilities to cover up a gold sweep. I guess we'll never know. Makes for a rare and interesting
reference point of a super rare and seldom photographed DeSoto.
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-12 10:07 PM (#464488 - in reply to #464453)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-12 11:58 AM

electricalengineer - 2014-12-13 6:25 AM

I see that you had uploaded a photo of the DeSoto dealer price list. What model year is this for ?

Thanks Rick


=======================================================

Why, 58, of course ! This is a salesman's pocket guide "cheat sheet". Something he could carry
around the lot and answer question off of. They are impossible to find because they always got worn
out. As you can see, this one served as a calculator too !

I always wondered what car Cecil Cameron ended up buying ?

As you can see, that Adventurer convertible was nearly $5K in basic form. Not that they weren't
loaded in basic form, but a buyer could still add a lot of options to one, driving the price closer to
$7K if they worked it. A lot of ordinary homes were selling for this kind of money at the time. THAT
was an expensive car ! And the amazing thing about that was, 4 years later it wasn't worth SQUAT !

 

Hi Doctor DeSoto,

 

Could you please explain to me why you say that your DeSoto salesman card is for the 1958 car models?  Your DeSoto salesman card shows that the "Firedome" was equipped with a Torqueflite automatic transmission. And in the 1958 DeSoto brochure, it shows the 1958 Firedome model came with the 3-speed manual transmission as standard equipment.  And in the 1959 DeSoto brochure, it shows the Firedome had the Torqueflite automatic transmission as standard equipment.

Finally, I am no expert on the DeSoto car models, and I am just wondering how do you know for sure that your DeSoto salesman card is for the 1958 models and not for the 1959 car models ??

 

Thanks Rick

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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-12 11:32 PM (#464492 - in reply to #464488)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Parts Unknown
Well, that would be because it says "1958 Model Cars" right on the front ! It is well known around
these pages that I loathe the 1959 Mopars and I'll tell you straight up that I would not own one or
the paperwork to go with them !

My guess, regarding your question, is that most Firedomes were "pitched" with Torqueflite as what
was pretty much an automatic upgrade (no pun intended). Guys who sold these cars new told me
thay did just that. Same with Firesweep. The salesmen were pushed to sell them all with Torqueflites
and hand out quotes with that upgrade already included.

I can count the number of 58 DeSotos I have seen outfitted with Powerflite at exactly ONE ... and
that was on a Firesweep. I cannot recall ever seeing a Firedome with a Powerflite, even though it was
"standard" equipment.

What I find odd is the reference to both Fireflites AND Firedomes here being equipped with bumper
guards. This was a fairly irregular option to see on 57's or 58's, especially on Firedomes and Sweeps.
I would have to check my references to confirm my thinking that they were standard equipment on
Fireflites (If memory serves, Ed says they were not), but I recall seeing reference to them being so.

I used to live and breathe these cars, but after 20 years away from it all, my memory is getting fuzzy
on specifics of what I knew and what those references were. As my shop comes together and the DeSoto
becomes more center stage to being worked on, I will have more access to all my ephemera. If it weren't
for your asking for the Ross Roy references and me recently seeing it amongst my stuff, I would not be
able to add any of this stuff you've seen so far.

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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-13 12:16 AM (#464495 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi Doctor DeSoto,

"Okay", thanks for confirming that your DeSoto salesman card is for 1958 car models. Again, I have one more "silly" question for you.



For the 1958 DeSoto "Adventurer" car models, I also see on most of the websites and also listed in the 1958 Standard Catalog of American Cars for the 1958 DeSotos, that the base price listed for the 2-door hardtop = $4071 and for the 2-door convertible = $4369.


And on your 1958 DeSoto salesman card, the base prices listed for the 1958 DeSoto "Adventurer" is: 2-door hardtop = $4615 and for the 2-door convertible = $4920.

Could you please explain why there is different base prices listed for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer ??


Thanks Rick



Edited by electricalengineer 2014-12-13 6:40 AM
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-13 6:50 AM (#464508 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi again Doctor DeSoto,

I have also uploaded the scanned page from the 1958 Standard Catalog of American Cars for the 1958 DeSotos. And it also lists the base prices for the 1958 DeSoto "Adventurer" car models.


Thanks Rick





(DeSoto 1958- Standard Catalog of American Cars.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DeSoto 1958- Standard Catalog of American Cars.jpg (197KB - 244 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-13 2:38 PM (#464541 - in reply to #464508)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Parts Unknown
Note that the book reference is 300 and 600 dollars off on respective Adventurer models !

Like the old adage says: Just cuz you read it in a book, don't make it so ....

I like "horses mouth" intel sources.
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-13 6:36 PM (#464566 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi Doctor DeSoto,

"Very Interesting" information about your DeSoto salesman card. Again, I have never seen the base prices that is listed on your card, in any other reference book. I also have attached a scanned page from another car reference book that is currently in my library collection, which is called "American Cars 1946 to 1959 -Every Model, Year By Year" and its author is: J. Kelly Flory, Jr. This car reference book is over 1000 pages and the base prices listed for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer car models, is "exactly" the same as the base prices that are listed in the 1958 Standard Catalog of American Cars - 1958 DeSoto, which I have already uploaded.

Finally, is there anyway there you could also take a photo of the other side of your DeSoto salesman card and upload it onto this site ?


Thanks for all your replies-Rick





(DeSoto car models info.-American Cars 1946-59.jpg)



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Attachments DeSoto car models info.-American Cars 1946-59.jpg (317KB - 156 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-13 9:16 PM (#464570 - in reply to #464566)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Parts Unknown
This last posting says the Adventurer had a "nylon and leather" interior !!! I am quite sure it was
trimmed in diamonds and 24 karat gold too !

Ed Petrus has broadcast it here that power seat and windows were dropped as standard Adventurer
fare for 57, but I have never seen any original documentation saying one way or the other. Latter day
books say all sorts of things (like nylon and leather .... leather was never an option after 1956), so I
tend to insist on original paperwork and don't put too much stock in what some book says. This little
pocket "book" was what the DeSoto salemen prowled the lot with, not some "reference" book. I would
like to see the reference source for these book's numbers.

That said, almost all Adventurers I have seen over the past 40 years have had both power seat and
windows, leading me to believe they were standard equipment and the few built without were special
option delete orders. At almost $5K, I would expect them to have all the gee-gaw !!!

Also of note, 1958 Adventurers did NOT have stainless rocker mouldings. The only 58 DeSoto cars
to get these were Spring Special cars with that particular item specified to the car. Many Spring Special
cars were ordered without.
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-14 8:14 AM (#464605 - in reply to #463976)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Hi Doctor DeSoto,

I am not doubting your "expertise" on the subject of DeSoto car models. And again as I have previously stated, that I am no expert when it comes to the DeSoto car models.

My previous comments that I have made, is that I find it quite "interesting" that I have never found the base prices listed on your DeSoto salesman card in any other reference materials, books, or websites. The two reference books that I have already uploaded, are often used by most automotive experts and historians as a major source and a "go-to" guide for their research reference materials. But, I also agree with you, that not everything written in books is 100% factual.

I even dug further into my archive files, and found an original New York Times newspaper article dated November 3rd 1957, which shows the base prices and its increases for the 1958 car models. And in this article, its shows the base prices for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer car models, which is very "similar" to the same prices that are listed in the two reference books.

Finally, is there anyway you can take a photo of the "other side" of you DeSoto salesman card and upload it onto this site ?

 

Thanks again for sharing your Desoto sales card and all your information-Rick

 

 





(1958 DeSoto car prices-NY Times Article-page-128.jpg)



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Attachments 1958 DeSoto car prices-NY Times Article-page-128.jpg (317KB - 164 downloads)
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soiouz
Posted 2014-12-15 9:47 AM (#464697 - in reply to #464485)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-12 9:41 PM

The Fireflite shot was taken in eastern Canada. I have the original postcard, but cannot remember
the name of the town off the top of my head.




The picture was taken in Rivière-du-Loup, Quebec, just an hour west of where I grew up. I have another picture of the same car when it was brand spanking new.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-15 1:13 PM (#464710 - in reply to #464697)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Parts Unknown
OK, ... let's see it !!!
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christine-lover
Posted 2014-12-15 1:48 PM (#464722 - in reply to #464697)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Sept. 1958
soiouz - 2014-12-15 9:47 AM

Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-12 9:41 PM

The Fireflite shot was taken in eastern Canada. I have the original postcard, but cannot remember
the name of the town off the top of my head.




The picture was taken in Rivière-du-Loup, Quebec, just an hour west of where I grew up. I have another picture of the same car when it was brand spanking new.


Yeah, we want to see that!!!!
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57burb
Posted 2014-12-16 10:27 AM (#464833 - in reply to #464492)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-12 10:32 PM

What I find odd is the reference to both Fireflites AND Firedomes here being equipped with bumper
guards. This was a fairly irregular option to see on 57's or 58's, especially on Firedomes and Sweeps.
I would have to check my references to confirm my thinking that they were standard equipment on
Fireflites (If memory serves, Ed says they were not), but I recall seeing reference to them being so.


A brief non sequitur of 1957 Desoto information follows...

Nearly every Desoto I've found with bumper guards "in the wild" was a Firedome, including the terribly rusty '57 coupe I had a few years ago.







The guards were not standard equipment on Adventurers. Below is an example.

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soiouz
Posted 2014-12-16 11:28 AM (#464841 - in reply to #464722)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Montreal, Canada
christine-lover - 2014-12-15 1:48 PM

soiouz - 2014-12-15 9:47 AM

Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-12 9:41 PM

The Fireflite shot was taken in eastern Canada. I have the original postcard, but cannot remember
the name of the town off the top of my head.




The picture was taken in Rivière-du-Loup, Quebec, just an hour west of where I grew up. I have another picture of the same car when it was brand spanking new.


Yeah, we want to see that!!!!



Here it is!

This was a wedding held in the same town, in the spring of '58.

Edited by soiouz 2014-12-16 11:30 AM




(1384963_10151750780041938_814036758_n.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-16 12:22 PM (#464845 - in reply to #464833)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
57burb - 2014-12-17 7:27 AM

Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-12 10:32 PM

What I find odd is the reference to both Fireflites AND Firedomes here being equipped with bumper
guards. This was a fairly irregular option to see on 57's or 58's, especially on Firedomes and Sweeps.
I would have to check my references to confirm my thinking that they were standard equipment on
Fireflites (If memory serves, Ed says they were not), but I recall seeing reference to them being so.


===================================

A brief non sequitur of 1957 Desoto information follows...

Nearly every Desoto I've found with bumper guards "in the wild" was a Firedome,
including the terribly rusty '57 coupe I had a few years ago.

The guards were not standard equipment on Adventurers.


===================================

Perhaps I need to rephrase the comment. In use, the first thing to get bonked and repaired/
altered is the bumpers. And while latter day field observations can be useful, they or only 30+
year old evidence with infinite chances to have been tampered with along the way.

I find it interesting when a subject like this is verified in company literature. Reference books
are notoriously uncredited and the information therein accepted as fact by car guys now. After
finding some of this impossible literature, and this book intel does not synch with the factory-issued
data, I'm left wondering where these authors got their intel, or in the absense of good research
back in the 80's and 90's, was just made up or conjectured to be "close enough".

The Adventurer model is an oddity I don't really work into the equation of what's what. Like the
300 being a NY'er, purposely tweaked to look different and have a unique interior, so was the Adventurer
tweaked from a standard Fireflite to stand out against its common model lineage. Did they omit
bumper guards on the Adventurer to make them different ? I don't know. It's not like you see
unmolested examples all the time to take notes of. I have never seen a factory piece of lit detailing
what was and was not sold on an Adventurer. All I've ever seen are battered originals and over-
restored examples with every piece of gee-gaw someone could add, leaving me no more wiser for
originality.

At this point in time, I have an idea in my head on what is "correct" for each model that I am
interested in, some of it based on factory lit, some of it from years of field observation. But I would
hesitate to step out there and say "This is just so ...." because I have no hard evidence to support
such claims. I think the final word on the subject is "never say never", and that all evidence (even
factory) could be overruled by someone with the right connections or a buyer with money. MOST
times it would be this way or that, but there were almost always exceptions. At least with the factory
lit, we can establish the intent at the time as a baseline.

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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-16 12:26 PM (#464846 - in reply to #464841)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



5000500050005000200050025
Location: Parts Unknown
soiouz - 2014-12-17 8:28 AM

The picture was taken in Rivière-du-Loup, Quebec, just an hour west of where I grew up.
I have another picture of the same car when it was brand spanking new.

Here it is! This was a wedding held in the same town, in the spring of '58.


=======================================================

Can you ask the newlyweds to step to the side so we can see if this car has power seat
and windows, please ?
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soiouz
Posted 2014-12-16 1:53 PM (#464859 - in reply to #464846)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Posts: 3480
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Location: Montreal, Canada
Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-16 12:26 PM

soiouz - 2014-12-17 8:28 AM

The picture was taken in Rivière-du-Loup, Quebec, just an hour west of where I grew up.
I have another picture of the same car when it was brand spanking new.

Here it is! This was a wedding held in the same town, in the spring of '58.


=======================================================

Can you ask the newlyweds to step to the side so we can see if this car has power seat
and windows, please ?


Haha! I would also like to ask if I could buy the car.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-16 6:27 PM (#464884 - in reply to #464859)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Parts Unknown
Or just ask them to garage it and only use it for summer driving so it will survive ....
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electricalengineer
Posted 2014-12-16 10:52 PM (#464909 - in reply to #464845)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto


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Posts: 60
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Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-16 12:22 PM

I find it interesting when a subject like this is verified in company literature. Reference books
are notoriously uncredited and the information therein accepted as fact by car guys now. After
finding some of this impossible literature, and this book intel does not synch with the factory-issued
data, I'm left wondering where these authors got their intel, or in the absense of good research
back in the 80's and 90's, was just made up or conjectured to be "close enough".

 Hi Doctor DeSoto,

 I am not sure how to respond to you comments, but just for your information.., even factory literature and service bulletin-manuals have had some misinformation or "errors" that were printed in them. I also have numerous examples that I would also be happy to provide to you.

I have also found another reference book source in my archive files, which shows the base prices for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer car models. Again, it shows the "exact" same base price info. that is also in the other two reference books that I have already uploaded onto this site. And this base price info. is from the NADA Guide Book (2014 Classic Collectible Car edition) for the 1958 DeSoto car models. The NADA (National Automotive Dealers Association) was originally formed in 1917. And it started to produce automotive price guide books in 1933, during President Roosevelt's NRA (National Recovery Program). The information and pricing that is contained in its yearly price guide books, is obtained from its vast network of car dealerships.

I also find it a little hard to believe that (3) major reference books and also from the Nov. 1957 published New York Times newspaper, would all have incorrect base pricing information that is printed in them, for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer car models ??

 

Again, it would also be nice if you would also take a photo of the other side of your card and upload it onto this site, so everyone could see and enjoy it.

 

Thanks Rick

 

 





(NADA desoto-page-1958 models.jpg)



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Attachments NADA desoto-page-1958 models.jpg (293KB - 155 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2014-12-16 11:22 PM (#464910 - in reply to #464909)
Subject: RE: Ross Roy Data Book for 1958 DeSoto



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Location: Parts Unknown
Your sources above say $4369, $4314, and $4639. No two match.

I don't know what to say. I am showing everyone a piece of factory lit made specifically for
dealership salesmen to use on the lot, and you are showing us three different numbers from
three different non-factory sources.

... and now you are asking me to show you more of my factory lit ! Why, so you can tell us
it is wrong ?
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