Hi Doctor DeSoto,

"Thanks" again for your reply. This is not a chess match, to see who wins. I could care less if I am wrong, for I only care about searching and getting the historic facts corrected. And the base price shown for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer 2-door hardtop in all (3) reference books is the "same" $4071 pricing and its also "very similar" to the price shown in the November 1957 New York Times newspaper.

And after closer examination, I believe that the last reference book (NADA Guide Book) has a "typo error", where two of the numbers (numbers 6 and 3) were "transposed" in its printed base price for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer Convertible car model, where it shows $4639. I personally think that it should of been $4369, which would also "match" the other (2) reference books and also be "very similar" to the pricing, that is shown in the November 1957 New York Times newspaper.

Finally, I am not insulting your expertise or your salescard. Again, as I have previously stated, that I have never seen your sales card pricing on any major websites, reference books, newspaper articles, advertisements, or any other printed document materials. And the reason why I have ask you to share with all of us the other side of your card, is to try and clear up any confusion or misinformation that has been documented for many years.

Thanks again for all your comments and expertise-Rick

Doctor DeSoto - 2014-12-17 12:26 PM

After accumulating and pouring through the "garbage" of dozens of former dealers looking for
parts and paper back when this was still possible, I was shocked to discover these price cards.
Never knew they existed. Never seen another one since. The intel they revealed was not only
the stuff we all want to know, but it was straight from the proverbial horse's mouth.

I have the same salesman's card for 57. I need to find it and see what it says for Adventurer pricing.

Rick, your writing style comes off as glib and pushy. I asked THREE times what you intended to
do with this information, and we never did get an answer. Are you building an Adventurer specific
website ? Writing an article ? Hoarding it to be the Adventurer "big shot" ? What ? Your profile
reveals exactly nothing about you, you are evasive when questioned, and pushy in your requests.
Most of these guys on this site have been here for years and we all know one another and it is a
free sharing situation. You show up, don't tell us a thing about yourself, the car/s you own, your
interests, location, nothing ! And then you want us to all cough up our intel. Wassup, Bro ?

"Thanks" to Chrycoman, ttotired, 300XMAN, and Lancer Mike, for their latest post replies and information.

I actually thought that the dealership car sticker prices had started with the 1958 car models ? I had looked in my archives files and also found a New York Times article link, which has more detailed information on this new car law that passed in July of 1958. However, I am not sure if the law that had passed in July 1958, meant that all the rest of the 1958 cars being produced, must have a car sticker price attached immediately or that the law went into effect starting with the production of the 1959 cars. This new 1958 legislation car law was also endorsed by the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA).

In any event, "Thanks" to 300XMAN for this valuable info. and below is The New York Times article link...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/automobiles/04MONRONEY.html?_r=1&

Here is some additional information ...

The 1958 DeSoto Convertible base price (MSRP) that is listed in the NADA Guide Book is definitely a "typo-error" (printing error), where the numbers 6 and 3 are transposed, and should of be listed as $4369, instead of $4639. The base prices listed in the NADA Guide Book for the 1957 DeSoto Adventurer car models are: $3997 2-door Hardtop and $4272 Convertible.

Chrysler Corporation had announced and was published in the November 1st, 1957 edition of the New York Times -page 48, that its 1958 base prices would increase 1.3 - 2.9% higher, for all of its division car models over its 1957 car model base prices. And in the November 3rd 1957 edition of the New York Times -page 128, it showed the new 1958 base price increases to be "approximately" $74 for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer 2-door Hardtop models and "approximately" $96 for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer Convertible car models. And finally, if you add these 1958 base price increase to the 1957 NADA base prices, you will get $4071 for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer 2-door Hardtop and approximately $4369 for the 1958 DeSoto Convertible car models.

Final Thoughts ...

I personally believe that the sales card that was uploaded onto this site, is not an actual 1958 DeSoto Division "base price" (MSRF) sales figure card. I believe that this sales card was actually issued - printed by the individual dealership and given to its sales people, which is really an "Out the Door" or "Total Sales" price card, that also included the destination delivery charge, all taxes, title and registration fees, and car preparation charges.

Comments to Doctor DeSoto last reply ...

I usually do not reply back to personal attacks. I had joined this website to gather and also "share" my knowledge on Chrysler history, for I have a passion for Automotive history. And I did reply back, when you asked me what I plan to do with the information. Below is my response that I had previously made.

"Finally, I have a passion for collecting data information on "rare" options that Chrysler Corporation had offered and also preserving its history. And after awhile when I have accumulated enough information, I will often write about it and share this information with others, so they can also enjoy it as well. I also hope that everyone has enjoyed the new information that was added on the subject of EFI systems and will continue to add other information in the future as well and preserve its history".

Now, let me ask you a question..., What do you plan to do with all the information and photo materials that I have uploaded onto this site ??

Thanks again to everyone else that had contributed their information and replies-Rick

Hi CustomRoyal-Jim,

I want to personally "Thank You" for downloading your DeSoto Confidential Price Bulletins dated Nov 1, 1957. And these official factory DeSoto bulletins shows the "actual" base prices (Factory Retail Prices) for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer car models. And if you also "add" the "D. E. & H." (Distribution Fee, Excise Taxes, Handling Charges) figures that are shown at the right column, you will get a final factory base price (M.S.R.P.) of $4016 for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer 2-Door Hardtop and $4314 for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer Convertible. These DeSoto Bulletin base prices, are also the "same" base prices that were listed in the New York Times newspaper article dated November 3rd 1957.

And as far as the base prices that are listed for the other (3) major references books that I had already uploaded, which are: $4071-1958 DeSoto Adventurer 2-Door Hardtop and $4369 - 1958 DeSoto Adventurer Convertible, there probably was a later "Price Increase" bulletin that was issued after this November 1, 1957 DeSoto Division Bulletin.

Finally, what is the "D.E. & H. charges" that were for the fuel injection option, for these numbers were cut off from your scan ??


Thanks again for clearing up the confusion and for also preserving history, by keeping these DeSoto documents. And that is the real reason why I have a passion for automotive history, is for the fact that just as you think that you have learned everything, you discover that there is another fact or piece of imformation that you never knew about !

Thanks and I hope that everyone is enjoying all of the information that has been presented so far -Rick

Rick

Hi CustomRoyal-Jim,

"Thanks again" for all your information and photo materials that you have uploaded onto this thread. You have also answered a lot of the questions that arose, for the 1958 DeSoto Adventurer car models and its original factory MSRP base prices.

And as far as the EFI option price, I have always seen the optional $637.20 price for the 1958 Adventurer car models in many articles and websites. But, I have never been able to find any official DeSoto factory documentation that supports this $637.20 pricing information, other than in the 1958 Standard Catalog of American Cars for the 1958 DeSotos-page 320. And if you "add" the factory retail price for the EFI option ($592.20) plus the ($45) D. E. & H Charges, then you will get a total of $637.20.


Thanks again for providing us with your DeSoto Bulletins and info. -Rick

Hi Brad,

I do have the 1955-58 MoPar Parts List for Passenger cars (U.S. Edition), but unfortunately there are many of the EFI parts that are not listed in it ??

For Example (parts not listed): Electronic Modulator Unit, Resistance Box, Fuel Injectors, Triggering Selector Unit, Primary and Secondary Throttle Bodies, Pressure Regulator/Vapor Separator

It would be very kind of you, to either e-mail me or upload this Chrysler Corporation EFI Parts list that you have.

And I also will be uploading and sharing additional EFI info. that I found in my archive files, with everyone very soon.


Thanks again for all the replies and historic information that has been added so far- Rick

Hello Everyone,

I uploaded page 320 from the reference book "1958 Standard Catalog of American Cars for the DeSotos." I had already uploaded this page, but the EFI pricing info. was accidentally covered up with my blow-up insert of the 1958 Adventurer car models MSRF factory base prices. Therefore, I uploaded this same page again, which shows the optional EFI $637.20 price that was available for the 1958 DeSoto Adventures car models.

Rick

(Standard Catalog for American Cars-1958 DeSoto.jpg)

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"Thanks" Chrycoman for your last reply and information that was given.

Here is some more "interesting" information that I had found ...

 I have found some interesting information in my archive files, which sheds some additional light on the 1958 DeSoto sales card pamphlet, that Doctor DeSoto was kind enough to upload onto this site.

This "official" looking DeSoto sales card pamphlet, that says "De Soto Dealers Association Inc.," was not issued by Chrysler Corporation or from its DeSoto Division.

De Soto Dealers Association Inc., was an independent organization that was formed by a group of local area DeSoto car dealerships, and also it was not affiliated with the National Automotive Dealers Association (NADA) nationwide network. The De Soto Dealers Association Inc, was setup by a local group of DeSoto dealerships, to "artificially inflate" the manufacturer's retail base prices. Also, it would required the local group of DeSoto dealers, not to sell its cars below a certain price. And this local group of DeSoto dealerships would show these "inflated priced" printed pamphlets to the consumer customers, who would think that it came directly from the DeSoto factory headquarters.

Starting around 1950, the Federal Government had starting to look into these deceptive auto practices and ordered Federal Grand Jury investigation of (49) car dealerships and (10) dealer associations, which one of them was De Soto Dealers Association, Inc. And by 1955, the Federal Government 's Justice Dept. had pursued an Antitrust lawsuit against certain car dealerships and local deal associations, that conspired in what it called "price fixing."

Ultimately, this lead to the U.S. Congress taking decisive action, which in late 1958 a law was passed for all car manufacturers to put a car window sticker on each of its cars. It would list the manufacturers suggested retail price (MSRP), all factory options and prices, and destination delivery charges. And the National Automotive Dealers Association (NADA) nationwide network had also endorsed this law, which was necessary to end any car dealership's deceptive sales practices and also to gain back the consumer's lost confidence.

Finally, I think that the above information has finally solved the 1958 DeSoto sales card pamphlet's base price mystery. And again, I want to "thank" Doctor DeSoto for uploading the "other side" of his DeSoto sales card pamphlet, which is still a great piece of automotive history.

Thanks Rick

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Hello everyone,

Here is some more "additional" info. that I have found, which I think is quite interesting.

I had found another article in my archive files, which shows (8) other local Dealer Associations, which represented over 300 car dealerships, had conspired to "artificially inflate" prices and also for "price fixing". The Department of Justice and its legal court system had fined these independent local dealer associations, in violation of the Antitrust laws.

Thanks and I hope that everyone is enjoying all the wonderful and historic info. that has been presented so far-Rick

(Car Dealer Associations article-1959.jpg)

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Hello everyone,

Here is some more "interesting" info. that I have found ...

When Doctor DeSoto was kind enough to finally uploaded the "other side" of his DeSoto sales card pamphlet, I was somewhat suspicious of this "official" looking item. I originally noticed that there was no Chrysler Corporation or DeSoto Division name that was printed on the front and back of this sales card pamphlet. And secondly, I noticed that this pamphlet had printed "Suggested Prices" and also "Suggested List Price," but intentionally left off the words "Factory or Manufacturer" on it.

And if you look at the November 3rd, 1957 New York Times Newspaper, you will find that it has the "Suggested Factory List Prices" wording printed in its article. Also, if you look at the DeSoto Confidential Price Bulletin dated November 1st, 1957 that CustomRoyal-Jim was kind enough to upload, you will also see the wording "Factory Retail Price" printed on it.

That is when I had decided to do further investigation and research, and discovered the the name "De Soto Dealers Association Inc." that was printed on the sales card pamphlet was not affiliated with the Chrysler Corporation or its DeSoto Factory Division. And it was an independent association or organization that was formed by a local group of DeSoto dealerships.

I was also able to find two additional independent dealer associations that had "similar" names. One was called "De Soto Dealer Association of Northern California," which started operations on May 21, 1948. And the other one that I had found was called "De Soto Dealers Association of Southern California," which started operations on January 5, 1949. And I don't think that any of these DeSoto dealer associations were connected with each other, but instead they were separate local or regional car dealer associations.

The National Association of Dealers Association (N.A.D.A.) was originally formed in 1917 and was a nationwide major organization that represented 25,000 of the 35,000 car dealers that existed during the 1950's. And in order for a any car dealer to join this national organization, it must obey the standard of ethics and rules that were imposed by the N.A.D.A. organization. And it was setup and believed in transparency, to protect both the car dealer and also the consumer. In 1933,  N.A.D.A. would gather new and used car price information reports, that were obtained from its network of nationwide car dealers, and started printing its yearly official car price guide books.

Finally, I have uploaded a 1950 N.A.D.A. advertisement that came from my archive files.  And I also uploaded photos of an actual 1957 dated N.A.D.A. price guide book, which shows the "Factory ADP" (Factory Advertised Delivered Price -later renamed M.S.R.P.) for the new car models and also the "Average Retail Price" for used car models. (Note: The photo pages of the 1957 N.A.D.A. price guide book, came from the Ebay website)

Again, I want to thank Doctor DeSoto for uploading his "interesting" DeSoto sales card pamphlet, which is a great piece of automotive history.

Thanks for all the replies-Rick

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Hi Doctor DeSoto,

Thanks for your reply. And I do think that things have changed for the better, ever since that car manufacturers were required by law, to attach car sticker prices (M.S.R.P.) to its new cars. Prior to this law being enacted, car dealers were often known to "Price Packing" its new cars that were being shown on its showroom floors, by "artificially inflating" the car factory's retail base price and its options ordered and then lump it all under "one" selling price. Plus, these same car dealers would often join a local car dealer association, that would conspire to "Price Fixing," and not allow its car dealer members to sell the car under a certain price. These same car dealers and its associations would often keep the consumers in the dark, where they had no idea of what they were being charged for. And the consumers would often be paying "higher" retail car base prices, than what the factory had originally suggested to its dealers.

Today, if you are a real savvy car buyer, you can often buy a car for $100 over the deal invoice or the cost of what the dealer pays for the car. However, the dealer will still get back other rebates and volume discounts that is from the manufacturer and not offered to the buyer. And today's dealer will now make most of its money not for the sale of the car, but  instead will make most of its money from dealer option add-ons, financing, extended warranties, car trade-ins, insurance, and parts-service.

I have also uploaded (2) additional 1958 newspaper articles from my archive files, that talks about the new car sticker law and also about eliminating "Price Packing" that was occurring from car dealers. And I also uploaded a 1959 Plymouth Fury car window price sticker, that was affixed to the manufacturers car, after the new law had been enacted in late 1958. (1959 car price sticker obtained and uploaded originally from Forward Looking website member- UnrestoredBelvedere)

Thanks again for all the replies and comments-Rick

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HI Neil,

"Thanks" for uploading your 1957-58 Dodge News magazine info., which shows a 2-page color Swept-Wing '58 advertisment and which also mentions the EFI option.

The first two photos (PICT3013 and PICT3014) that you had uploaded, that are from the 2-page color Swept-Wing '58 advertisment, and which shows a yellow Dodge Royal convertible and a red/white Dodge Custom Royal Lancer 4-door, what Dodge News magazine issue did these come from (Vol 22 #11-1957 November or Vol 23 #1-1958 January) ??

Thanks again for your reply-Rick

Hi again Neil.

I looked thru my research files, and I think that I have found the answer to the question that I have previously asked you. I have found a copy of the Dodge News Magazine volume 22 number 11 (November 1957) and also the magazine's same 2-page Dodge Swept Wing advertisement that you already uploaded onto the site. I have also uploaded the Dodge News magazine's front cover and its full 2-page advertisement, which I have also highlighted the wording "electronic fuel injection" that is shown in its ad. ( Note: Magazine issue and ad was originally obtained from past ebay website auction results)

Interesting, I also noticed that your last photo that you had uploaded (PICT3016) does not use contain any wording that says "electronic fuel injection." But, it does contain info. on its new Dodge wedge-type V-8 engine that was capable of getting 333 hp, and which is the specs. that Dodge had used for its EFI systems. I believe this photo (PICT3016) info. materials, goes with the January 1958 issue of the Dodge News magazine volume 23 number 1, that you also uploaded onto this site.

I also agree with you in the fact that this information is generic and not very earth shattering news. But, it is still very relevant and historic information that has been presented. And I had been told by a major large seller of vintage automotive literature materials, that the 1957 and 1958 Dodge News magazines did not have any advertisements or info. on its optional EFI systems in these particular issues.

And what makes this information so important, is the fact that Chrysler Corporation and its divisions did "very little" advertisement of its optional EFI systems. In fact, I have never been able to find any Plymouth or DeSoto brochures- advertisements on its optional EFI systems. And for the Chrysler Division, I only know of one brochure and no other advertisements that showed the optional EFI system, which is in the 1958 Chrysler 300D black and white sales brochure.

Finally, I have also found a Dec 1957 advertisement in my archive files for the 1958 Dodge Swept Wing cars. And this ad is "very similar" to the 2-page ad that came from the November 1957 Dodge News magazine volume 22 number 11. But, the poses and clothing of the woman and man are different, and also the wording used in this ad is "Electronic Fuel Injection Engine."

Thanks again for uploading your Dodge News Magazine info-Rick

(1957 Dodge News Vol 22 number 11 magazine.jpg)

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Hello Everyone,

After looking thru my archive research files, I have found (2) additional pieces of 1958 Dodge car brochures, that had mentioned the "optional" electronic fuel injection system and which was available for all of its models (except station wagons) that had also ordered the "new" D-500 361 cu.in. wedge-type combustion chamber V-8 engines.

The first color 1958 Dodge sales brochure "Lancers By Dodge," mentions the optional EFI system on the back "Specifications" page. And the second color 1958 Dodge sales brochure "Swept Wing 58," shows the EFI system on an inside page and also on the back "Specifications" page.

Finally, the Dodge Division had produced the most EFI sales materials, which was at least (2) different late 1957 sales advertisements, that were already uploaded onto this thread, and also (2) different 1958 color sales brochures, which all of them mentions its "optional" electronic fuel injection system.

And, I have also found only (1) Chrysler Division 300D black & white 1958 sales brochure and no advertisements, on its "optional" electronic fuel injection system.

But, I have never been able to ever find any sales advertisements or brochures, for the 1958 Plymouth or DeSoto car models, that mentions its "optional" electronic fuel injection system. Does anyone happen to have any Plymouth or DeSoto advertisement information, that they would like to upload and share with the rest of us ?


Thanks to everyone that has contributed and hope that you are enjoying all of the historic and interesting info. that has been presented so far. - Rick

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"Thanks" RDP, for uploading your 1958 Dodge and Chrysler 300D brochures, which mentions the optional electronic fuel injection systems. I also have the "same" 1958 Chrysler 300D B&W brochure in my archive files, and there was another inside page of this brochure that had mentioned its optional EFI system, which I have also uploaded this info.

Also, I had just found a "rare" 1958 Dodge Engines Brochure that was selling on a recent ebay auction (not mine), and it contained a whole separate page for its optional EFI systems, which I have also uploaded this info.

Finally, I am quite surprised that I have never been able to find any advertisement or brochure info. for the 1958 Plymouth and DeSoto optional EFI systems.

Although, I was told that there is some advertisement and article info. on the DeSoto Adventurer car model's optional EFI system, which was in its DeSoto Report and DeSoto Retailer factory monthly magazines issues, starting from October 1957 - March 1958.
Unfortunately, I do not have any of these DeSoto factory magazines issues. But, maybe one of members will have them and be kind enough to uploaded this info., so we can all enjoy them.


Thanks again for all the wonderful replies and interesting photo info. that has been uploaded so far.-Rick

(Chrysler 1958 300 D brochure-EFI Info.jpg)

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