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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
 
Location: Tulare Ca | Hey There all! I reinstalled my Radio over the Weekend Just To Have it work for about 2 min and then a white puff of smoke then it quit. So I Cracked open the radio to Find that the wire had burn off the old insulation and break the wire.
What I would like to confirm is that the wire that connects to this copper-colored plate runs to the back of the volume switch. I wanted to make sure this is before i replace it, just to realize i soldered the wire to the wrong place and do some damage. Thanks!!
Edited by Myke 2014-09-09 10:03 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
 
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Hah.... I just had the radio out of my car on Saturday to change the bulb! Wish this post was a few days earlier so I could check! Right now, I'm going off the schematics from the Service manual.
Can you tell us what radio you have? I'm assuming this the radio out of your Savoy? On the top panel of the radio, there's a large white paper sticker. There's a schematic there as well. It will say Philco, or perhaps another manufacturer. It's probably a Philco, but there are other possibilities. Also, can you confirm if you have a 5 pushbutton radio or a 7 push button radio? Also, on the side, you may or may not have a little bump on the side of it. If it does, you have a hybrid radio with a transistor, which means it's probably the "normal" Philco radio used thousands of Plymouths. However, there's two US manufactures it could be and I need to make sure I'm looking at the right schematic before I start yapping.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there's a bit of a dark cloud that you should be aware of. That wire probably didn't just get hot and melt because it was old I'm afraid. Something big shorted out. From your photo, I can see that you still have the old "Can" type capacitor hooked up to your radio. Can you take a close look and see if there is a light brown matter that may be present along the base of the can? The can capacitor is that big silver thing with all the writing on it located by the brown wires that probably go to your speaker. These can Capacitors do not age well. When new they contained fluid which acted as an insulator. As these capacitors age, they leak fluid. Mostly they short open or just plain quit working; sometimes they short closed. If they short closed, they can do very bad things to a radio. Further, there are additional capacitors inside and in that open external area. You may find a large white object that looks like it was dipped in wax. That is an old school paper capacitor and it's probably toast. Inside the radio, there are small black colored cylinders that have colored lines on them. They are what some radio guys call "Black Beauty" capacitors. They are essentially the same crappy paper capacitors that that the one I mentioned before is, but in a pretty black plastic case. These are also very prone to failure. There's an example of a Black Beauty capacitor located directly behind the first tube in your second photo.
I believe that your radio probably has a short in it (hopefully it's the can capacitor) and that it would benefit from what radio guys call a "re-cap". Basically what this is removing all of the electrolytic capacitors from the radio and replacing them with modern ones. It's not hard to do yourself, but if you're not comfortable with doing this work, you might want to seek out a radio guy in your area. I had to do this with radio in my Fury. This should not cost an arm and a leg. There's about $25.00 worth of parts required (and that's probably on the high side), plus labor to do the job.
Anyway get back to me here when you get a chance to look at that schematic on your radio and let me know what make of radio you have and we can go from there. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Hey Thanks for The Reponse! As for the Can looks like There Was A Little bit of a Leakage From it A Long time ago as there is a ghost of a brownish streak along the chassis wall its mounted to.
As for Electronic Work, Im Used to soldering, its nothing new. Just as long as i have some help with the electronic component side or the work. As my electrical knowledge is fairly limited.
There Is A Schematic On The top of the Lid But i Failed to mention That this is a Philco 848 5 button. however i do not know how to read the schematic
As For "Black Beauties", there are two.
these three may be the ones that really need replacing as there is only one paper cap and it seems to have held it age well.
Thanks Again!
Edited by Myke 2014-09-09 11:33 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Ok, I'm on it. Are you sure there's only two of the black caps? Seems to me there were 5 or six of then in my radio. They're black plastic with color codes on them, just like a resistor. For homework (lol), can you get me the color codes of all your black capacitors? As far as the paper cap goes, when they're 56 years old, they are automatically considered no good, so we'll need to replace that one too. There will be writing on it....something like .047 MFD or something to that extent. The color coding that you take from the black capacitors will tell us what you need to source.
When we replace the wax capacitor and the black plastic capacitors, we use something that electronic geeks call Orange Drop capacitors. They're quite commonly available. Is there an electronics place (not Radio Shack) in your area? Maybe even a radio repair place? I can give you a website to go to, but if there's a place in town, it's probably just as easy to head there with a $20.00 bill in your pocket and pick up what we determine that you need. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Prior post continued......
Your can capacitor is shot. That brown stuff is what's leaking out of the capacitor and it's definitely toast because of what you found. There are probably two values written on the outside of the can. They will be numbers followed by MFD or mFd, or something like that. If memory serves me correctly, there are two different numbers on this. The number of numbers ending in MFD is the number of electrolytic capacitors in the can. The plan will be to disconnect the can, and wire the new capacitors free-air inside the radio chassis.
So...if you would....check again the number of "Black Beauty" capacitors inside the radio and write down the color combinations of each one. Grab the numbers off the can, and if there's a voltage on the can, grab that too. It's probably 35 Volts or something like that. Finally, grab the numbers of the wax capacitor. One we have those, I'll arm you with a shopping list!
I kept all my old parts, so when you grab the numbers, I'll compare with mine. It is a 58 Plymouth you are working on right?
Edited by sconut1 2014-09-11 12:55 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Sorry... I'll shut up after this post.....
You might want to check this out: http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm
This is what we're going to do with your radio. It explains a lot about your radio's issues. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Sorry Ive Been Busy the past few Days. Anyways i Read Your Post wrong I thought You Were reffering To The Tall Skinny Black Tubes As the Black Beautys. Ok Im gonna post the capaciter colors such as R=red B=blue Y=Yell S=Silver Br=Brown Pr=Purple ETC.
(1) Y,Gry,B
(1) S,Y,R,Br
(1) S,G,R,Br
(1) G,Gry,B
(1) S,Y,R,Gry
(1) G,Pr,Y
(1) O,O,G
(1) S,O,Gry,Br
(1) Y,Pr,Y
(1) O,Pr,Y
(1) Br,G,Y
(1) Br,R,R,S
Then For The can
500 MFD 18 V.D.C
200 MFD 18 V.D.C.
Wax Cap:
61-0183
.5 Mfd
working voltage 100
One end Had A Red Band Painted around it that Also Says "outside" with a Star next to It
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | Myke,
I can send you a schematic for your radio, if you have the model number and manufacturer... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Hey Brad Thanks!, its A Philco Mopar 848 Or Philco P5701 I believe it goes by both |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Bump |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Ok... let me figure these out for ya... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | I'll make a couple of replies here....
The Wax Capacitor:
Tools required:
- Soldering Iron or Soldering Gun
- Sharpie Marker or whatever fine point black marker you've got kicking around
- Side cutters
- Solder (NOT ACID CORE as used in plumbing). Anything you purchase at Radio Shack or better yet, the industrial electronic supply house in your area has will be ok.
- Some really small pieces of heat shrink tubing.
- Optionally (De-soldering braid)
- Bic Lighter
I'm looking at my old one as I type away! Same markings as yours.
.50 MFD is not a common value. You're allowed 20% tolerance and probably can get away with even more.
Replace this with an 0.47 MFD or a .470 MFD Orange Drop capacitor. I found 600V capacitors cheap and readily available. As long as what you find is 100V or better, you're good. I know the radio runs of 12 V, I've just been told to always replace caps with equal or larger voltage values.
Don't worry about polarity.... for this capacitor, you can install it either way. The red band on the old paper cap is not meaningful to us at this point.
If memory serves me correctly, there's a brown wiring block that this thing connects to. Using the sharpie, clearly mark the location where this capacitor is connected. If you want to get fancy, you can try and de-solder the leads using de-soldering braid. If memory serves me correctly, when I did this job, this thing Pi$$ed me off and I found it easier to cut it's leads using a pair of side cutters and just solder the new one on where the old one was attached. Put the small pieces of heat shrink on the capacitor's leads before you solder it on. Once you've got it soldered, grab the Bic lighter and shrink the tiny pieces of heat shrink tubing on the capacitor's leads. This will help avoid accidental shorts.
Difficulty rating: Buck simple. 1 hour or less to complete.
Edited by sconut1 2014-09-17 10:47 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | The Can Capacitor:
As a yung 'un, (under 50), IMHO, these have got to be the dumbest friggin thing ever invented. What your can capacitor is, is two capacitor in one in a totally inconvenient to change, failure prone unit. There, I said it. I kept my old capacitor as well, and it's the same values as yours is.
Tools required:
- Soldering Gun . Beg, borrow or buy. It might be possible to do this with an iron, but you need lots of fast heat to remove the can capacitor.
- Sharpie Marker or whatever fine point black marker you've got kicking around
- Side cutters
- Solder (NOT ACID CORE as used in plumbing). Anything you purchase at Radio Shack or better yet, the industrial electronic supply house in your area has will be ok.
- Optionally (De-soldering braid)
- Masking tape
- 3" or so of 14 gauge wire.
Purchase:
- A 470 MFD capacitor (Axial leads are preferable) to replace the 500 MFD ELECTROLYTIC capacitor (in the can). 25V was readily available to me.
- A 220 MFD capacitor (Axial leads are preferable) to replace the 200 MDF ELECTROLYRIC capacitor (in the can). Again, 25V was readily available to me.
As far as voltages for the above, as long as you're 18V or better, you're good. Don't get too carried away though. See if you can get 25V stuff (super common). If you start getting into big voltages, you're going to get physically larger capacitor which won't hide nicely in the radio chassis and cost more for no benefit.
****Polarity is important this time ******
******Did I mention......Polarity is important this time ******
Shall we begin?? Allow 3-4 hours.
Before beginning.....
1. Send any resident children to their BFF's house.
2. Send wife/girlfriend to her BFF's place armed with a girly movie, pizza, a bottle of wine, cheese, crackers and your credit card.
3. If you smoke, purchase two packs
4. Purchase a 15 pack of your favorite beer. Drink one before you start.
5. Tie up the dog some place where it will be happy and won't pi$$ you off.
Radio Surgery
1. Locate the can capacitor.
2. Use the Sharpie to mark on the can the two contacts. I wrote a one and a two on the can.
3. Use the masking tape to tape the wires going to each lead. Leave a little tab with the masking tape big enough for you to write on. Mark them the same as the markings you made on the can. Now you know where stuff went.
4. You have a choice here.... attempt to de-solder the wires going to the Can Capacitor using de-solder braid or carefully cut the wires as close as you can to the terminals on the can capacitor.
5. Remove the can capacitor from the radio. This sucks. Follow your nose, use your de-solder braid an be patient.
6. Once you have the can capacitor removed from the radio, you might want to take a break.
7. Look at the writing on the can capacitor. There are two geometric symbols beside each capacitance listing. In my case, one is a square, and the other is a triangle. Examine the bottom of the can capacitor. Where each lead comes out, you'll see a little shape cut out. In my case, one cut is the shape of a triangle, the other is a square. So, whatever symbol is on each line, identifies which lead. (In my case, and not necessarily in your case, but maybe, the 500 MFD was a square, and the 200 was triangle.
8. Put heat shrink on the capacitor leads, giving you enough room to solder
9. For the balance of this, we're going to pretend it's my capacitor we're changing. In my case, the square is 500. So we're going to put the 470 in it's place. Grab the replacement capacitor. There's a marking on it. It it's non-descript, or shows a minus sign, that's the negative lead. If there's a positive sign, then it's the positive lead. I don't want to say this carte blanche, but I believe that almost always, the marking indicate the negative lead. Solder the wires that went to the square to the POSITIVE lead on the capacitor. Now use your lighter and melt the heat shrink. If you can't get the heat shrink tubing over your solder job, a little black tape is in order.
10. Now we're going to go after the 200 MFD lead. It's the one with the other shape and is the only remaining wire left. Same as above. Solder it to the POSITIVE LEAD on the new 220 MFD capacitor you bought. Shrink the heat shrink and tape if necessary. Ok.... we're 1/2 done!
11. Tie the two negative leads together. Solder the little hunk 3" or so hunk of wire to the negative leads you tied together. Melt the heat shrink tube with the bic lighter.
12. Guess what.... you're whole radio chassis is negative!!! So, what you need to do now is solder the remaining end of the 3" (or whatever works) to someplace on the metal chassis.
13. Done!
I know we haven't addressed your burned up mystery wire. I'll do that next (probably tomorrow). It's time we powered the girl up and see if it plays now. (Hint... if it does....we're still not done, but we'll talk about it)
Difficulty level: Medium, but potentially irritating.
Edited by sconut1 2014-09-17 11:10 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | The Wire and Black Beauty capacitors....
Stay tuned for my final episode....... |
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | Trying this...I scanned them. They may be too large. |
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | Sorry, cannot do. If I shrink them too much, the fine details become too small...
If you want, I'll email them to you. Just PM me your address... |
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Expert
Posts: 1739
Location: Alaska | Hey Gord, what about the 14 other steps with the beer? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | sconut1 - 2014-09-17 10:04 PM
Tools required:
- Soldering Gun . Beg, borrow or buy. It might be possible to do this with an iron, but you need lots of fast heat to remove the can capacitor.
- Sharpie Marker or whatever fine point black marker you've got kicking around
- Side cutters
- Solder (NOT ACID CORE as used in plumbing). Anything you purchase at Radio Shack or better yet, the industrial electronic supply house in your area has will be ok.
- Optionally (De-soldering braid)
- Masking tape
- 3" or so of 14 gauge wire.
/QUOTE]
Great instructions! However the solder should be specifically 60/40 (Tin/Lead) rosin core solder. What is commonly found and sold (and nobody mentions this), is the 95/5 (Tin/Antimony) RoHs compliant solder. It is not a good idea to use the "new" solder on the old radio sets which were assembled with the 60/40 solder. The High tin solder will undermine the joint causing a crystalline structure to the joint similar to a "cold" solder joint . In severe cases the high Tin solder can eventually cause a phenomenon know as "Tin Whiskering" where little whiskers sprout out from the joint causing shorts etc. This was a problem encountered in the very early years of Radio (which is what prompted the development of the 60/40 solder in the first place) and has re-appeared in our interests to eliminate lead which is what the RoHS designator means. If you're at your Electronic supply store you may have to ask for the 60/40 Rosin core solder. Just thought you'd like to know .....
Edited by grunau 2014-09-18 9:53 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Interesting... I hadn't heard of 95/5 solder. I'll keep a watch out for it. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Hey Myke.... can you take some more shots of the radio? A direct up top shot? Another close up of the top and one of the back of the volume control? It will help us to figure out the burned up wire
Edited by sconut1 2014-09-19 3:55 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Sure Ill Post Them Tonight When I Have Time To Resize Them. Thanks Again for Your Time!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Also, Im Having Trouble Finding A Replacement For the Wax Cap (Locally Anyways,) I Did Find A 1 uF Ceramic Cap, Would Ut Work In place of the .5 uF Paper Cap?
Edited by Myke 2014-09-20 4:36 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | I'm most radio circuits, you can replace the capacitors with ones of a higher value. Never go lower! However, some circuits are "tuned" so a different value than the one it was designed for, can change how the radio operates or sounds. I try to replace caps with ones of an equal or only slightly higher value.
A great place to order capacitors from is Bob's Antique Radios and Electronics, in Lagrange Park, Illinois. His phone number is 708-352-0648
Web site is radioantiques.com
He has no minimum order, and a flat rate shipping cost in the U.S. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Hi Myke, no, 1UF is too big. I know what Brad is talking about in the above post, but .47 is fine. It should be very readily available. I replaced my .500 UF cap with this in my radio with no issues. If there's a larger size (up to 20%), you can go that way, no problem, but there's no problem with the. 47 UF. I'm suggesting that one, just because it's so common.
The thing to remember, ( I got this from that antique radio site I mentioned earlier), as capacitors made in the era that our cars were made in, just simply were not as good as the stuff made today. The cheapest made-in-China low-end capacitor today, is significantly better quality (i.e. tolerance) than anything that came out in the 50's. I've even read that in some cases, 100% tolerance is allowed, but I wouldn't do that. Go a little bigger if you choose, but 20% either way and you'll be just fine. I bet all the caps in your radio right now are more than 20% out of tolerance as the radio is right now...lol. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Brad....what's the next common value above .47 UF? Is it within 20% of 50UF?
Edited by sconut1 2014-09-23 1:10 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Myke...BTW, if you're having issues finding this stuff, give that guy in IL a shout. If he happens to have .50 UF cap....by all means! It's the right one bang on! Just don't pay extra for "OEM" wax dipped caps, he offers those for sale still. Get the modern Orange Drop capacitors. I'm the biggest restoration purist around, but I've been warned about old school caps. Get the new stuff.
Edited by sconut1 2014-09-23 1:19 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | .5uF is the same as .47uF, which is the modern equivelent. You can go larger; the next size up is .68uF. But be warned that not all circuits like the value change. 50uF is NOT the same as .47uF. The decimal is missing!
If you need caps, I have tons of em here. I stocked up at the radio meet in Illinois this summer. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Im Sorry I Havent Wrote Back. Ive Been Really Busy. Anyways I did find and order an Orange Drop .47 uf. itll be Here Saterday. And Thanks for Offering to help With the Radio, The work is Not overwhelming as Its pretty simlar To What i Used to Do when I Raced R/C Cars. I Picked Up Soldering and A little Bit of Electronics Knowledge From Em. Work on My Car is always pretty slow When Trying to Weave it Around School and Marching Band.
Edited by Myke 2014-09-25 7:41 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | No problem....I was off last week too. Started rippin' and tearing on my 318 I picked up in CA in January! Brad is right above, by the way. I forgot to put in the decimal point. That's one thing I'm going to have to be careful with when we're chatting is typos for cap values! A decimal is a BIG friggin' deal with this stuff.
Edited by sconut1 2014-09-30 2:20 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Myke... in your photo, there's an ugly black stain on the radio "wall". It's beside a power resistor (that white square thing). Did something burn up there other than the wire? |
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Expert
Posts: 2633
Location: Minor Hill, TN | I would take it to someone who repairs these radios . |
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Expert
Posts: 2264
Location: McComb, Mississippi | Myke is capable of repairing his own radio. |
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Expert
Posts: 2633
Location: Minor Hill, TN | OK |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 782
Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Hey Myke.... any progress? Did you get a chance to take those "overhead" shots yet? |
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Radio Repair Question
