The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Dash speaker 6x9 is toast
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Body, Glass, Interior and TrimMessage format
 
b5rt
Posted 2014-07-22 9:24 PM (#450117)
Subject: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Expert

Posts: 2519
2000500
Location: central Illinois
I'm tearing down my dash and the speaker is toast. I'm confused by some things I've read about our original speakers were 8 ohm but new speakers are 4 ohm. They're saying that running the modern 4 ohm's will hurt an original radio.

I'm NOT looking for an upgrade or a switch to a modern system. That will happen for the rear speakers and a separate amp.

Anyone have any insight on where and what I should be shopping for as far as an original/factory style replacement?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
jimntempe
Posted 2014-07-22 10:26 PM (#450126 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Expert

Posts: 2312
2000100100100
Location: Arizona
See this.... http://www.garytayman.com/dvc.htm
Top of the page Bottom of the page
rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-07-22 11:52 PM (#450143 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 524
500
Location: West Jordan
There are still companies that make 8 ohm 6X9’s without running dual voice coils. Yes a 4 ohm will draw more power from the amp and burn it up. However the dual voice coil will affect the watts. Lest say the factory amp in the radio is 10 watts, I don’t know I have not looked up, but let’s just say it is. with a single 8 ohm coil that is 10 watts. But on a dual voice coil speaker it is 2 coils at 4 ohms each for a total of 8 ohms. That gets the amp load right for the radio however, the watts has dropped. Basically you are dividing the 10 watts between the two coils so you will turn the radio volume up to get the same sound and that will be hard on the radio. So if you can live with that then go for it. But you are better off with a full 8ohm speaker. Do a search for 8 ohm 6x9 or get yours rebuilt.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
fin junkie
Posted 2014-07-23 6:30 PM (#450239 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: RE: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast


Regular

Posts: 53
2525
Another option would be to have the speaker re-coned or buy a kit for an 8 ohm speaker and do it yourself.

Here is a link to a re-coning kit from the Speaker Exchange website:

http://reconingspeakers.com/product/6x9-diy-aftermarket-recone-kit/

Youtube also has videos on how to do it. For $25.00 and shipping, it doesn't look too difficult and may be a viable alternative to repairing these speakers.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
d500neil
Posted 2014-07-23 7:59 PM (#450252 - in reply to #450239)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
5000500050002000200010025
Location: bishop, ca
Radio Shack sells 6x9" 8 ohm 3-way speakers.

That's on the parcel shelf.

The dashboard size is 4x6" speakers, and the Shack sells them, too.


Top of the page Bottom of the page
b5rt
Posted 2014-07-23 8:31 PM (#450254 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Expert

Posts: 2519
2000500
Location: central Illinois
Thanks for the input guys. And especially for the explanation Darren.

Neil, I measured it myself and it's a 6 x 9 without question in my 60. We have a Radio Shack so I'll check them out.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
d500neil
Posted 2014-07-23 9:45 PM (#450267 - in reply to #450254)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
5000500050002000200010025
Location: bishop, ca
Be sure that they check their catalog; what's best for you might not be on their shelves.


Top of the page Bottom of the page
b5rt
Posted 2014-07-23 10:03 PM (#450268 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Expert

Posts: 2519
2000500
Location: central Illinois
Well I did some checking at RS and this one is a 4 ohm, so the search continues. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=24777966

http://www.bossaudio.com/auto/car-audio-sound-system-auto-stereo-sp...

Edited by b5rt 2014-07-23 10:04 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
d500neil
Posted 2014-07-24 4:00 AM (#450285 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
5000500050002000200010025
Location: bishop, ca
http://www.ebay.com/sch/6000/i.html?_nkw=6x9%22+8+ohm+s...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
jimntempe
Posted 2014-07-24 3:07 PM (#450328 - in reply to #450143)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Expert

Posts: 2312
2000100100100
Location: Arizona

rushpowersystems - 2014-07-22 8:52 PM There are still companies that make 8 ohm 6X9’s without running dual voice coils. Yes a 4 ohm will draw more power from the amp and burn it up. However the dual voice coil will affect the watts. Lest say the factory amp in the radio is 10 watts, I don’t know I have not looked up, but let’s just say it is. with a single 8 ohm coil that is 10 watts. But on a dual voice coil speaker it is 2 coils at 4 ohms each for a total of 8 ohms. That gets the amp load right for the radio however, the watts has dropped. Basically you are dividing the 10 watts between the two coils so you will turn the radio volume up to get the same sound and that will be hard on the radio. So if you can live with that then go for it. But you are better off with a full 8ohm speaker. Do a search for 8 ohm 6x9 or get yours rebuilt.

 

Yes, the 10 watts is divided between the two coils.  But since there ARE two coils being powered it means you add the power (5 watts being disappated in each) from both of the coils together and you get the same 10 watt total result as with a single coil.  There is no difference between one coil that adds up to 8 ohms and two coils each at 4 ohms that are hooked in series.  In simplest terms, an 8 ohm coil might be 1000 turns of fine wire that has a total resistance of 8 ohms.  To make a 4 ohm coil you just do 500 turns of fine wire (half the wire is half the resistance).  Now put two of those 4 ohm coils back to back and hook them in series and you have the original 1000 turn coil again.  That's what is going on when you wire the dual voice coil coil's in series to make the two 4 ohm coils into one 8 ohm coil.

 

There is also an explanation here

http://knowledge.sonicelectronix.com/car-audio-and-video/car-subwoofers/what-are-the-differences-between-single-and-dual-voice-coil-subwoofers.html

of the advantage of using dual voice coil speakers to provide the flexiblity of being able to get 2, 4, or 8 ohm ratings from the same speaker simply by wiring it differently.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-07-24 4:44 PM (#450337 - in reply to #450328)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 524
500
Location: West Jordan

jimntempe - 2014-07-24 1:07 PM

rushpowersystems - 2014-07-22 8:52 PM There are still companies that make 8 ohm 6X9’s without running dual voice coils. Yes a 4 ohm will draw more power from the amp and burn it up. However the dual voice coil will affect the watts. Lest say the factory amp in the radio is 10 watts, I don’t know I have not looked up, but let’s just say it is. with a single 8 ohm coil that is 10 watts. But on a dual voice coil speaker it is 2 coils at 4 ohms each for a total of 8 ohms. That gets the amp load right for the radio however, the watts has dropped. Basically you are dividing the 10 watts between the two coils so you will turn the radio volume up to get the same sound and that will be hard on the radio. So if you can live with that then go for it. But you are better off with a full 8ohm speaker. Do a search for 8 ohm 6x9 or get yours rebuilt.

 

Yes, the 10 watts is divided between the two coils.  But since there ARE two coils being powered it means you add the power (5 watts being disappated in each) from both of the coils together and you get the same 10 watt total result as with a single coil.  There is no difference between one coil that adds up to 8 ohms and two coils each at 4 ohms that are hooked in series.  In simplest terms, an 8 ohm coil might be 1000 turns of fine wire that has a total resistance of 8 ohms.  To make a 4 ohm coil you just do 500 turns of fine wire (half the wire is half the resistance).  Now put two of those 4 ohm coils back to back and hook them in series and you have the original 1000 turn coil again.  That's what is going on when you wire the dual voice coil coil's in series to make the two 4 ohm coils into one 8 ohm coil.

 

There is also an explanation here

http://knowledge.sonicelectronix.com/car-audio-and-video/car-subwoofers/what-are-the-differences-between-single-and-dual-voice-coil-subwoofers.html

of the advantage of using dual voice coil speakers to provide the flexiblity of being able to get 2, 4, or 8 ohm ratings from the same speaker simply by wiring it differently.

 

Well so much for keeping things simple;

 

As you will notice in the link they are talking about “subwoofers” connected to an amp that is bridgeable, most likely 1 ohm stable. The purpose for that is to get two speakers into one location, so if you have room for 2 subwoofers you can run 2 dual voice coil woofers and drop your ohm load down to want ever your amp can handle.

 

But that is not what we are talking about here, the 6X9 in the link is a coil for the bass and a coil for the mid and a coil for the highs. The mid and high are on a shared line. Its apples to oranges.

 

Now the other problem is you are sending the full spectrum to the speaker, I don’t see any form of cap or coil to take the bass out of the tweeters and vice-versa. You make speakers play frequencies they are not designed to and it will sound like crap and in some cases it will distort and that will be hard on the amp in the radio. They can get away from it because we are talking about such low power that it will take many years to damage the amp.

 

That is a large magnet and there is a lot of mass in the cone, the woofer needs all 10 amps to play as it is designed. Notice it has 140 RMS watts max, generally you will run about 50 to 75% or full RMS, so its efficiency level is around 70 amps, got that in your radio?  

 

 

So your math is correct IF we are talking about 2 subwoofers of the same ohm and design, but the math does not work here. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
jimntempe
Posted 2014-07-25 9:17 PM (#450481 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Expert

Posts: 2312
2000100100100
Location: Arizona
<p>The original question was how to get a 6x9 8 ohm speaker. The Dual voice coil speaker that was suggested was a speaker that is just exactly that, dual voice coils, not a tweeter and woofer. Two identical 4 ohm coils mounted to the same cone. It's intended to be used to replace the original factory center of the dash AM radio speaker so that you can use a modern stereo and hook the right channel to one voice coil and the left channel to the other voice coil. It's not a great stereo setup for the front but it lets people put a stereo speaker up front without having to chop up the kick panels or doors. As explained before, due to how it's made with the two coils it can be easily turned into an 8 ohm speaker by simply hooking the coils in series (with due regard to polarity).</p>

Edited by jimntempe 2014-07-25 9:22 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-07-25 9:47 PM (#450489 - in reply to #450481)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 524
500
Location: West Jordan

 From the linked web site

Banging head on desk.

 

Ok look at the photo. The large round part is the woofer, it takes up most of the space in the 6x9, the two round speakers in the center are the mid and high. The woofer is one coil and the mid and high are each one coil, the woofer is run off one input and the mid and high are on the other. A stock speaker does not have mid and highs built in, it is a true single 8 ohm coil speaker. What you listed is not the equivalent of a single voice coil 8 ohm factory replacement. What you listed is not two identical 4 ohm coils, if it were what then powers the mid and tweets? What is so wrong with using a single 8 ohm speaker that is designed for 10-15 watts? 

Why are you taking this so personal? You gave an option and so did I now let it go, OP can look at both and decide what works best for the needs. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
fin junkie
Posted 2014-07-25 10:56 PM (#450497 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: RE: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast


Regular

Posts: 53
2525
Check the websites for the companies that rebuild old car radios, they usually have replacement speakers that will work.

Here is a link to one that has an 8 ohm, 6x9 speaker that will fit.

http://www.turnswitch.com/speakers.htm
Top of the page Bottom of the page
jimntempe
Posted 2014-07-26 12:57 AM (#450501 - in reply to #450117)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Expert

Posts: 2312
2000100100100
Location: Arizona
Nothing taken personally. You are simply wrong in what you are saying and confusing people needlessly. If it worked as you claim you'd have nothing but the bass from the left channel and nothing but the treble from the right channel. Hardly a suitable stereo setup. I have one of these speakers and took photos showing how the wiring works. It's clear that there are TWO voice coils mounted on the cone and that their wiring is completely separate from each other. One coil is wired to the left channel and the other to the right. The same is true for the tweeters, each of them is separate from the other. They are separately hooked to the left and right channel. It's all clearly shown in the photos.



(dual coil 1.jpg)



(dual coil 2.jpg)



(dual coil 3.jpg)



(dual coil 4.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments dual coil 1.jpg (198KB - 60 downloads)
Attachments dual coil 2.jpg (217KB - 51 downloads)
Attachments dual coil 3.jpg (197KB - 49 downloads)
Attachments dual coil 4.jpg (106KB - 56 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
rushpowersystems
Posted 2014-07-26 2:01 AM (#450505 - in reply to #450501)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 524
500
Location: West Jordan

jimntempe - 2014-07-25 10:57 PM Nothing taken personally. You are simply wrong in what you are saying and confusing people needlessly. If it worked as you claim you'd have nothing but the bass from the left channel and nothing but the treble from the right channel. Hardly a suitable stereo setup. I have one of these speakers and took photos showing how the wiring works. It's clear that there are TWO voice coils mounted on the cone and that their wiring is completely separate from each other. One coil is wired to the left channel and the other to the right. The same is true for the tweeters, each of them is separate from the other. They are separately hooked to the left and right channel. It's all clearly shown in the photos.

 

Yup, I am wrong, only been rebuilding speakers and custom mobile electronics since 85’. I really have lost interest in this but I will set the record straight and them you can just argue with yourself.

Photo 1:

 They are not tweeters, they are two mid speakers one is caped to block out lower frequencies. The cap is the round black piece on the left. The way this speaker is set up the woofer plays all frequencies, from around 50 HZ to its distortion point, probably around 500 HZ, it should be choked at 80-100 HZ but that is a design defect of that speaker.  The mid cuts in at about 80 HZ and goes to 20K or so. The only good thing about this design is the other caped mid can’t play the lower frequencies. So you will get OK sound out of what the radio can produce.

 

Photo 2:

That is the dumbest thing I have ever seen, why on earth would you bolt a metal plate to a speaker magnet. That mount is affecting speaker efficiency, You never want something metal on the back of the speaker magnet.  However the red is going to mids and high as I have said, green is going to woofer as I have said.

 

Rest of the photos:

I am not talking about how the speaker is wired internally, I am talking about how it is wired to the radio in this photo on the web site you linked to:

 

So you have one output on the radio, either positive and negative or negative to ground.  In the photo it is wired in series, 2 coils at 4 ohms to get 8 ohms, at the very start I said it will work but it will not be efficient and it will be hard on the radio. That speaker wants 70 watts to be efficient, the radio can’t do that.    Now you can run it in parallel and that would solve the shared watts problem, but you will over drive the amplifier in the radio because the ohm load will be 2 ohm and that will cause the amp to run at 100 watts for a split second before it smokes. The fact is this design has no ballance. 

Now if you have a head unit with a front and rear output you could hook one front and rear to each side but it would sound strange on some songs. But if you hook up that speaker as shown you will need higher volume to get the same sound as a single voice coil.

Now if you were going to run one of the dual speakers at the bottom of the page like this one:

 

 

Then you will have two identical 4 ohm speakers, that would be in balance, it will still effect watts but it is closer to what you are trying to say.

 

And again why does he have to do it your way? Why can’t he just get an 8 ohm singe voice coil speaker? We have installed turn switch products, they are very good and the price is about the same and there are lots of other companies that do the same thing. So why can’t he just use a single 8 ohm?  

Look, it’s clear you are happy with your set up, not everyone does things the same way, just stop talking about things that you have no knowledge in. as for OP, if you need more info send me an email or PM I am happy to help, but this is not productive. 

 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
LD3 Greg
Posted 2014-07-26 2:11 AM (#450506 - in reply to #450501)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast


Expert

Posts: 1906
1000500100100100100
Location: Ontario, Canada
What I know about audio systems one could document on the back of a postage stamp! What I do know is that I have spent thousands of dollars over 25 years in an attempt to "upgrade" to the various "best" approaches to upgrade my cars for the best sound........ Bottom line. Forget it!!

I just sold my 300 F. I spent hundreds of dollars to have a digital conversion along with new speakers for that car. The new purchaser just looked at me as if I was crazy!!

Down load your own music on your mobile device and play it via several Bluetooth speakers tragically located in your car!!
Enjoy,
Greg
Top of the page Bottom of the page
d500neil
Posted 2014-07-26 3:16 AM (#450508 - in reply to #450506)
Subject: Re: Dash speaker 6x9 is toast



Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!

Posts: 19146
5000500050002000200010025
Location: bishop, ca
Yeah, I guess that any digital sound system would be tragically located in our cars.

I like the simplicity of Darren's wiring scheme, above.


Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

* * * This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated * * *


(Delete all cookies set by this site)