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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | yesterday and all didn't go as planned . first light up and stall i looked under the motor , had a puddle of oil , maybe a pint . the seal under the hollow bolt that holds the filter adapter
failed , fixed that . next try , got it to where it would run , grabbed the timing light already hooked up and waiting , runs rough , motor stalls . fire it again , runs about 5 seconds , blows
a soft plug . couldn't be an easy one to get to , its the front one right bank . now i have about 50$ worth antifreeze puddled under the car being soaked up with everything i could find .
it couldn't be any worse ,,,,,,,,,, well maybe . the biggest worry i have now is will the cam still be alive after all this BS , that's a toss up . sooooo , my next move is to pull the motor
again . replace all the soft plugs my way(motor builder installed the last ones) and redo everything . in all my years of building or having someone else build my motors . i have never
ever lost even one soft plug , this is a first . the most aggravating thing is i went over all of them when i got the motor back from the builder . i've had old ones rot out but never had a
new one blow out .
my wife had said when she came home , i'll bet the neighbors heard what was happening . i said , i never said a word but i about melted into the floor .-------------------------------later |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ......
I'm sure your cam will be fine Chuck, I've had initial start problems in new engines in other brand engines and the cams were all fine, just as soon as you get it to the point where it is running OK, bring the revs up to the 2000 rpm for a while so the oil splash gets all around the lobe areas to take over the job the cam lube previously did.
Most new engines are tight and once they get going the start ups are a lot easier.
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Location: North Australia | Chuck, you may not need to pull the motor, have a real good look before you do, you might/should be able to replace it with the motor in.
I had this problem too, like a LOT of people, (which I found out when I started researching what happened). My engine is freshly built 1960 413 and has 1 5/8 holes in the block and 1 3/8 in the heads.
Of course, you are probably like me and paranoid that all the new plugs are sus, and want to do them all.
I have 2 questions, the plugs are concave disk type? Was it the right head that spat the plug, or right side of the block?
I have 2 suggestions if your plugs are disk type. Have you checked out the stainless plugs from hot heads? If the hole is 1 5/8, these hot head plugs are an option for the block holes. With some minor mods they may be alright for the head casting too.
If it was the head you might consider doing what I did and make some plugs that wont come out. below is 2 pics of the plugs I made. I will put these into a thread I started on my 413 problems too, and finish that thread. I have installed these and they have a couple hundred miles on them now.
Another thing to consider is the replacement plug size. There are suppliers that supply plugs that come in 1/64th sizes. This could also be a root cause why some people have this problem. They install 1 5/8 plugs, when they should have used 1 41/64 plugs e.t.c. Look here for some info.
http://freezeplugfactory.com/
Hope this helps Mate. BTW I agree with Van, your motor will be fine, just run it up to 2 grand for 20 or 30 minutes with zink rich oil and she will be sweet
Steve.
Edited by 60 Imp 2014-06-24 8:31 AM
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Location: North Australia | Chuck, another consideration, but I don't know if this applies to the Poly engine is my theory of steam being formed in the cooling water circuit because of the high point in the circuit in the heads. I am almost convinced this contributed/caused my issue with my 413.
the whole story is here now.
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=51710&...
Keep at it Mate, you are close to driving that rocket ship now!
Steve.
Edited by 60 Imp 2014-06-24 8:54 AM
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks guys ...... it's the right side , front of the block . saucer/disc , it's behind the motor mount and above the frame , with no way to get a straight shot at it -----------------------------------------later
Edited by 60 dart 2014-06-24 2:28 PM
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Location: Perth Australia | Sounds like the fun I went through with mine as well
I think I lost the left rear first, but eventually, the all came out
I used stainless ones as well and I installed them with blue holimar (silicone sealant), punched them in nicely, on the engine stand ect, thought I did a great job until I put the engine in and started trying to run the cam in, took me 2 days to get a 20 minuit run.
I put it down to using stainless as well, I have never had this issue before.
Re fill it with water Chuck and make sure that your happy that they are going to stay put.
I have to admit that I am still worried about wether mine are going to fall out when it goes on its maiden voyage.
I am still thinking of those dorman type that bolt it
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Location: N.W. Fla. | I use a little J B Weld... |
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Location: Michigan | 600 miles on my engine.. no failures... I should be ok right??? threads like this make me nervous.  |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | 600 mi's , you gotter done the first time-------------------------------------------later |
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | On my 56 Hemi, I had several miles on it, and broke in. A friend who helped me getting the engine running was driving. He got on it a little bit and let off it. I said "punch it" and he did ! I suppose the sudden rush of water from the water pump blew out the front freeze plug. There is a lip inside the hole a little ways , for the plug to seat against, but some of it was broken out. I used a stainless steel plug from Hot Heads that had a "T" on the backside that can't come out . Works good , but what happens if for some reason the block freezes water and cannot pop the plug out? ................................MO |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | most of the time they don't pop out when froze . depending on who you talk to , they aint freeze plugs . they were put in the castings to empty the casting after the cast process . i've never seen one pop out
due to freeze but sure seen a ton of cracked blocks --------------------------------------------later |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | 60 dart - 2014-06-25 2:48 AM
most of the time they don't pop out when froze . depending on who you talk to , they aint freeze plugs . they were put in the castings to empty the casting after the cast process . i've never seen one pop out
due to freeze but sure seen a ton of cracked blocks --------------------------------------------later About it! |
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Location: North Australia | My own 413 had well over 1000 miles or so on it before the plug blew out of the head. For the record the plugs were put in by an Engine builder who has installed many of these plugs, and the car was running very well. I am thinking it is a Chrysler thing!
My take on it now (and before) is fix it once!
The stainless screw in plugs like the HHH plugs is the way to go. They cant come out.
http://www.hothemiheads.com/main_caps/freeze_plugs_stainless.html
They are $80 I think.
You cant buy many new engine components for $80 if the engine gets cooked by the loss of 1 shatty plug.
My own engine currently has new disk type I installed in the block. I put them in real careful when I put the engine together, and they make me nervous, but they are still there. I have the HHH ones above on the shelf ready to go in when I get to it.
Steve. |
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | Mopar1 - 2014-06-25 10:24 AM
I use a little J B Weld...
.....
I've always used Stag jointing paste on all the engines I've done over the years, never had a problem, it was originally made to seal steam pipe joints on steam engines, it's probably ?? similar stuff to JB weld ( never uesed it though ).
Chuck' s right, so called " freeze plugs " are cast to the block to ensure the casting mix is able to be removed from the block.
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Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Done before I got the car....
Anyone recognize this style? Looks like it might have an o-ring.
Edited by jimntempe 2014-06-27 1:07 PM
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | ya jim those are expansion plugs . i used them on a 73 charger many life times ago . they are a good quick fix -----------------------------------------later |
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Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | Those expansion plugs are good to have on hand in case a you lose a plug on the road. Good, simple, easy. They may restrict water flow a little, but I doubt it's a problem. I've used them as a permanent repair on a few engines. |
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Location: Perth Australia | They look like the doorman ones I was talking about
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i walked away from red till this past wednesday , unhooked everything , then pulled the motor thurs. , pulled all the freeze plugs . got a light , looked in at the water jacket , i could seen filth laying , so i poked
around with just my finger . it was still packed in some areas with what ever was in it that the builder was supposed to have cleaned out , BS ,,,,,,, i took the motor outside in the drive , hooked up a hose to the
water pump by-pass fitting . turned the water on and you wouldn't believe the s**t that came pouring out . black as coal and pieces the size of peas . so i poked around inside with a stainless welding rod , cleaned
it up pretty good . made sure the heads were getting plenty of water to . so for now i have a little better piece of mind on the cooling aspect . how much came out , i'd say at least a cup full of dirt , rust and
solidified what ever . i probably ran in excess of 200 gallons through it . sat. i'll go to lowes to get a couple dremel wire brushes to clean up the freeze plug seats --------------------------------later |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | .........
If you can borrow or buy a cheap pressure washer you will flush out much more crap than a plain hose will get out, especially on the inside ( cam side ) of the bores .
I always get a heap more rust out with a pressure wash than a hose wash.
Like you said, your builder should have already done this as a standard part of any engine rebuild.
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i have a pressure washer but by volume , believe me , the hose puts out much more . any how it was running clean when i quit . those hot heads plugs , what size are they ????????? ----------------------------later |
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Location: North Australia | Chuck, 1 5/8". This photo shows what they look like, on the right.
Steve.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=... |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | for some reason , all day yesterday i was thinkin 318 poly are 1 1/2" . what a dumb ass , i know better . especially just bought a set of 1 5/8 from summit . my brain must be turnin to stone --------------------------------later |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 594
Location: Melbourne, Australia | Hey, if anyone is building a motor and has time on their side, they can try this method - Molasses bath Aprox 22 kilos (45 lbs) of horsefeed grade molasses mixed with 6 gallons of hot water to dissolve it then fill the rest of the 44 gallon drum with cold water.... Dunk in the bare engine block and leave for a few months.... It dissolves all of the minerals that have solidified in the water jackets, especially in pre-coolant days and when successful, the block is clean of all rust and looks freshly cast ! I usually spend a few hours with long rods trying to break up the sediment beforehand to speed up the process, but the liquid reaches inside where I cannot. Parts must be free of oil and grease but is cheap ($30) and parts never leave your house! Here is the 350 motor after a week in the bath.... it froths up, so you know its chomping the rust... Colin
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Location: Alaska | never heard of molasses bath. Years ago we would use vinegar in rusty cylinders, soak for a few days to get an engine unstuck. |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | a while back i searched the molasses bath , seems to work and also seems to be real popular down under --------------------------------------------------------later |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ........
Yep, very popular down here as a cheap derusting procedure.
I've done it with a 1/3rd Molasses to 2/3rd water in a plastic 44 gallon drum and used an immersible heating element to keep it at about luke warm temp. Derusted a weather beaten seized engine block in a month for me and I was able to get the stuck pistons out with not too much trouble.
Gotta make sure it's completely immersed in the solution, some people seem to think it's spread on the rusted parts like peanut butter, won't work that way.
Make sure whatever part is derusting has been degreased as the molasses won't eat grease/oil , oh and ya gotta stir the solution regularly as well.
What I did do was pull the block out every day and pressure washed the black gunk off it so the mollases had some fresh rust to eat up each day.
Was down to bare metal in about 3 weeks or so including inside the water passages in the block.
Cheap, easy and works.
Here's some more discussion on it
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10500
......
Edited by VAN HELSING 2014-07-21 2:35 AM
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | like i stated in the other thread , i broke down and bought the the hot heads stainless plugs . didn't really want to but they'll never pop out again ---------------------------------------------later |
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Location: Melbourne, Australia | Thanks for the tip about daily stirring Van Helsing ! Not aware of that one. And yes, 3 seized pistons in this one.... Colin |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i'm wondering if using a pencil concrete vibrator stirring things up , would maybe speed up the process by keeping the fluid moving a good part or all the time --------------------------------------------later |
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Location: Kansas City, KS | Sorry to read about your setback. I just replaced a leaking one last week. This engine has never been out of the car and so obviously not fresh rebuilt. I got lucky with it being the easiest one to replace without pulling the motor. I used a garden hose and a screw driver to clean out the passages. I'm embarrassed to admit how much crud / rust scale came out! I don't see how this engine would have ever kept from overheating? |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | after i got a small dose of gumption back , i mowed the neighbors yard , then proceeded to get things moved around in the garage to install the new hot heads ss core plugs and i aint happy . they surely weren't made
for a 318 poly in mind at all or maybe just my bas***d poly . i figured i do the one that blew first . the way the car sets in the garage , that side would be the hardest first . set up the plug to go in the hole , it did , fine .
tightened it down just snug , i'm thinkin , kool , easy . so i removed it smeared a little black permatex , cleaned the excess of , ok . put the plug back into the hole , got just a tad messy but ok . tightened it down , it starts
spinning in the hole , won't tighten down . now what the hell . so i remove it , take a long look at it , decide to try the others . did the other five but without the permatex . went back to the first one , i decided that the
notches on the ends to keep it centered were for this hole cut too deep , so i flipped the tee bar over putting the notches to the inside ,,,,,,,,,, worked it tightened up but in the process and i didn't use excessive force , i
stripped the socket head bolt . ok , not only that one but one on the other side also . the only way they'll come back out is drill the centers or notch with a dremel and use a large screw driver to remove . but i hope they
stay in . everyone knows they were designed for the early hemi . i don't now what the core holes in a hemi measures but the tee bar inside could be a touch longer by maybe an 1/8th . i would also much rather see a hex
head through bolt with the O ring under the head , recessed like it fits the flush socket head of the now design . at this point i don't know whether to leave em in of remove em and modify to better fit my poly block . i
really don't feel any safer with these plugs over the dish -------------------------------------------------later |
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Location: North Australia | Man, this thing is fightin' you all the way!
Chuck, I would take the stripped ones back out and replace the screw. You should be able to source replacements at any specialist fastener/bolt shop. An easy way to remove might be to drill the heads of the stripped screws out (1/4 " drill) and jiggle the tee and thread out of the water jacket.
Stainless steel cap screws are softer metal than most cap screws (usually grade 8 or better) and it is easy to strip the hex, especially on small counter-sunk ones.
You might be right about the poly block casting being different to the Hemi these plugs were designed for, and therefore taking a good look at how the tee sits in the casting. Be worth checking it out and modify the tees to fit nicely. If I think of anything else, or you do, write it down here, I want to see this thing run!
Steve.
Edited by 60 Imp 2014-08-01 11:09 PM
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | fightin is a lesser term then i'm thinkin . every step has been a fight , from the engine builder to now , every freakin step . today i set the motor back in , bolted the motor mounts and the trans
cross member . i was interrupted by a neighbor at 7 PM. so i stopped for the day . tomorrow it will be the exhaust and what ever i can get before nascar in the evening . as tight as i got the plugs
which was not to the extreme , they might be ok . if they come out this time , i'll gas braze the bas***ds in --------------------------------------------------later |
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Location: North Australia | HA! Good going Man. The plugs should be good if you got em firm. Attention to detail for the rest of the bolt up should see you running that engine in soon.
Steve., |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | before i touched the paint around the plugs , took the handle end of a screw driver and pinged each plug a couple of times to listen for looseness , seemed to be ok . i had forgot my wife was off work today and when she is
i don't mess with the car and tomorrow , sunday , it's nascar at pocono . i don't miss nascar for nothin , not even the car . it's one of my enjoyments of life --------------------------------------------------later |
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Location: atlanta | Chuck, that stroker sounds like more of a career than a project. I'm trying to think if you mentioned anything going right with it, but ya hangin' in there. |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | most of its like , while workin in a coal mine , being struck by lightnin -------------------------------------------------------later |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | well i lit er up again . this time thinkin i might have something wrong with the trip setup i used a 750 holley . ran ok for a bit , when it started getting warm and shut down , about 10 minutes worth and that
was with a fan in front of the rad. also . didn't blow the new plugs . so that part was good . so i added another fan up from still got warm and shut down , another 10 minutes . did the timing and all that good stuff
so why is it shutting down . it was warm but not boilin . temp inside the garage at the time was 108* . so when it started spitting i started lookin at the fuel pressure gauge . it was readin a full 3 lbs. of pressure . yes only
3lbs. and yes it's a new fuel pump and pressure gauge . the kicker is that i can see the fuel in the clear filter and it was barely comin in in a trickle . on top of that i'm gettin water vapor at the filler cap , the draft tube and
the dipstick yube . i know that sometimes when these motors first start after settin for a while they do condense a bit but i'm thinkin this might be a bit much . oh and by the way , the throttle response is lightning quick . the
best of any motor i've ever had . i guess i'm goin to run it off a can the next thing . then go from there to see whats chokin the fuel off --------------------------------------------------later |
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Location: atlanta | Damm, another fork in the road to, THE ROAD! |
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Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ..........
Blocked or partly blocked needle valve in the carb ?
Blocked or partly blocked fuel sock on the end of the pickup tube at the tank ??
Blocked or partly blocked fuel line ??
There's something to start with, could be a few other things............
And yep, if it runs OK on the can then you can work back from the fuel pump to the tank and find the source of the problem.
Most engines will form condensation especially short, cold runs and that's where a good long distance run helps them with "steaming " the water vapor out via extended heating on the run.
Depends on how much vapor you are getting though as to whether it could be just condensation or something else.
Home that's of some help........
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | there's about half a book of things runnin through the long spaces in my head . most of which i really don't want to think about . i guess i'll have to drain the oil pan also to see whats in it . if it is water i have
no idea where exactly it's comin from . its got correct everything with matching heads , motor , everything torqued twice but there is that one dammed plug under the thermostat , but it's brass and JB'ed in . i really
can't see it leakin . before i took it outside to re-clean the water jackets , i pulled the heads on an coolant empty motor . just a few drops of residual coolant was left to drop inside . i do have another clean fuel tank
, sealed up , under my bench if needed but i think i'd like to line it first . this build just boggles the mind and i'd bet MRS. MURPHY is laughin her ass off bout now . -------------------------------------------later |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | haven't done a whole lot but i did drain the oil pan , pulled the intake and valve covers . scared to look in the drain pan cause i know water drained out with the oil . so it's still settin under the
motor . when i pulled the intake there are remnants of water-oil mix . lifters and cam looks ok but went ahead and sprayed everything in the valley with WD-40 to expel what dampness i could .
when i pulled the v-covers it was shocking . everything was covered in light mayonnaise , so i sprayed everything with the WD there also . within a minute the WD did its job and expelled almost all
visible dampness . i checked the head bolt torque , thinkin i might had just possibly forgot to torque , they were all good . most of the intake gasket stayed on the head sides when i pulled the intake
and looked like they had a good compression seal . so there is only 2 possibilities left of where the leak is coming from , head gasket and water pump bolts/seal . i do know i used sealer on all the water
pump bolts . at this point , i'm still stumped . i'm waitin for a gasket set to get here but after that i'll remove the oil pan , spray everything in the block with wd to expel most all of the remaining water . then
i'll clean the pickup tube and oil pump the same way . oil galleries , i'll do the same thing but using air also . i think i can get it 99% water free but finding where the water was coming from is going to be a
chore , i have no guesses or even thoughts as to where exactly its coming from . when i assembled the top end , i took care and checked everything 2 and even 3 times . i'm stumped . ------------------------later |
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Location: Perth Australia | How good was the timing cover Chuck?
Thats my guess as to where it can get in relatively easily
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | haven't got that for buddy . dealin with a ton of anxiety and pessimism----------------------------------------------later |
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Location: Perth Australia | If the block was cracked, I would assume that the machine shop would have picked it up, I know, not always, but I have a couple of timing covers here that are far from good.
I ended up getting an LA one for mine
I know its a P off, but try to look at it as a new repair and just do it
I felt the same when mine kept blowing out the core plugs, I nearly pulled the engine again, thinking I must have blocked a water gallery or something.
Still cant work out how it could build up pressure like it did without a thermostat fitted (has one now) and no radiator cap fitted
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i went over every mm of the timing cover before i chose it for the build , even had it media blasted smooth (exterior) . the one thing i did do was to change all the bolts to stainless . even at that , when the cover is
bolted to the block gasket surrounds the bolts and they are all tight . today my new machine straight edge arrived . maybe it'll help solve the mystery .
the thing with your freeze plugs that has to be considered is the rate of expansion of 2 different metals when heated but it would seem to me the freeze plug would react first , keeping it tight . ----------------------later |
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | just when you think it can't get any worse , mr murphy finds out you been messin with mrs murphy and kicks you directly in the nuts . wednesday afternoon i decided to pull the heads after the subsiding of some anxiety . i
pulled the left side first and of course cleaning off space on the bench first , laid the head on the bench . looked it over real good along with the gasket . cant see any where a leak happened . so i went over to look at the motor .
looked at the deck , all looked ok . the pistons looked carboned a little so started wiping . something caught my eye that shouldn't be there . so i looked at it for a few seconds , then went over to the head on the bench . hell
no ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, went back to the motor , looked at each piston ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, f**k no ! each piston at between 12:00 and 1:00 had a tiny nick . so whats goin on ? the darned valves are just barely hitting the edge of the valve
relief . so i pulled the right side , same darned thing . everyone of the pistons were at some point , in contact with valves . people i couldn't make this up if i tried -------------------------------later |
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Location: Perth Australia | Oh thats crap Chuck
Theres a number of ways to fix it as I am sure you know, none of them that easy though
It must be the intakes, do you think it bent the valves?
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | no , i dont think the was enough contact to bend em but the feeling was just about the same when i saw the first one . my first thought and what i'll most likely do is dremel an ever so slight depression at
the point of contact but after i have a good talk with the piston supplier . i've talked to gary pavlovich several times over the last few days and we both think that a minimal removal of metal will work without
distorting the balance . the water is really more of a concern now . i'm hoping that a pressure wash for the guts removes most of it . then i'll try some magic with the oil galleries and bearings . i'll need
do the rocker tubes and galleries of the heads also . i do have a solid game plan without taking it down , part by part . WD 40 and about 5 gallons of rotella --------------------------------------later |
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lit up the stroker
