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Forward Look Technical Discussions -> The Exhaust Pipe - Modification & Performance | Message format |
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | No idea what rotella is? You havnt found the cause of the water yet though? | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | not yet but i haven't removed the timing cover yet and haven't been in a big hurry to . sometimes i let anxiety , pessimism and procrastination guide me more than they should ---------------------------later http://www.shell.com/rotella.html | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | below is the same email i sent in reply to gary p .-----------------------------------------------------------later i just talked to auto tech . i didn't really get into how or why it happened but it was explained to me that it would be good to dremel off the needed clearance to probably a plus .030 and that they really didn't all need to be right on equal weight removal . pistons have a weight tolerance of differences of up to 5 grams and the tech said if he were in the same position , dremel is what he'd do . now the trick will be to do each piston , one at a time taping over cylinders and uncovering cylinders as i go ( a ton of precaution) . i won't be doing anything today but tomorrow i'll remove the pan and timing cover . what really disturbs me about removing parts from the motor is messing up the motor paint but i guess things could be worse . the tech i talked to was a really nice person and really eager to explain things in a proper manor . | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | I think I would be getting a lot of cans of brake clean or electrical contact cleaner if I was going to start clearencing like that. Try to get the cylinder as dry as possible, I can just see the little bits of swarf getting stuck in the rings ect To be honest Chuck, if your dropping the pan, I would pull the pistons and do them out, no risk of crap hiding somewhere then Make it easier to make it look like that was how it was supposed to be instead of rough dremmel cutouts As its on the edge of the piston, wouldnt it be better if you tried to keep the edge of the piston flat and not making sort of a combustion ramp down to the top ring? Just thinking that a 30 thou skim off the tops of the pistons would be better, or a shim plate (if there is such a thing for a poly) I know both of those solutions will lower your compression ratio a little bit, but I am wondering how high it is now, considering the valves are that close to the piston? | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | ttotired - 2014-08-28 4:06 AM If you're asking, it's diesel oil. Used to be good stuff for non-roller cam engines with lots of zddp, but the current CJ rated doesn't apparently have much or any.No idea what rotella is? | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | Ok cheers Lots of detergent in diesel oil, I use it if an engine is gunked up to help soften up the sludge, can be bad though, as it can move rubbish into the bearings | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | ttotired - 2014-08-28 7:10 PM Worse is it might come off in glops & clog up your oil pump inlet.Ok cheers Lots of detergent in diesel oil, I use it if an engine is gunked up to help soften up the sludge, can be bad though, as it can move rubbish into the bearings | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | Yep Regular oil changes required if you do it to look for lumpy bits, but for what Chuck would be doing, a couple of goes with it would be fine Its not carbon, its water residue he is trying to get rid of | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | aint no real secret of how to keep the dremel particals out of the motor . do one cylinder at a time with everything covered/taped in place . after each cylinder , vacuum remove all coverings on that bank , move to next cylinder , mask it up again . yes , it will be time consuming but it'll stay clean inside . here's how i'm going to clean the inside of the block . i'm going to pretty much power wash it with a siphon feed blow gun and wd 40 . the WD and air pressure should rid the interior of water . i have 2 gallon of WD . next will be the oil pick up tube and pump , easy enough , followed by timing cover , heads . next will be to reinstall all removed parts . except for oil pan gasket . fill motor with 50/50 mix of WD and rotella or even junk new oil . spin the oil pump for a few minutes , turning the crank @ 90* or so after each spin . the oil/WD mix should have enough water eliminating power to flush all bearings and oil galleries with out harming any bearings . next drain oil . next fill with rotella and do all the spinning again , drain again . pull the pan and have a look . if it looks good , replace the pan gasket and fill again with good or rotella oil . it's another long process but i have faith it'll work . if you'd of seen how well just a few sprays of WD on rocker assembly cleaned it , i think you'd agree with this process . i may have left out a step or two but you can get the gist of it . now the rotella thing . i've searched and researched rotella before i put it in my motor . the new rotella is in fact not the old but it is as good as if not better . below is the comparison number of both -------------------------------------------------later 15W40 “NEW” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM = 72,022 psi zinc = 1454 ppm phos = 1062 ppm ZDDP = 1200 ppm 15W40 “OLD” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4,CG-4,CF-4,CF,SL, SJ, SH = 71,214 psi zinc = 1171 ppm phos = 1186 ppm ZDDP = 1100 ppm | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | removed the timing cover / water pump and oil pan . looking up inside the motor it don't look too awful bad for water . the timing cover / water pump was 100% sealed on both sides of the gasket . one thing i didn't mention the other day was wear on the fuel pump tine . after pulling the T cover , the eccentric looked to be pretty dry , why , don't know . the slinger is in place and the oil was a touch over full . where did the water come from . as of now i don't know any more than before i tore it down . only sure thing i can do is put it back together and put water pressure to it with the pan off and look for a leak this build was supposed to be fun and even a monkey can install a top end of a motor but this is makin me feel dumber than a box of rocks , never seen anything like it -----------------------------later | ||
Rebels-59 |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Hey Chuck, Read through most this thread and see you inspected the Head Gaskets for imperfections and seating correctly, But didnt notice mention of the Intake gaskets being inspected, I presume as it is a New Build that the gaskets came off fairly clean, So did you check the gasket against the Head and Intake separately , Unsure what Intake you are running and wondered if the Gaskets align properly around the coolant holes, As i had a similar problem on a GM 400 where the gasket was wrong, and the coolant was leaking into the Valley via the intake .. Just a thought i wanted to suggest.. Hopefully it is something simple like this which is at fault for you.. Clive | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | yep new build , the intake is a weiand . the intake gaskets are offenhauser soft packs # 5433 , not the oem steel type . i can see the compression impression of the intake to head . yes i checked gaskets against the heads , and the heads and block are both P318 . i have also checked everything for straight and are dead straight . i truly appreciate your help . i'm guessing the only real time thing to do is reassemble every thing and put water pressure to the cooling system minus the radiator . it's easy enough to do but the cost of time and gaskets is eatin me up , not to mention the cost of oil .-----------------------------------------later Edited by 60 dart 2014-08-30 4:42 PM | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | And not to mention the "Pi** me off" factor... | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i've put every spare dime i had into this exasperating experience . pissed off wouldn't come close . -------------------------------------------------------------later | ||
fenix |
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Expert Posts: 2119 Location: atlanta | Well it's a given Ya know more about these Poly's than most, I have heard the heads are prone to cracking in the combustion chamber between the valves, have You run the heads and block before? I mean you personally? I'm sure You've checked the pipe plugs. Any chance the machinist may have done something while boring? Can You preassurize the motor without running it? it may be a heat induced crack. Can You pressure check the heads before tearing down the motor? Any chance it could be the timing chain cover that houses the WP? I'm sure Ya checked everything three ways from Sunday when it came back from machining, but if it was fine before, why leak now? just saying, only You and the machine shop have done any work on it. And finally a very long shot, could you block of the head to block water passages and see if it leaks or not, if it does, must be anything but the heads, ar the heads ported or had any work done other than regular valve work? Hey You can trow any and all this out, just trying to maybe come up with something that hasn't been thought of. | ||
fenix |
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Expert Posts: 2119 Location: atlanta | Well it's a given Ya know more about these Poly's than most, I have heard the heads are prone to cracking in the combustion chamber between the valves, have You run the heads and block before? I mean you personally? I'm sure You've checked the pipe plugs. Any chance the machinist may have done something while boring? Can You preassurize the motor without running it? it may be a heat induced crack. Can You pressure check the heads before tearing down the motor? Any chance it could be the timing chain cover that houses the WP? I'm sure Ya checked everything three ways from Sunday when it came back from machining, but if it was fine before, why leak now? just saying, only You and the machine shop have done any work on it. And finally a very long shot, could you block of the head to block water passages and see if it leaks or not, if it does, must be anything but the heads, ar the heads ported or had any work done other than regular valve work? Hey You can trow any and all this out, just trying to maybe come up with something that hasn't been thought of. | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i really don't mind anyone's effort to help . the heads came from a running driving daily driver (bertha) of which i know the history of . machine head work and complete rebuild done by napa machining , 800$ . everything that attaches to the block that carries water , i've checked , rechecked . all mating surfaces are extremely straight , 10 way check . i have never heard from anyone that the 318 poly heads a prone to cracking . hell , back in 68 when i was a kid and had my first 318 poly , i was always doing something with it and being a kid i didn't have the money for new gaskets , like head gaskets , carb gaskets , exhaust gaskets , so i'd use them over again and again . never ever had one problem with sealing . in 71 that same 318 poly even went into a 60 dart that we raced at the old clinton , pa. track . i always hear how the 318 poly was and is bullet proof and i personally say they can be beat to death and still run like a champ . -------------------------------------------later | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | since this thread has the bulk of my info , here's where the motor stands as of now . about 2 weeks ago with the motor back together , i went to start it for the third time . turning over was real hard . so the first thing i checked was the 2yr. old battery . it was down 80 amps of cranking , replaced , full charge . turned over still slow and hard . so i removed the rad. and support so's i could get to the crank bolt to crank by hand using a torque wrench to ft. lb. got a reading , 128 ft. lbs. . removed the plugs , still 128 ft. lbs . remover the valve covers , removed all push rods , still 128 ft. lbs. to turn it by hand . so at this point i haven't had balls to remove the pan and check the bearings and i've just about given up on this motor for now . i lookin into buying a used 318 LA to get it mobile and do some driving before i go to the forever garage pit . later maybe a yr or so , when ever money permits , i plan to use the spare block i have thats already bored and only break in time to build another stroker my way . that way i'll know 100% if anything goes wrong , it's on me and no one else . 8 yrs ago the doc only gave me a 50/50 chance by stats , that i'd live 8 more yrs. i'm in the 7'th of that 8 . i just need to be mobile . i still have to do a few more things on top of an engine swap to do , like parking brake set up but i think i have most everything for that . the thing is finding a good la motor for the right price , might have one !------------------------------------later Edited by 60 dart 2015-03-14 12:57 AM | ||
jimntempe |
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Expert Posts: 2312 Location: Arizona | Thanks for updating this. I remember reading it with interest back last year and lost track of it. Sounds like a real pisser... | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1739 Location: Alaska | Chuck, what type of rear main seal are you using, rope or neoprene? From personal experience, if a rope seal is too tight, it can cause a lot of drag. | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | i told the builder a while back i'd take a torch to it , i was so pissed . the rear main seal is not the rope . the builder wouldn't use the rope . i can still use all the internals , i think , to build the next one myself . it's just the idea that this was to be a simple , time tested build , not a heart attack ---------------------------------------------later Edited by 60 dart 2015-03-15 3:01 PM | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | well , i just bought a rebuilt 69 , 383 , bored 30 over , 10:1 pistons , rebuilt 516 heads with 1.74 exhaust valves , hardened seats , purple cam but didn't ask how big . i bought it off a guy that had bought the car for a ton of money . a 70 dodge challenger , rotisserie restoration last year . it has a total of @ 1400 miles on the motor . the reason he pulled the 383 was to put a new 440 6 pack in . it'll come with the rebuild paperwork . the 318 i talked about above was appealing but for a couple hundred more , i'm hoping i got the better of the two . i have a good bit of 383 parts including a 4 speed bell . i think with everything i have it'll be an almost drop in except for clutch z bar to bell but that can be over come . it will come as a long block with everything except dist. cap , plug wires , carb and starter . i even have a correct exhaust manifold to keep the generator . hell , i'm almost giddy ,,,, almost ! ------------------------------------------later | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | So you have given up on the stroker Chuck, cant say I blame you, but its a shame | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | for a while yes but as of now it's still in my future . for now the 383 is kind of a quick fix to get mobile . if it's as good as stated to me , i'll be more than satisfied . the real killer is shipping , that's almost as much as the motor ----------------------------------------later | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8443 Location: Perth Australia | Dont talk to me about shipping You should try it from my side Not worth just tearing it (the stroker) down and seeing why its gotten so tight? | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | perth , i knew when i mentioned shipping cost , it would hit a sore spot with ya . i'll have a look at the stroker innerds but not just now------------------------------------later | ||
MOPAR-TO-YA |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Chuck, I think it would be cool to say you have a sroked 318, but that 383 with the way it is equipped , will really get out there and SCAT ! .................MO | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | if it has what the seller says it has , 300 plus horsey's . it oughta go pretty good . now to get all the small parts together and wait for it to get here ------------------------------later | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | Sorry to read it didn't go to plan with the stroker Chuck. Fingers crossed the next part goes smoothly. | ||
MOPAR-TO-YA |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | 60 dart - 2015-03-19 3:11 AM With your combo, I'm thinking more like 350 horse. A 650 CFM carb would work well. Use a good flowing set of exhaust manifolds........................................MOif it has what the seller says it has , 300 plus horsey's . it oughta go pretty good . now to get all the small parts together and wait for it to get here ------------------------------later | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | it'll be a 750 holley and factory ex-manifolds . by the looks of my frame motor mounts , headers aint gonna get it . the distributor will be a 64 factory single points one with any upgrade HP vacuum advance . from what i've read lately most of the 4 bbl 383's came with only a single point set up . the motor when it comes will have a new/near new electronic dist . it's supposed to ship tomorrow but that we'll have to see . the cam thats in it now isn't real hot . its like 268/284 @ 454 lift purple cam from jegs . as long as it'll smoke them tires , i'll be satisfied ----------------------------------------later here's a link to the sale . it does look pretty clean . i posted the link last night , guess it wondered off . http://www.ebay.com/itm/383-B-Block-Chrysler-Dodge-Mopar-Engine-Mot... Edited by 60 dart 2015-03-20 3:44 AM | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1739 Location: Alaska | Chuck, that is the reproduction of the old 383-440 magnum cam and it is not bad for the street, a little rumble in the idle and made 335 HP in the 383. | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | 58 , it's real close cept the 284 exhaust duration and the 454 lift versus the oem 431----------------------------------------------later | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1739 Location: Alaska | No Chuck, you are are thinking of the HP cam used in the late 50s to mid 60s, it was 268 dur. and .430 lift. I am talking about the cam that was used in the 383 and 440 magnums from 68 to 71 or so. The actual lift specs. for the magnum cam were .450 int. and .465 ex. | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | thanks 58 , i haven't owned a 383 since 75 in a 68 RR , 4 speed . so i'm kinda of on a refresher course --------------------------------------------later | ||
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