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Veteran
Posts: 129
 
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | Hope you can help me out. I finally got Rosie ('58 DeSoto) on the road after a changeover to power steering and a complete drum to disc conversion. I went to get the front end aligned today. The toe-in went fine but they couldn't do the caster because the bushings were shot. Does anyone know the part number and a good source for the caster rod bushings?
Thanks...Bruce |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ........
This is the type I bought for my 59 Dodge ( not fitted as yet )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Replacement-Strut-Rod-Bushing-RP15681-/...
I think ? it's not exactly the same as the OEM ones but are an " improved " version of the OEM ones ??
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong..........
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ............
Bushing and Retainer Package Strut 6 and 8 All models 57 and 58 part number 1879435
Lookey here:-
http://jholst.net/55-58-parts-manual/front-suspension.pdf
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Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | http://www.justsuspension.com/vaf/product/list/?category=%3F&year=5... |
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | So, I took the car in today so that the mechanic can finish up the alignment. While under the car last week he recommended I replace some bushings, hence my request for some direction as to what was needed. I bought the 2 strut bar bushings pictured (1st photo) and he said they weren't the correct kind. He took a photo of the ones I needed (2nd and 3rd photo). Are these the correct bushings that he needs in the 4th photo?
Thanks again
-Bruce
Edited by Twin Fins 2014-06-06 1:18 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2996
Location: Sept. 1958 | The first photo shows the correct ones, they will compress after tightening the nut. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
 
Location: Perth Australia | I dont think your mechanic has had any experiance with these ol girls before
The ones you got are right, I thought mine were wrong as well when I got them
One thing though, and I dont think I am wrong here, but I havnt got to the aligning side yet, but, there is no adjustment there, they are done up until you cant tigten them anymore.
There is a steel sleeve in there or a shoulder (cant remember which)
By the way, I am not having a go at your nechanic, most probably have not had much to do with these cars, these days
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | Adam, the mechanic who is working on the car is one of those young kids that has worked on these cars most of his life so I do trust him. He told me through the head service guy (who may have mixed things up a bit, I don't know) that the bushings pictured in photo 1, even though I insisted through help here, are way too small and are not the correct bushings for the ones he needed in photo's 2 and 3. The bushings in photo 4 are the ones he needed. Now that is not to say that he did use the bushings in photo 1 where he knew they needed to go, but like I said, the head service guy may have relayed something different to me. At any rate I hope that I cleared things up a bit. They are also putting in new upper and lower control arm bushings and new upper and lower ball joints in as well.......funny how just an alignment can be soooooo expensive, but look at it this way....brand new front suspension more or less. Thank you for all of your help and continued help guys.
Bruce |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Before you end up with in correct parts in your front end, best you show your mechanic this and get the right suspention parts in there
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | The ones in the bottom pic are GM (pretty sure there)
I strongly surgest giving them your service manual to referance
I am saying this because I have also worked on a lot of these era cars (I started my apprenticeship in about 1980 and we still had a lot of early stuff running about), but mopar did a lot of things (including the suspention) way different to the gm and ford way of doing things and you have to have a manual to see what they were doing and to do it correctly
This is not a critisism of your mechanic, although an insistance of putting the wrong parts in is
If you dont have a workshop manual for your car, you would be smart to get one, they are cheap (on disc) on ebay
Save you a lot of trouble and money
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | He has my shop manual with him. Like I said, he may have used these and it's the head service guy that has it wrong. When I got those bushings though they seemed pretty small to me, no bigger round than my finger. I thought how can these tiny things squeeze down to fit that big hole?? Maybe they're right but the wrong size:
Rock Auto Part # 5781008B
Service Grade; Bushing
Raybestos Service Grade Chassis parts offer safe and reliable performance delivered with ultimate cost efficiency in mind. Meets fit, form and function of the OE manufacturer.
Inner Diameter .72"
Outer Diameter 1.44"
Length 2.66"
Bruce |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | How are those "correct caster bushings" supposed to fit in there. They have that cutout around the middle, is that supposed to go thru the hole in the cross frame so that half the bushing is on one side and half on the other? And then the whole thing gets mashed down by the big washers? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Exactly
The groove in the middle is a tight fit to the hole it the cross frame and as you tighten them, they squash to form the doughnuts shape
Trust me. I have these bushings in mine and thats how they go
I dont know the rock auto part number though (I assume valiants use a simmilar bush that may be smaller?)
Edited by ttotired 2014-06-20 10:01 PM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | OK,
The ones in PICs 1 and 2 and 3 are genuine OEM Bushes, The ones in PIC 4 are also Correct, as those are the New Heavy Duty Improved version by Moog..
MOOG Part # K7039 More Info {#2084045}
Front; IMPROVED DESIGN
I have fitted those in PIC 4 that i purchased from RockAuto on my 59 Dodge and my Bro Inlaws 60 Fury, The Bushes are a lot bigger than the PIC shows and are indeed more Heavy Duty and allows Zero movement on the strut Bars..
So basically Guys Here and your Mechanic are all correct..
Clive
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | Thanks Clive.
Bruce
UPDATE:
My mechanic called and asked me to come by and check out a few things. I brought my camera and this is one of the Moog bushings installed.
Edited by Twin Fins 2014-06-21 3:40 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | I will stand to be corrected, but that washer looks backwards to me
Thought it should "cup" the rubber?
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7400
Location: northern germany | ttotired - 2014-06-21 8:24 PM
I will stand to be corrected, but that washer looks backwards to me
Thought it should "cup" the rubber?
we had a discussion about that some time ago. you are right. it should cup the rubber regardless what the instruction says. |
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | Seems to me this way the convex shape would apply more pressure where needed hence Moog's installation requirement. I could understand the concave method using the stock bushing but not being privy to the previous discussion on this subject I can only go with Moog's install. Thanks again for all the help!
Bruce |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | sid,
Do you have a link to the topic about that discussion?
Here's my take on things;
The bushing's designed primary purpose is to limit for and aft movement of the strutrod, but also not limit/hinder, or simply 'Bind' the up/down movements of the other end at the LCA.
The strutrod should be able to pendulate at the front subframe bushings to follow the LCA and suspension movements.
If the cups are being mounted 'cupping' the bushings, the strut rod will also act as a up/down limiter on the LCA.
Although perhaps small, this in turn puts an (undesigned?) stress at the front subframe and limits suspension and torsionspring operation.
Especially if poly-urethane bushings are used.
Are the aftermarked Moog bushings thicker then the stock bushings? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7400
Location: northern germany | herman,
here is the old thread. i even made a drawing that shows the cup "travel" during suspension movement  it conforms with the shape of the cup. this is really no rocket science
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25337&...
there is absolutely no reason to install the cupped washers not the way the factory did just because they are a 2 piece design.
if the cups are installed correct (cupping the bushings) they will NOT limit the up and down movement of the strut rods. in fact its allot more likely they will limit up and down movement when installed as shown in the pictures. okay, because of the long leverage the bushings (and the way the cups are installed) can't really limit the up and down movement, the bushings will only be more stressed with the cups reversed.
there is allot of stress for these bushings and with the cups installed reversed the cups are forced into the bushings when braking, there is more crush (more stress for the lca bushings too) and since there is no support the cups are dispersing the bushings, making also any swiveling motion impossible. you can already see the deformation in the picture.
i installed the 2 piece bushings (modified B body bushings) around 1990 in my 1960 fury. now 100 000++ miles later they still look like new. i installed the (OEM) cupped washers the correct (factory) way. and btw the original manufacturer of the 2 piece poly bushings up to this day does not give any advice to install the cups reversed.
Edited by 1960fury 2014-06-23 10:43 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | I just spoke to Kevin, a tech adviser at Moog. I don't know if this is a definitive answer or an opinion changer, or will just add to the controversy, but he advised that the front washer should be cupped and the rear washer should face convex (uncupped) to the rubber. So if this is indeed fact, it looks as though it's a draw??
Bruce |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Thanks sid,
Forgot I had also posted in that topic 5 years ago and used the same reasoning bach then.
Bruce,
Great, another variant to the mix from the same company. Did they tell you also what the reasoning was behind that explanation?
(Or, it could very well be it just really doesn't matter much at all ofcourse.) |
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Ben Lomond CA in the Santa Cruz Mtns | Well, I told him of the controversy so I guess he chose to be democratic about it 
Edited by Twin Fins 2014-06-23 6:55 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7400
Location: northern germany | Twin Fins - 2014-06-23 11:28 AM
I just spoke to Kevin, a tech adviser at Moog. I don't know if this is a definitive answer or an opinion changer, or will just add to the controversy, but he advised that the front washer should be cupped and the rear washer should face convex (uncupped) to the rubber. So if this is indeed fact, it looks as though it's a draw??
Bruce
the front washer is the only washer that counts. |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | You never put your brakes on while backing up?
Edited by jimntempe 2014-06-25 8:05 PM
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New User
Posts: 1
| Its seems many of these bushes fail before the car hit the road . I wonder if the wrong rubber is also used on these from some suppliers . |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7400
Location: northern germany | jimntempe - 2014-06-25 8:03 PM
You never put your brakes on while backing up?
 you mean backing up at 120 mph? no. do you? the rear bushing is not stressed at all, also when braking when backing up "fast" weight is on the rear wheels. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Ok, so the front washer is important that it cups the rubber, the back washer is not so important as it does not have the stress the front one has
Am I following this right so far?
Good
So, even though the rear washer is not as stressed as the front one (that must cup the rubber), why would you not fit the rear one to cup the rubber as well?
I thought the idea of dished washers was to pull (or force) what they cupped into themselves, making them compress tighter, if you put a cupped washer on backwards, does this then want to force the centre of the rubber out and away?
I would think that this would cause premature wearing of the rubber parts (mostly splitting) as the rubber is forced apart, not squashed in
Even though the forces against the back washer would not be as bad as the front, why wouldnt you just put them the same (cupping the rubber)?
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7400
Location: northern germany | absolutely right. as i said before, both washers should be installed cupping the bushings and not reversed. |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | In reading the last couple replies it also occurs to me that with them cupping the rubber it also helps provide additional force keeping the rod centered in the bushing instead of letting it try to slide off to one side and wear a lopsided hole in the center of the bushing. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7400
Location: northern germany | i highly recommend to install the washers the correct factory way, or even better, discard the new washers and reuse the smoothly rounded factory pieces. thats what i did about about 24 years ago. the bushings are still like new. |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | I wouldn't yank it all apart and mess up the alignment but I would R&R the nut so I could put that front one on with the cup the way I think is right. As someone pointed out, the back one does very little work so I wouldn't worry about it. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Pulling it apart and changing the washers (using the same ones or same thickness) should not alter the wheel alignment.
Although, if the crush on the rubbers was not equal and putting the washers on properly equalled the squash, then the rod could move back or forward in respect to where it is sitting with the washers on wrong, therefor the alignment would change, but, I think the alignment will change anyway as the new rubbers are forced outwards, allowing the lower control arm (and wheel) to move rearwards under braking.
I personally would change it and go and get it aligned again, properly.
Steering and brakes are the 2 most important parts of a vehicle to have right.
The nut on the caster rod should be done up until the front washer contacts a shoulder on the caster rod, the nut is not an adjustment point.
The caster (and camber) are adjusted with the cam bolts on the upper control arm.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Just as an asside, I was thinking about the effects of the cupped vs un cupped thing with the doughnut style rubbers.
The orriginal style rubbers are designed to crush down into what basically looks like doughnuts, with the washers exerting a certain amount of force on the outer edges of the rubber providing a certain resistance to the forward and aft movement of the caster rod.
Now if you assemble the washers (even 1) around the other way, would that not reduce the amount of force pressing between the outer edges of the washers, the rubbers and the frame, meaning that the caster rod would be loose compared to if the washers were in the cupped position?
And if you had the front one cupped but the back one un cupped, wouldnt this then have the effect of pulling the lower control arm forward, which you would then have to correct by having the nut loose (not butted down to the shoulder) or by the cam bolts?
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Is the OTHER end of the strut rod these bushings go on slotted so that the lower control arm can be move back and forth as needed to get the right alignment angle? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Nope
They bolt solid to the lower control arm
Caster adjustment is done by the two cam bolts acting on the upper control arm.
The caster rod is there really just to hold the lower arm in place.
Basically, he the factory set the position of the front wheels in the wheel arch by the caster rod and only give caster adjustment with the cam bolts.
Here are a couple of pictures of the caster rod as I removed them from my dodge
Note the step in the shaft behind the rear washer for the washer to rest against and there is a similar step at the end of the thread for the front washer.
You can also see the washer oriantation and that the rubber was a one peice part
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Sounds like both caster and camber are set by the upper cam bolts. Seems like it would be an easy car to align. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Yes, caster and camber are set by the cam bolts on the upper control arms, its all there in the service manual, under front suspention.
I have not done the alignment on mine yet (just a rough, by eye one, yep, looks like its sort of straight), but I got the swivel plates to put the front wheels on the other day, so I am not sure exactly how hard, but I think I read you have to set the caster first, then camber, then see if you upset the caster and reset the lot again if you did, so might be a bit of a pain
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 337
Location: UK | Not to purposely dig up this thread again but I recently bought the same moog strut rod bushings as well as the standard type. These newer ones have been installed correctly above according to the instructions that come with them also stamped on the cups it has the words this side to rubber on the outside of the cup. The rubber is a much harder material than the standard rubber type that squishes up so that could be a reason? 
Edited by littlecarl 2015-03-03 8:07 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2289
Location: Eastern Iowa | 7 words here....Factory Service Manual spec's and torque values.
these manuals are available on line for free, find it, read it and follow it, period. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 337
Location: UK | <p>I completely agree for the factory design bush that the cars were made with to cup the rubber. But there must be a reason for this redesigned heavy duty type that I pictured to have the cups facing out as Bruce and Clive have had fitted. As said before the rubber is a far more sturdy rubber that would not sqash out like the originals would.</p>
Edited by littlecarl 2015-03-03 3:20 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | .....
I too have those same Moog strut rod bushes and just checked them ( not in car ATM ) and yes, the rubber is VERY hard to compress, not as hard as, but not far from Polyurethane rubbers and bushes compress-ability I'd say.
The last time I worked as a mechanic in a shop doing wheel alignment was 1989 and all the make cars I worked on then ( '60's/'70's/'80's cars ) that had strut rod/camber rod type suspension systems AND had that Moog type bush ALL had the cupped washers FACING the bushes, NOT the same way as Moog suggests in having the cupped washers facing AWAY from the bush.
I can't really see any reason for Moog stating the washers to be installed the opposite to what is the apparent norm , perhaps only for assistance in extemes in suspension movement would be my only guesstimate.
Having said all that I'll have a good think when it comes to the time for install but it's highly probable I'll install as per Moogs recommendation, against what my experience has taught me.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 337
Location: UK | Just to be rebellious (against moog) I put those heavy duty bushes in and put the cups facing in to cup the rubber like the factory manual and against the moog instructions. It all tightened up fine. will see how they fare in due course. |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | The way the washer is aimed, seemingly backwards, has been bugging me. I wonder if Van Helsing has hit upon the reason why moog would do it that way. If the suspension is at full travel and the rods are angled down, putting the cup on how we tend to think is "proper" would make the end of the cup press hard on the edge of the rubber puck and maybe create a binding effect on movement. Putting them on "backwards" eliminates the chance of that happening. |
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Caster Rod Bushings
