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Got CAD?
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-15 6:53 PM (#416517)
Subject: Got CAD?


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Is there anyone in here with some CAD knowledge who might be willing to help me with a small project?

I need a 3D drawing of a hemi spark plug insulator for the DeSoto (and anything else it fits). I have measured and measured and measured and think I have
the inside dimensions very close. The exterior dimensions I'm not too sure about but they aren't so critical and can be adjusted.

The final drawing can be sent to places like eMachineshop for 3D printing.

I don't use Windows and Linux CAD programs are way over my head, so I'll need some help with a preliminary drawing to see if the cross section has any
errors.

Here are the (x,y) coordinates in mm:

Inside: (9.0, 0.0) (9.0, 16.0) (5.0, 21.0) (5.0, 21) (4.0, 49.0) (4.0, 120.0) (6.5, 120.0) (6.5,119.5)
(6.0, 119.5) (6.0, 50.0) (8.5, 21.0) (11.0, 18.0) (11.0, 0.5) (11.5, 0.5) (11.5, 0.0)


Outside: (9.0, 16.0) (5.0, 21.0) (5.0, 49.0) (4.0, 49.0) (4.0, 120) (6.5, 120.0) (6.5, 119.5)
(6.0, 119.5) (6.0, 53.0) (11.0, 19.0) (11.0, 0.5) (11.5, 0.5) (11.5, 0.0) (9.0, 0.0)

I'll try to attach a .jpg of what it should look like.

bg



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2013-12-15 7:32 PM (#416521 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: RE: Got CAD?



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Is this for a reproduction project ?

As an FYI - the originals were white glazed porcelain with the Autolite numbers underglazed
in green ink. These have different construction than the later bakelite/plastic replacements.

Which are you looking at doing ?
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-15 9:50 PM (#416543 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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The drawing will be sent to a company for 3D printing. I'm not sure which media to select but it has to be heat resistant and non conductive of course.
My '56 has the tan bakelite ones.



(DeSoto plug insulators.JPG)



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FIN ME
Posted 2013-12-16 9:29 AM (#416596 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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.
I can draw using AutoCAD and I have an older AutoCAD program.

Not sure if you are after a more cutting-edge drawing than my program can produce though? My program is all-manual, and it doesn't create 3D projections automatically. But I can produce "2D", dimensioned, isometric drawings which show items or spaces in "3D perspective". I'm not sure if these can be used with a 3D printer?

I usually draw using an entered distance from a set point as it relates to the geometry of a circle (ie: coordinates within 360 degrees), but xy coordinates can also be used with my AutoCAD program, I'm just not as used to that method of drawing, so it might take me a while.

I can try to help if you want me to, BUT I think that one way for you to get this drawing done in a more expeditious (and precise?) manner would be to take or send your info to a local community college or university where they have courses in 3D drawing programs such as AutoCAD for students enrolled in Interior Design, Mechanical Drawing, Architecture, Technical Drawing, etc.. An instructor could likely recommend a reliable senior student who could whip this drawing up for you practically while you wait. Would be nice if you could offer a small fee or giftoid for their time. It shouldn't cost you much at all. The newer programs are way more user-friendly, and have improved in pretty much every way since I graduated.

I used to create drawings for folks when I was in school to make some extra cash, and most of us students enjoyed working with a "real" customer whenever we had the chance. And with the winter break coming up, the students might have some time on their hands for this sort of thing, unlike myself, unfortunately.

I don't really understand how 3D printing works. Can't you just give them the coordinates, or the real object itself, and the printer does the rest? I have no idea? But 3D printers do sound fantastic, and hopefully they can help us old car folks obtain more replacement parts as time goes by and the technology improves!






Edited by FIN ME 2013-12-16 9:32 AM
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 1:43 PM (#416657 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Thanks for the reply, Rosy. There are some forums where people will make drawings for a fee and I will take a look at them. I just wanted to see the cross section to examine it for errors before going to the next step. I can get some graph paper and hand plot it. 3D printing technology is advancing rapidly and the choices in materials available is expanding also. Hard to find trim parts and scripts will one day be economical to have printed. Thanks for your suggestions. I might also consider the local Mopar club. Your car probably uses these same items. A set on ebay runs $80+ or about $10 each plus shipping.

Years ago I was drawing model airplane bulk heads and printing them out, pasting them to wood and cutting them out. It worked well, but I no longer have the capability do do that. Freecad is available and I tried it but it is buggy software and very hard to learn. That was about 6 months ago. Maybe it has improved. GA Tech is nearby as are other tech schools. Light bulbs are starting to come on

Take care.
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-16 3:06 PM (#416678 - in reply to #416657)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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I can draw you up a 3D model pretty easily in SolidWorks. I'll take a look at your picture and let you know if I have any questions.
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-16 3:12 PM (#416680 - in reply to #416678)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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On first glance, it looks like you are missing the bevel at the bottom of the part. That bevel is nice to strengthen and round off the end. If you want to include that, just give me an outside diameter and thickness - how far up the shaft it goes.

Also, I am missing a lot of inside diameters and some of the info doesn't quite look right. Here is what I have so far:

Edited by Powerflite 2013-12-16 4:42 PM




(Ceramic Insulator.JPG)



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Attachments Ceramic Insulator.JPG (35KB - 223 downloads)
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 4:43 PM (#416695 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Thanks Powerflite. Would you be able to freehand the bevel? I'll check my drawings. Can you post an image of what you're referring to?

edit: ok, the image just showed up...it is beautiful! I see no missing bevel.

The inside dimensions are critical because they hold the metal clip onto the spark plug. If I recall correctly, I was very careful with them so maybe I copied the coordinates incorrectly. Can you show me the cross section?

bg


Edited by 1956DeS 2013-12-16 4:47 PM
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 4:55 PM (#416698 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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See if this helps. The gray area is what holds the clip to the spark plug and the edges are not beveled or radiused.




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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 4:58 PM (#416701 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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I'll work on getting some inside diameter.




(centimeter-30.JPG)



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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 4:59 PM (#416702 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Wrong image...here's what I intended to post.



(Insulator dimensions.JPG)



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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 5:01 PM (#416703 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Ah, here we go...in inches, it seems.


1 inch = 64/64ths
1 inch = 100/100ths
1 inch = 25.4 millimeters
.5 inch = 12.7 millimeters

1 millimeter = .0394 inch
1 millimeter = 1/1000 of a meter. About the thickness of a dime or a credit card.

1 centimeter = .3937 inch or 1/100 of a meter

http://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtcht.htm
================================================
SPARK PLUG INSULATOR
================================================

OVERALL HEIGHT ...... 120 mm or 4 3/4" or 4.75"

===================================

===================================
THE STEM AKA MAIN SHAFT

THICKNESS ........... 2 mm WALL THICKNESS
INSIDE DIAMETER ..... mm (hole diameter) has to accommodate a 7mm spark plug wire.
OUTSIDE DIAMETER..... 12 mm 1.50" 1 1/2"
HEIGHT .............. 57 mm 2.25" 2 1/4"

===================================

===================================
THE TAPER

THICKNESS ...........
INSIDE DIAMETER .....
OUTSIDE DIAMETER.....
at top ..... 12.0 mm or
at bottom .. 15.5 mm or
HEIGHT .............. 38.1 mm or 1.5" Disputed at 30mm

===================================

===================================
THE SHOULDER

THICKNESS ...........
INSIDE DIAMETER .....
at top.............
at bottom .........
OUTSIDE DIAMETER.....
at top ........ 16.0 mm or 5/8 inch
at base ....... 21.5 mm or 27/32 inch

HEIGHT .............. 6 mm or 1/4" or .25"

===================================

===================================
THE BELL

THICKNESS ........... 2 mm
INSIDE DIAMETER ..... 17.5 mm or 11/16 inch
OUTSIDE DIAMETER..... 21.5 mm or 27/32 inch
HEIGHT .............. 17.5 mm or 11/16 inch
Inside, it tapers at the top. This is called the Shoulder
===================================

===================================
THE RETURN AKA BEAD AKA LIP (it's probably a half circle/sphere)

THICKNESS ........... .5 mm or 1/64 inch (not including Bell)
INSIDE DIAMETER .....
OUTSIDE DIAMETER.....
HEIGHT .............. 2 mm or 1/16 inch

===================================



Edited by 1956DeS 2013-12-16 5:05 PM
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ttotired
Posted 2013-12-16 5:51 PM (#416715 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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I dont think you could do this as a working part in 3D printing

I have sort of looked into getting one and it looks like the printing material (Ink) is a plasic cord (like brush cutter cord) that gets melted to make it build up the part, not a good attribute for a hot spark plug

The other concideration would have to be the insulating properties of the material

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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-16 6:29 PM (#416722 - in reply to #416703)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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Thanks for the dimensions that way. That makes it a lot easier. Check out the cross section dimensions I have here to make sure they are what you are expecting. This is before I add any radiusing to soften the sharp edges. Once you approve this, I will post what radii I have used for softening up the edges.

Edit: Something I notice different is that I have used a 2mm wall throughout, but you used a straight hole with varying thickness. I should probably correct that.

Edited by Powerflite 2013-12-16 6:33 PM




(CrossSection Insulator.JPG)



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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 7:26 PM (#416730 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Powerflite, the wall thickness should be at least 2mm and remember the inside dimension is very critical or the part won't do what it was designed to do which is hold the clip onto the end of the spark plug.

Also, at the far left of your drawing, the wall thickness should maintain the 2mm and the 2mm bead is added onto that.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 7:28 PM (#416732 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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ttotired, there are many different materials to print with and new ones coming out all the time. Hopefully, what is needed will be available.
I'll post some links when I get around to it.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 7:35 PM (#416734 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Like this,,,
edit: I tried to add the bead, in orange, but it is much too small.
edit2: Ok, I think I see what was meant about the bevel. There is no bevel on the interior of the part.

Edited by 1956DeS 2013-12-16 8:09 PM




(Insulator dimensions2.JPG)



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Attachments Insulator dimensions2.JPG (53KB - 223 downloads)
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VAN HELSING
Posted 2013-12-16 7:35 PM (#416735 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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....


This stuff just blows me away, I'm a bit of an old fart when it comes to things but this sort of stuff just amazes me !!

To think that someone can punch in stuff to a computer thingo and produce a part from that is really just to futuristic for me to comprehend, this is just amazing !!!

Or am I thinking it to simplistic and there is much more to it than I'm seeing from my eyes.??

..

..
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 7:43 PM (#416739 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Van, it is new technology, but someone took the idea of the ink jet printer, substituted melted plastic for the ink and allowed for printing layer
upon layer and on and on until a part is produced.

The biggest difference is the printer head moves up a tiny bit for each new pass. Instead of printing letters, it prints a diagram. A text file is
really a bunch of computer code, as is a drawing.

But that's just the tip of the iceberg because there are already expensive machines that can print metal parts for, perhaps, jet engines.

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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-16 8:27 PM (#416757 - in reply to #416730)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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So does this interior dimension look right to you? It is 8mm inside all the way to the shoulder. On the outside bead at the far left, it is impossible to do a 2mm circle that extends up only .5mm and doesn't round out the bottom a little. As you have drawn, it will only be 1mm wide. I have made it a little smaller at 1.5mm and extended it up to .7mm.

Edit: I just realized that you were referring to diameter and I was talking about radius. So I just changed the radius to 1mm to make a 2mm bead and raised it .5mm above the outside diameter of the bell. It still rounded out the outside edge a little, but I'm sure the original part does too. I changed the drawing to reflect this. What do you think?

Edited by Powerflite 2013-12-16 8:46 PM




(CrossSection Insulator2.JPG)



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Attachments CrossSection Insulator2.JPG (67KB - 217 downloads)
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 9:04 PM (#416768 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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The bead is there to add strength and it could be a square bead and no one should know or see it since the part is hidden plus this would
make it easier to print.
We're still missing the interior step where the central hole expands from 7mm to something larger--I'll have to find the diameter.
Can this be done?





(Insulator dimensions2.JPG)



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Attachments Insulator dimensions2.JPG (62KB - 222 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-16 9:09 PM (#416769 - in reply to #416768)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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No problem, just take a look at my drawing and tell me what numbers you want changed. If you want the 8mm inside changed to 7mm with a 2.5mm wall - or whatever, just let me know. I can add the interior step as well, just get me the dimensions.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 9:14 PM (#416770 - in reply to #416769)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Powerflite - 2013-12-16 9:09 PM

No problem, just take a look at my drawing and tell me what numbers you want changed. If you want the 8mm inside changed to 7mm with a 2.5mm wall - or whatever, just let me know. I can add the interior step as well, just get me the dimensions.


Good deal. Let's keep the 8mm and expand it to 10mm to form the step. I just found another drawing with these dimensions and I'll post it in a couple of minutes.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 9:16 PM (#416771 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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I took a silicone casting of the inside of this thing and measured it. It is the white item to the right in the picture.



(GEDC1240-EVEN MM.png)



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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-16 9:57 PM (#416782 - in reply to #416771)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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Do you want any of these numbers changed? I shortened the bevel and made it more sharp at the end.



(CrossSection Insulator3.JPG)



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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-16 10:05 PM (#416784 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Awesome! I think that's it. Thank you so much for doing this.
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-17 1:40 PM (#416904 - in reply to #416784)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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OK good. I changed the 68 number to 67 to give it more strength there at that transition. I also added some outside radii to smooth things out. That will prevent it from digging into the spark plug wire, prevent stress cracks, and just makes it look better too. What format do you wan this file in? IGES or SAT are typical. I will email it to you, when you let me know.



(CIDWG.jpg)



(Ceramic Insulator Final.JPG)



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Attachments CIDWG.jpg (61KB - 216 downloads)
Attachments Ceramic Insulator Final.JPG (38KB - 222 downloads)
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-17 2:43 PM (#416920 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Powerflite, that looks fantastic. The site I may use to have it printed doesn't ask for any particular format, it just says to upload a drawing for
a price quote, so it is your choice.

The printing site, one of them, is:
http://i.materialise.com/

http://www.shapeways.com seems to be another.

Up to 17 different materials to choose from including gold, silver, bronze, resin, rubber, etc etc
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-17 3:16 PM (#416926 - in reply to #416920)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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It looks like they can take IGES so I will use that. If you end up needing something different, let me know. Since you will be ordering 8 of the same part, you should probably ask for a discounted price. Check your email and you should have the file.
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ronbo97
Posted 2013-12-17 3:25 PM (#416927 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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I'm really excited about this new frontier in parts reproduction. Has anyone tried to scan a medallion or nameplate, such as the 'Fireflite' nameplate used on 55-59(?) Desotos ? If they can print it in brass, it can readily be chrome plated.

Ron
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-17 3:45 PM (#416935 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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I don't know what it would cost to have a script printed but I believe Goers has some cast reproductions. Good used might be competitive in
price. It seems people are parting out our cars a lot. As prices come down and printing quality improves, this could be the future.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-17 3:54 PM (#416937 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Shapeways promo video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qJuTM0Y7U1k
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-17 5:08 PM (#416958 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Powerflite, can you help me out here...

"We currently only support STL, OBJ, X3D, Collada, VRML97, VRML2 and ZIP file formats."
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-17 7:06 PM (#416982 - in reply to #416958)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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Those are odd formats. I can only do STL and VRML97 so I will email both of those to you.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-17 7:23 PM (#416988 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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I placed an order for one part. It will cost $9.47 plus $6.50 for shipping. I chose the cheapest material which is probably the best suited for
the part which is white ceramic. Shipping date is Jan 6th. Maybe they are busy this time of year. Will post pictures when it gets here.
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57desoto
Posted 2013-12-18 6:50 AM (#417048 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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All I can say is that you guys are absolutely amazing, and the 3D technology holds great promise for those of us looking to "make" previously unobtainable parts. Many, I'm sure, would be interested in the spark plug boot if that turns out well.
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FIN ME
Posted 2013-12-18 8:23 AM (#417058 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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I agree; this 3D printing is great news for us old car folks, and the technology improves so quickly these days so the future looks even brighter. Yay!

I used to make 3D drawings for work using Autodesk VIZ, when having a program of one's own was price prohibitive, but even that is changing these days as more folks are becoming interested in the technology and the programs become less cumbersome to use.



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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-18 1:40 PM (#417096 - in reply to #417058)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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I am eagerly anticipating the final result It will be neat to see how it comes out.
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-18 1:42 PM (#417097 - in reply to #417096)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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I forgot to add that anyone wanting to do some 2D drawing can use Draftsight - a 2D cad program that is freeware. It won't give you the 3d file that you need, but might be a good starting point.

http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight/
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-18 2:13 PM (#417107 - in reply to #417097)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Powerflite - 2013-12-18 1:42 PM

I forgot to add that anyone wanting to do some 2D drawing can use Draftsight - a 2D cad program that is freeware. It won't give you the 3d file that you need, but might be a good starting point.

http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight/


I will download it for linux. If you know of any other multi platform cad programs, pass them along.

As for our project, it was approved for ceramic media but if you check up on it, the minimum wall thickness for ceramic is 3mm. Waiting to see if they recject what was accepted.

http://www.emachineshop.com will take a dwg file and send it to a CNC shop. Minimum charges are a bit high for a small item.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-23 4:27 PM (#418049 - in reply to #417107)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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1956DeS - 2013-12-18 2:13 PM

As for our project, it was approved for ceramic media but if you check up on it, the minimum wall thickness for ceramic is 3mm. Waiting to see if they recject what was accepted.


And so it got rejected. Store credit only, no refund. So I reordered it in a material that would print down to .8 mm at a substantially higher cost of over $25.

It should be here in a couple of weeks and I am anxious to see it.

Edited by 1956DeS 2013-12-23 4:30 PM
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57desoto
Posted 2013-12-24 7:35 AM (#418135 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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1956DeS, you should consider writing a summary article of this experience for the National DeSoto Club's magazine. I'm sure it would be a "hit", and I hope NDC "reproduction parts coordinator" roadkillontheweb is following all this.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-24 10:11 AM (#418153 - in reply to #418135)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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57desoto - 2013-12-24 7:35 AM

1956DeS, you should consider writing a summary article of this experience for the National DeSoto Club's magazine. I'm sure it would be a "hit", and I hope NDC "reproduction parts coordinator" roadkillontheweb is following all this.


I posted here knowing anyone who thirsted for the knowledge was welcome to walk up to the trough and drink. As far as I know, that includes the National DeSoto Club members, AACA members, 300 club members, Imperial club members and even Chebby club members..

There is such a wealth of free and unrestrained information here and I urge all of you good people to make a donation to this board as I will be doing soon.

Edited by 1956DeS 2013-12-24 10:13 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2013-12-25 12:34 AM (#418303 - in reply to #418153)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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You could check and see if the spark plug tube will permit an extra 2 mm diameter. If so, maybe we could make it thicker to work with the ceramic material.
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1956DeS
Posted 2013-12-26 3:13 PM (#418539 - in reply to #418303)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Powerflite - 2013-12-25 12:34 AM

You could check and see if the spark plug tube will permit an extra 2 mm diameter. If so, maybe we could make it thicker to work with the ceramic material.


They would probably fit but it's pushing the limit and you loose stock appearance. Not to mention the cost does not justify the effort at this point.

For comparison, the NOS ceramic ones look like these and the price is very attractive.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Chrysler-331-354-392-hemi-spark-plug-wire...



(00000021.png)



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Attachments 00000021.png (252KB - 224 downloads)
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1956DeS
Posted 2014-01-04 3:50 PM (#420251 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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The 3D printed part arrived and it looks impressive. Picture at some later time.

I am rethinking doing a how to article on the process but if I go to that much effort it will have to be posted where it can be freely accessed and
distributed.
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1956DeS
Posted 2014-01-04 9:53 PM (#420333 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Picture of the part next to a real one.




(GEDC1460-25-b.jpg)



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Attachments GEDC1460-25-b.jpg (10KB - 214 downloads)
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FIN ME
Posted 2014-01-05 11:36 AM (#420408 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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Thanks for the update!

An article would be interesting, and useful too.



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1956DeS
Posted 2018-04-04 5:05 AM (#561121 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?


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Powerflite, I have lost the cad file. Is it still available?
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-04-04 1:05 PM (#561141 - in reply to #416517)
Subject: Re: Got CAD?



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I'll take a look for it when I get home.
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