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Forward Look NON-Technical Discussions -> 1955-1961 Forward Look MoPar General Discussion | Message format |
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | d500neil - 2015-05-05 7:35 PM ...YUP, because only the 354 Windsor block was available for 'mass production', in MY 1957. BTW (too lazy, now/here to look it up,) but the Windsor blocks were ALSO slightly modified (slight over-bore) from their initial A.M.A. 'stock'-specifications...but were built/assembled with the OK-blessings of NASCAR. So, it is absolutely correct to say that the D501 MODELS have unique engine(s) blocks, too, and that they were NOT 1956 "300B" engines. They were/used 1957 Windsor 354 c.i. engine blocks in them; just ANOTHER unique feature of these car MODELS. | ||
300XMAN |
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Regular Posts: 62 | I believe the letter in question originated from Dodge Division, with Carl Kiekhaefer receiving a copy. I do not believe there was an official response from NASCAR on the matter. By the end of April, NASCAR instituted its single four-barrel rule, which stayed in effect through 2012. Buck Baker, who was campaigning a Black Widow Chevy in 1957, told me that he removed the Rochester fuel injection and installed a four-barrel set-up to get legal. It is known that Carl Kiekhaefer had a 390 hp Chrysler 300C and a Dodge D501 by March 1957, but he never fielded a race team after 1956. By the end of April, both the 300Cs and D501s would have been required to run in the NASCAR Grand National Division with a 1x4 barrel set-up, but no one did so. The tax man was not the reason Carl got out of NASCAR, according to Charlie Strang. Main culprit was the siphoning off of Kiekhaefer Corporation engineering talent and cash for the racing program, which compromised the R&D of Mercury Outboards. Charlie had to work on design/engineering updates without Carl finding out, otherwise he would have been fired! | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | I'd seen this letter-to-Editor, before, but lost its reference, until today, when I re-discovered it, in a re-reading of the 9/62 Car Life. By then, the The D501....CAR MODELS....had become long-forgotten. This 'letter' should warm the hearts of all the D501-Deniers, out there, who can not accept that the D501's were a UNIQUE car model, unto themselves, with a complete production run of 102 examples (and with only 92 of those cars' creation having been (able to be) located/documented, to date, by the CHS (and Corp. researcher Darrell Davis). (PICT4594.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT4594.JPG (115KB - 256 downloads) | ||
jimntempe |
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Expert Posts: 2312 Location: Arizona | Found this on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Coronet Fourth generation (1957–1959)[edit] See also 1957 Dodge 1958 Dodge Coronet coupe 1959 Dodge Coronet coupe 1957 saw the debut of the new D-501, which replaced the D-500 from the year before as the top Coronet. The D-501 received Chrysler's proven 354 cid Hemi V8, which were actually left over engines from the 1956 Chrysler 300B production. Camshafts from the 1957 Chrysler 392 cid engines were installed in the 354 V8s for added kick. Topped with a pair of Carter four barrel carbs and sporting a 10.0:1 compression ratio, the new engine put out 340 bhp (250 kW). Other changes included the addition of the Torsion-Aire Ride (torsion bar) front suspension[1] and a heavy duty suspension with heavy duty shock absorbers and a heavy duty leaf sprung rear. A 3.73:1 rear axle was standard with the three-speed manual transmission, but automatic cars received a 3.18:1 rear axle. There were 13 optional rear axles available, ranging from 2.92:1 through 6.17:1. The D-501 received 7.60x15 tires wrapped around 15x8 inch wheels. Brakes were impressive 12-inch (300 mm) diameter drums. Only 101 D-501s were produced. A padded dash was optional.[11] | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Ah, where do we begin...? The D501 had almost NOTHING in common with the 1956 and/or 1957 Chryslers...including the 300B and 300C models (read the above posts...ain't gonna re-hash all that information, here)....EXCEPT that the basic engine block that was used in the 501's was the 1957 (not: 1956) 354 c.i. Chrysler 'Windsor' block, which happened to be still-available for/on Canadian built Custom Royals. There were NO (as in: ....NO)...) automatic transmission D501's built...unless one of the 10 un-accounted-for 501 VIN's had one in them installed in it. Virtually EVERY available trim-item was individually-installed, in various 501's, including rear window defrosters and tinted plastic sun visors, Custom Coronet motifs.....and colors. ...the factory loaded-up almost all of the 501's (which had been pre-scheduled for production, in 1957) in order to make them more physically attractive, easier to sell, and more individually profitable. D501 serial-production began in MAR 1957, and ended in JUN 1957 (after relatively-random factory building of them; no production "runs" of them were made. Edited by d500neil 2015-05-31 9:41 PM | ||
jimntempe |
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Expert Posts: 2312 Location: Arizona | Why not edit the wiki entry? | ||
Chrycoman |
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Expert Posts: 1819 Location: Vancouver, BC | In 1957 the 354 poly engine was used on US-built C75-1 Windsors (2-bbl carb) and C75-2 Saratogas (4-bbl carb) and on Canadian-built C75-2 Windsors (2-bbl carb). It was not available on Canadian-built 1957 Custom Royal models which used the A-block 313 poly. The D-501 was the only hemi 354 in 1957 and was available only on Dodge Coronet models. For 1958 the Canadian-built Dodge Custom Royal and DeSoto Firedome used the 354 poly as well as the Chrysler Windsor. The B block was not used in Canadian production for 1958. The last Canadian-built models with hemi engines were the 1956 Chrysler New Yorker. 1956 DeSoto Firedome and Fireflite and the 1955 Dodge Custom Royal. No 1957 New Yorkers, Firedomes and Fireflites were built in Canada - they were all imported from Detroit. And the Canadian-built 1956 Dodge Custom Royal used the A block 303 poly with a 2-bbl carb. The Canadian-built 1956 Chrysler Windsor used the A block 303 poly with a 4-bbl carb. Edited by Chrycoman 2015-06-01 12:05 AM | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Thanks; for 1957, the Dodge D501's used the 354 c.i. "Windsor" engine blocks in them (because they were, otherwise, still readily available). And, they were the ONLY 354 c.i. Hemi engines that were installed in the 1957 model year, and, in D501's-only. Just another couple examples of the uniqueness of the D501 car MODELS. | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | It is interesting that the 354 poly motor from a '57 Saratoga (with a 4bbl) put out more power & torque than a 354 hemi from a '56 New Yorker. The '56 hemi motor had 9.0 compression, and the poly 9.25, not a big difference. And the exhaust was likely worse on the '57 motor. So why the increase? My guess is the camshaft. They may have used a cam with a better profile - more similar to the 392 profile, but I don't have the specs. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | AND NOW...further to differentiate the 1956 Chrysler 300B engine parameters, and the 1957 Dodge D501 RACE CAR's engine... The 300 B engine has a bore/stroke of of 3.94 x 3.63 = 354.06 c.i. As confirmed in the attached letter from Bill France, to NASCAR, of 3/13/57 (which date coincides with the beginning of the D501's formal production run, of about 99 cars (with at least three additional pre- formal-production cars having been built, with VIN'S assigned to them = 102 theorized total production; 92 cars/VIN's have been located by the CHS, todate)..... .....Dodge discovered "production difficulties" in building the 354 c.i.race engines, and, so, determined that it needed to bore-out the production D501 engines 30-thousanths over-specification, or: 3.97 x 3.63 = 359.47 c.i. SO: not only did the D501 RACE CAR engine utilize a different engine block (354 Windsor) from the 300B engine, but, the Dodge-block was 'BIGGER' than the 300B engine! And: bigger IS "different-from".... ....Don't let ANYONE try to tell you that the D501 race cars (which project happened, eventually, to be abandoned by Dodge, and with most of its scheduled production run having been sold to the general public as being 'civilianized' cars).....were not real, legitimate, unique CAR MODELS. What makes this designation so interesting is that the D501 represents the SMALLEST post WWII unique-model production MoPar. The 1956 D-500-1 car model's actual production numbers are not confirmed, but they were more-or- less Skunk-Worked, at the Engineering Department and/or at the Proving Grounds, as opposed to their having been formally assembled/built on a dedicated assembly line. Edited by d500neil 2015-06-03 1:16 PM (PICT4605.JPG) (PICT4602.JPG) (PICT4604.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT4605.JPG (145KB - 251 downloads) PICT4602.JPG (176KB - 277 downloads) PICT4604.JPG (179KB - 264 downloads) | ||
Lancer Mike |
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Location: The Mile High City | Interesting: so by the wording of the letter, a "high percentage" of the 354 blocks were bored 0.03 over, but we cannot presume that all of them were. Therefore, there may be two varieties of D501 - a low percentage 354 and a high percentage 359 (we will round down). I am guessing the 359s were stamped just like a 354 and might have the coding for a 0.03 over bore. To my eyes, the letter is a notice to NASCAR from Dodge that we blue-printed our 354 for the racing season and don't freak out later if we start winning and you find out about the 0.03 over bore. We wrote you a letter - this is it. Edited by Lancer Mike 2015-06-03 3:56 PM | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | The Dodge letter to NASCAR merely informed the latter that the Dodge D501 engine would comprise 359.47 c.i. (if you do the math), as of 3/13/57. What is not made clear (with Dodge metaphorically covering its Corp-ass, in not being absolutely specific, in their letter to NASCAR, of 3/1/57, above.... is that the D501 CAR MODEL production BEGAN on 3/13/57! Long-time readers of this thread will recall that the 1957 NASCAR season began back on 11/11/56, and that NASCAR race #5 had occurred on 3/3/57, so, Dodge would have been getting a late start in NASCAR participation....IF....Dodge's Corp honchos would have gone forward, but SOLO, with a NASCAR racing program. The Corporate suits had much-earlier decided that if Kiekaefer was going to back-off from NASCAR participation and support, then, the Corp, too, would lose interest in the project, and bail out...even though 100+ (102, including three "early" prototypes which received VIN's).....cars had been pre-approved and budgeted for production. OK, that's all old news. What's new, here, is this article from the 5/55(!) Motor Trend, which discusses in detail how-and-what a SERIOUS corporate effort involves, in preparation for NASCAR Speed Weeks competition. The above is mentioned because, in direct contrast to the 1957 Dodge's NON-interest in participating in NASCAR racing....their 1955-1956 (Kiekaefer supported) racing efforts were VERY productive. And so, with no further ado, here's how DeSoto supported NASCAR (Speedweeks) competition, in 1955.... Edited by d500neil 2015-06-17 3:35 AM | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | OH; dayuum.... Made a PdF file out of the 5-page article! ...Can't post PdF's to our threads; only Jpegs. Tomorrow, will take Jpeg photos from each page of the article, and post those pics to this thread. Stay tuned. ...This article was a major PITA to copy and post here; again, it appears in the 5/55 issue of MT. Edited by d500neil 2015-06-17 12:06 PM (1.JPG) (2.JPG) (3.JPG) (4.JPG) (5.JPG) (6.JPG) (7.JPG) (8.JPG) (9.JPG) (10.JPG) (11a.JPG) (12.JPG) (13a.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 1.JPG (121KB - 254 downloads) 2.JPG (181KB - 266 downloads) 3.JPG (164KB - 252 downloads) 4.JPG (122KB - 259 downloads) 5.JPG (138KB - 275 downloads) 6.JPG (142KB - 248 downloads) 7.JPG (135KB - 260 downloads) 8.JPG (129KB - 275 downloads) 9.JPG (117KB - 263 downloads) 10.JPG (133KB - 242 downloads) 11a.JPG (131KB - 304 downloads) 12.JPG (147KB - 274 downloads) 13a.JPG (175KB - 273 downloads) | ||
Swept57 |
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Expert Posts: 1622 Location: Seville, OH | Lancer Mike - 2015-06-03 3:43 PM Interesting: so by the wording of the letter, a "high percentage" of the 354 blocks were bored 0.03 over, but we cannot presume that all of them were. Therefore, there may be two varieties of D501 - a low percentage 354 and a high percentage 359 (we will round down). I am guessing the 359s were stamped just like a 354 and might have the coding for a 0.03 over bore. To my eyes, the letter is a notice to NASCAR from Dodge that we blue-printed our 354 for the racing season and don't freak out later if we start winning and you find out about the 0.03 over bore. We wrote you a letter - this is it. If a block were over-bored they would be stamped as such. My 501 block does have some stamps that I have yet to decode. However, 0.030 seems like a large cleanup. And if this was a problem for the Windsor blocks in general, then a large percentage of Chrysler Windsors, should have an overbore as well. I'm not buying the letter, some 501 blocks were blueprinted. | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Lancer Mike - 2015-06-03 12:43 PM ...To my eyes, the letter is a notice to NASCAR from Dodge that we blue-printed our 354 for the racing season and don't freak out later if we start winning and you find out about the 0.03 over bore. We wrote you a letter - this is it. Exactly. The premise of the letter is obviously bogus because there certainly aren't that many problem blocks on the production line. But since Dodge does have a "standard manufacturing practice" of allowing a .03" overbore to clean up any problem block castings that MAY occur in production, they are using that practice to justify overboring the 354 motors for racing. That means that they probably did it to all of them, just that they are not exactly stating it that way in the letter. "High percentage" is likely translated to be 100%. They are just pointing out that a .03" overbore is perfectly legal according to the rules because it is a standard manufacturing practice. | ||
57burb |
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Expert Posts: 3966 Location: DFW, TX | Also, there seems to be a lot of discussion about running a "hotter" 392 camshaft in the D-501 354 engines. That did not happen. A camshaft from a raised-block 392 will physically fit in a 354 (and 331) block - and vice versa - but the angles between the cam lobes and the rocker arms are different. The raised heads necessitate a slightly different lobe separation angle to keep valve events consistent relative to crankshaft position. You could put a 392 camshaft in a 354, but it would run very poorly, if at all. Of course, you could also grind a 331/354 cam with a 392 lobe profile, or whatever profile Kiekhaefer suggested. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Doesn't an over-bored engine block have a Maltese Cross stamped into it, over by its engine-stamping-number area? | ||
Swept57 |
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Expert Posts: 1622 Location: Seville, OH | 57burb - 2015-06-21 10:49 PM Also, there seems to be a lot of discussion about running a "hotter" 392 camshaft in the D-501 354 engines. That did not happen. A camshaft from a raised-block 392 will physically fit in a 354 (and 331) block - and vice versa - but the angles between the cam lobes and the rocker arms are different. The raised heads necessitate a slightly different lobe separation angle to keep valve events consistent relative to crankshaft position. You could put a 392 camshaft in a 354, but it would run very poorly, if at all. Of course, you could also grind a 331/354 cam with a 392 lobe profile, or whatever profile Kiekhaefer suggested. ;) I always assumed it was a 392 profile on the 354 stick. | ||
Swept57 |
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Expert Posts: 1622 Location: Seville, OH | d500neil - 2015-06-22 1:17 AM Doesn't an over-bored engine block have a Maltese Cross stamped into it, over by its engine-stamping-number area? Mine has a Maltese Cross after the engine number, but according to the TSB, that has to do with undersized crank bearings. Interesting that the TSB only calls for two production bores, standard and 0.020 over. I'll look at my block again tonight to see what other stamps are on it. (PICT0564.JPG) (PICT0565.JPG) Attachments ---------------- PICT0564.JPG (52KB - 244 downloads) PICT0565.JPG (60KB - 266 downloads) | ||
57burb |
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Expert Posts: 3966 Location: DFW, TX | David, please do document the markings on your block! How many "known" D-501 blocks are in existence? Do you have a D-501 car that you are restoring? Just wondering how you happen to have a block for one. Swept57 - 2015-06-22 8:43 AM I always assumed it was a 392 profile on the 354 stick. That is highly probable. It's just not how it was being presented on a few posts here. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Nobody has done a 'census' on the remaining solo engine blocks (how could 'they'?) , but, there are probably 3-5 engines that are either installed in Clones or other hot rods or just lying around in sheds/garages. IIRC, there are probably about 5-6 real-OEM D501 "cars" (in various states of completeness; not merely engines... including "The Pile of Dodge" (where are you, today?) Lee Smith has an engine, a VIN tag, and a P/T plate for another 501 sedan. Edited by d500neil 2015-06-22 1:12 PM | ||
Swept57 |
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Expert Posts: 1622 Location: Seville, OH | I am aware of 8 real D-501's (5 sedans, 3 conv) remaining in various conditions. I am also aware of 6 additional engines one of which has a replacement block so it cannot be ID'ed other than the owner says it was removed from a convertible. I own the complete D501-1080 engine which was removed from a wrecked convertible sold new in Ohio. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | David, could you kindly PM me with the engines/VINS that you know-of? We should be able to develop more build info on a couple of these 8 cars...even, based upon their engine numbers! | ||
Swept57 |
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Expert Posts: 1622 Location: Seville, OH | d500neil - 2015-06-22 5:26 PM David, could you kindly PM me with the engines/VINS that you know-of? We should be able to develop more build info on a couple of these 8 cars...even, based upon their engine numbers! I have a spreadsheet of all D501 stuff. Its on a computer that is packed for my move back to California. I dont think there is much on my list that you arent aware of. Ill retrieve a copy. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | I've never actually made up a list of the Survivors The Pile of Dodge is a good example; it exists, in NC(?), but dunno its identifications. | ||
horace |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 471 Location: MN | I for one would like a census complete w/ colors | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Here's a couple bedtime stories, courtesy of Corp. reseacher Darrell Davis: Of the total D501 production, the absolute number of D501's built is not (yet) confirmed, but there is a range of recorded consecutive engine numbers (with 10 'missing/unaccounted' VIN's within this range)... ...that STRONGLY suggests that a total of 102 VIN's/cars were built.. 92 IBM cards (or, cars-built) have been recorded by Mr. Davis' research, to date, on/for all of the D501 production. ALL 92 cars found, to date, have the manual transmission in them. The 10(?) presently missing IBM cards/cars probably include two "known/observed" prototype-type cars, but whose VIN's have yet been recorded/documented. Most D501's were built during MAR 1957, with the earliest 'regular production' car having been built in JAN 1957. and the last one (-known) being built around the end of June, 1957. The last-known-built D501 carried engine number 1029. 1956-style 15" spinner wheelcovers were common options on the 501's (either those, or 15" dog-dishes, or 15" non-spinners). All D501's carried the biggest available 15" Imperial wheels, spindles and brakes. Precisely half of the 92 found cars are solid-color cars. The all black "Rod & Custom" D501 sedan was shipped on 4/17/57; not an early-build car, but, there were (remember: 10 cars are unaccounted-for)..12 sedans, 1 hardtop, and two convertibles (with at least one of them still surviving)....built in all-black. Kiekaefer got the lowest engine number, in his HT, but his car was not the first 501 that was built; probably, the 8th car built. The lowest (remember: 'number', not sequentially-built)....missing engine/car is #1002, and the highest missing engine/car is 1054. A couple years ago, there was a story going around that a certain D501 had been built as being a 1-of-none D501 Custom Royal 2-door HT. Research confirmed that its engine HAD been installed in an all-blue Coronet convertible, however (built on 5/13/57). NO....non-Coronet D501's were built. Norm Thatcher only participated in the Flying Mile competition (...only; he was hired, at the last-minute, by Dodge/Chrysler to become their "supervisor over motor tune up and preparation", and supervised a "pit crew of 25-30 men" according to a newspaper account. That 'pit crew' reportedly arrived at Daytona (soon-) AFTER the Speedweeks competitions had already begun. So, combine a large, very quickly semi-organized/planned, racing crew, dominated by (blue-ribbon-) CHRYSLER employees/engineers and with minor (non-direct-corporate) Dodge participation....and you get Chrysler 1st in Class-7 in Flying Mile, and in Class 7 Acceleration. The two D501 HT's were reportedly driven to-and-from Daytona, by their owners; no direct-factory support for them. Dodge got a 4th in Class 7 (against Chrysler 300C) , for both the Flying Mile and for Acceleration (392 c.i. -vs- 354 c.i. engines). Thatcher's car was a real stripper-sedan race car; at least one of the two Daytona hardtops (and, probably both of them) had undercoating applied to them. All three of the Daytona cars' whereabouts is unknown. Kiekaefer's dynomometer results: 1956 D-500-1; 330 HP @ 5610 RPM 300B: 354 HP @ 5400 RPM D501: 369 HP @ 5530 RPM 300C: 385 HP @ 5600 RPM this should 'hold' you'all for a while. Edited by d500neil 2015-06-30 2:07 AM | ||
Swept57 |
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Expert Posts: 1622 Location: Seville, OH | Was the Bob Oseki 1957 Dodge driven by Cotten Owens in 1958 a 501? Edited by Swept57 2015-06-30 8:14 AM (darlington58garage-vi.jpg) (Dodge57-vi.jpg) Attachments ---------------- darlington58garage-vi.jpg (290KB - 274 downloads) Dodge57-vi.jpg (235KB - 247 downloads) | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Yes it was. Hadn't seen these two specific photos, before. This race was the 1958 Darlington 500 ("Southern 500") , run on 9/1/58. This was, also, the only major 1957-1958 race that featured a known D501 (hardtop model, too) in it. Cotton Owens qualified 46th, out of 48 starters, and 'finished' in 43rd, after completing 15 laps (out of 364) and retired from a "piston" problem/failure. He earned $100.00 (today: +/- $1K) for his efforts. Dick Joslin might have campaigned a D501, during the 58 NASCAR season, but his ride's model-identity has not been confirmed in "40 Years of Stock car racing". Joslin was at the 1958 Daytona 500, starting in 29th (out of 49 starters), and ended up in 43rd, retiring on the 6th lap, from a "hose" failure, and earning him no money for his day(s') efforts. Nobody 'finishing' under 40th place (out of 49 starters) earned any money, that day. Edited by d500neil 2015-06-30 7:46 PM | ||
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