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Expert
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Location: central oklahoma! | just heard on the tulsa radio station this afternoon that the belvedere has been claimed by and will be shipped to the family of mr. humbertson, and that they will clean it up "as best they can."
i don't know if the folks at 57heaven have heard about this yet or not, but i post it here to try to get the word out as fast as i can.
without further comment, that is the news as best as i know it! |
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Veteran
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Location: Tulsa,Oklahoma | i still think 57 heaven will end up with it. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I'll let Bob Schmidt, curetor of the 'Heaven', know about that, manana!
Thanks!
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Expert
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Location: Connecticut | OMG ! NO ! http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/2007/buriedcarunearthed/articles.aspx?articleID=070719_1_A1_hANew20470 They're not going to restore it, just 'clean it up' ?????? So the car will lose all it's character and become just another car needing a restoration. And once they've totally screwed everything up, then they'll give it back to Tulsa ! The misguided nephew thinks the car will start ?? The engine was full of water, dope. BTW, take a look at the NJ firm's cheesy MissBelvedere.com website. I thought it was a porn site at first !
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Veteran
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Location: Tulsa,Oklahoma | yeah i think they'll really screw it up. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 387
Location: morehead, kentucky | if that stuff really desolves rust the way they say it will then that poor car will wash down the drain. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | THAT, is a MAJOR-SCARY article.
I had 2 conversations with Bob Schmidt, today, and sent him the article.
He is shocked & awed, at the stupidity/audacity of trying to ship the car, back east, & for some cowboy-company to say that they
want to "de-rust" the car, & try to get it running.
I suggested (big deal) & Bob agreed, that it was now time to go spend some quality face-time, with the "sisters", and
their family!
The GAME, is afoot (or: a car!) !!!!
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Of course, the article alludes to a possible inheritance-dispute, which is something I've written about, previously.
57 Heaven needs to be somewhat circumspect, in its initial contact with the fam-darn-ily, at least before absolute ownership is established, because some folks therein are going to be seeing mega dollar-signs, in their eyes.
Little do they know how MUCH moolah 57 Heaven really has available, to purchase that car!!!
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Expert
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Wasn't there a bidding war between 3 museums in which the offering tag topped $300,000? What ever became of that? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | That WAS the word, on the street, in Tulsa; I know nothing about the status of any actual-contacts made to the family, from other interested parties. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7819
Location: Williams California | Well.. this is some disparaging news. Wonder if the de-rusting company [Ultra-one] offered cash money to the future owner of the car, as well as their services? And, what would follow the de-rusting? Restoration? and if so, who would foot the bill? Or would the car be left as is after the de-rusting process? lots of mysteries remain here. ---John
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Expert
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Location: Bama | Good luck to them and the car. As Neil said, the ownership dispute may not be over yet. Maybe the Nephew is her favorite. As long as the car is actually trying to be worked and saved, that is much better than shuffling it around over and over in its brittle state. Thanks for the link. |
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Location: central oklahoma! | ya know, for the first time EVER on this board, i think i can see a clear majority saying............PLEASE DON'T do whatever you want to with your own car!!!!!
and i can't blame anyone for a double-standard in this case. there has been much discussion (yes, even here locally) about WHAT the purpose of tulsarama was, and why john ehrling was selected (allowed?) to be the announcer, i.e. "is this news or promotion?" next question, does this car really belong to the humbertson family, or has it transcended reality and become "community property"? while i am a MAJOR proponent of property rights, i must admit that ms. belvedere (HAH! she wouldn't have been a "ms." in 1957!) really does belong to society as an historical artifact. it is also something that should be fairly paid compensation for.
i hope that they settle for the above-mentioned $300,000.00, then let the professionals do the "harvey dent" two-face restoration of her, and then preserve it as best we can for as far into the future as we can. but as a non-winning non-owner, my opinion carries absolutely nothing beyond my own self. may they do "the right thing." |
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Location: Connecticut | Not a double standard at all. We just want them to make an informed decision. The statements we've heard from the nephew indicate that he knows nothing about cars, let alone car restoration. So some huckster out to get some free publicity for his business makes grandiose promises that with their 'miracle' process, they'll be able to do wonders to the car and he believes the whole thing. At least if he spoke to a competent restorer and then agreed to pay the 50K or so that it'll take to restore Miss B, I couldn't fault him even though I feel it should be left 'as is'. Let's hope that Bob Schmidt can be our 'white knight' in this situation, and keep this from turning into a boondoggle. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
Location: SE Arizona | It's appears that Miss Belvedere's continued subjection to the "Latest and Greatest" may not be over.
From the "New Process Wet Mix Concrete" that formed the vault
To the vacume sealed bag over the car
To the Gunite used to seal the lid
And now the De-Rusting process, which I suspect will leave gapping holes in what's left of the car (from what I saw of the car at Tulsa rust thru and metal delamination has already started on the car). This new process claims to be paint safe but from what I saw on the shock absorber on the car in the pictureon there site it sure looked like it was to bare metal when it was done.
Hopefully this will not be the fate of the car (I can find enough cars with rust thru 5 minuets from here to want to see another one), but as stated once the leagal owner has been named, it's their car.
Time will tell, hopefully the next 50 years will be better to the car than the last 50 were.
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Expert
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Well Mike, this is what they showed their solution/solvent/whatever doing to a 1963 Comet with plenty of surface rust caked on the top (looks like a New Jersey car from other pictures). Whether it'll leave holes in the Bevy, I don't know, but it'd better be done quick for there to be any hope of the car's sheet metal turning out like this - even in patches:
 (comet5-600.jpg)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139
Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | I think de-rusting the car would be a disaster--there would be nothing left but a memory. Nutralizing the rust, if that could be done, would give miss Belvy extended life. I wonder if that outfit would put a $300,000 guarantee that their process would not further damage her????????.....................MO |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
Location: SE Arizona | "......Well Mike, this is what they showed their solution/solvent/whatever doing to a 1963 Comet with plenty of surface rust caked on the top (looks like a New Jersey car from other pictures). Whether it'll leave holes in the Bevy, I don't know, but it'd better be done quick for there to be any hope of the car's sheet metal turning out like this - even in patches:......."
Problem is, the Tulsa car is WELL beyond surface rust. From what I remember seeing it looked like the steel was starting to delaminate on the front of the hood (the area where the M and the O have fallen off). I suspect the rest of the sheetmetal is close behind. I also note in the pictures you show that all the paint in the cleaned area is gone.
You might also go back and look at Rebels-59 Coronet group of pictures http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15510&... . Take a close look at what's left of the rear leaf spring (it started out life a whole lot thicker than the sheetmetal).
Also check you tube for videos of the trunk being opened......that big piece of "stuff" falling down is actually the inner support structure of the trunk lid that has rusted away.
The cosomoline may have done a pretty decent job of keeping the water from the metal on the outside, but this car was submerged and not well protected from the factory on the inside.
I've run into a LOT of cars over the years with "just a few rust bubbles" under the paint. Even the slightest pressure would open a hole you could put your fist thru.
The discussion.... particularly as it relates to restoring Miss Belvedere has been talked about at length on this board and many others (yes I know this is about cleaning the car up not restoration but it still applies), and there are generally 2 camps. The ones who have not seen the car in person and those that have. I don't believe you can really appreciate the amount of deterioration without actually seeing the car.
The real differences to this point between this car and one that has been driven in snow country is that it has been completely submerged in water and to this point anyway not subjected to a lot of vibrations and shacking to cause big rusty areas to drop off.
As it sits now the car looks like what it is......a 57 Plymouth. If the process works half as well as the company claims.......well I think plymouth58 said it best "..... then that poor car will wash down the drain...."
I know Miss Belvedere's future will revolve around some type of commercial venture designed to generate more revenue....... I'm just holding out hope it will be the least destructive to what's left of the car.
To steal Steve's signature line, this is just MY OPINION., but I haven't hear anyone else who has seen the car voice a different one.
Edited by Mike P 2007-07-20 7:52 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: SE Arizona | You know it's funny, if this was just an old car sitting in a wrecking yard it would just be stripped of what's salvagable (basically the stainless and glass) and literally shoveled into the crusher. I tend to agree with Dave, this is a "historical artifact" that hopefully will still be around in a couple of years.
If not, anyone up for a WAKE instead of a 5 year reunion???? |
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Expert
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Location: Connecticut | Mike P makes a good argument for leaving the car alone. There are some areas of the car that suffered more than others. My concern is if this NJ company starts 'cleaning up' the car, some panels will end up looking like swiss cheese (trunk lid, driver's door), while other areas, such as the fenders, will clean up remarkably well. Then we'll start hearing 'oh, this car is much worse than we thought' and they'll send the car back to MD half done, looking like hell and stripped of all its personality. Not to mention that the exposed bare steel will then start to rerust within hours of being exposed. Then the car will be parted in some money-making 'own a genuine piece of Miss B' scheme. Has this NJ company even seen the car up close ??? Just like in 1957, no one is giving this much thought. Stupid. |
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Expert ,, George Passed away July 28th 2021, He will be Missed
Posts: 1295
Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | I hope to hell that Bob can talk some sense into these folks.... The last thing we need is some rust treatment company using it as their banner on their webpage..... It belongs AS IS in a museum and I cannot think of a better place than 57 Heaven. They are a quality outfit and will preserve the car better than anyone can.
George
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Veteran
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Location: Los Angeles, Ca | On one hand the city of Tulsa made a raffle for this car and did intend to give the car to its new owner, which it is honoring. It seems as though many of us are becomming personally attached to this car because of its unique history and what it has meant to us, despite it not being owned by any of us.
On the other hand it's too bad they can't just give this family a check or another restored car and send them on their way- getting them appeased and out of the picture so this Miss Belvedere with its one of a kind history can be properly cared for at a museum where many of us feels it belongs. I too side with many posts above believing that any additives or chemicals will further ruin what is left of this car.
Another thought- had this car survived perfectly as it was hoped to do- would we all feel the same way ("put it in a museum")? Or, would everyone want to see this car cruising down the road, attending shows, go on tour, etc.? and, had it been only lightly blemished would you rather then see it restored, or still left as is? Just wondering.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Brendon, I'm certain that the family will do-right, by 57 Heaven.
A good opening negotiation ploy would be to ask the family exactly what they would like to receive, for the car, and then, to act
like they're reluctant to accept such an outrageous demand, while they attempt to get the demand, in writing......
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | AND: if the family says :"Make me/us an offer" , 57 Heaven should offer about 50% of their maximum-anticipated purchase price;
say : $150,000.00, and look shocked, when they come-back, with :"We'll take nothing less than THREE hundred thousand dollars,
for it!".
Deal.
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Expert
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Location: Bama | Personally, I would take the car and put it in a mini storage and when they give me about 3 million, sold!!  The folks at Rust Eaters INC will change their tune when they see that car up close as we have. I think must of us care a lot about that car. Isn't that crazy? That is the farthest I have ever driven to see a junk car, for sure!!!
http://www.kotv.com/e-clips/?id=7325 |
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Expert
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Oh, I hear ya, Mike and I'm totally with you. Just giving an example of what they plan on doing and what method they're using.
Yeah, I saw the trunk supports come falling down in the original webcast and the close-ups of small holes on the driver's door from someone here posting stills (I think Tulsa World or somebody even had a pic of a hole starting the upper center of the top of the trunk lid as well - pic taken when it was at East Tulsa Dodge). There's no doubt in my mind that the sheet metal is a hell of a lot thinner now than it was in 1957.
That said, maybe they can, for example, treat the frame and axles/suspension (essentially, the entire undercarriage) to, at least, arrest the rusting process there and, thus, keep the poor Bevy from eventually caving in on herself, you know? Hence, why I was stressing "soon"..... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
Location: SE Arizona | ".....Isn't that crazy? That is the farthest I have ever driven to see a junk car, for sure!!! ....."
I hear you Larry, and we're already talking about doing it again LOL.
Brendon you bring up some interesting questions. I think most of us are currently looking at what the cars state really is. If it had been "perfect" I really suspect we would be watching it at BJs next Feb.
A little rough.....hmmm.....say paint peeling, or the water had only gotten high enough to rust the frame and rockers, I'd probably have gone with restore it (then it would have been at BJs  ).
I do have to admit, it's funny how an old rusty fin car HAS affected so many. Most one of a kind cars the majority of us would have been satisified to see only once say at a car show or something. This one I do want to see again....maybe something to do with the amount of time we anticipated seeing it for the first time (and of course the whole Tulsa experience). |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ...Larry: we didn't KNOW that it was going to be in "interesting" condition, and, as far as "junk" is concerned, that may yet
turn out to have been a VERY valuable junk car, that we saw be unearthed!!! |
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Expert
Posts: 3951
Location: Bama | Neil, right before I left I read on FL that the car was flooded. That is when I left to go see it. I knew for a month that the car was flooded. Had they dug a hole next to the septic tank, they could have seen where the water table was(at that particular moment in time). The prowler will be perfect in 2048, gonna be there Uncle Neil?  |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Mishawaka, IN. | Hey all I was on the band wagon to restore Ms B but now that I have come to my sense's I do also agree 57 Heaven will most likely be the best home for her. I also believe these people in the east have no real clue of what they are getting into, just some free publicity maybe. And really, will we care if the prowler is perfect, it's got so much plastic in it that it should fair way better. It's not placed in a drain tank after all. Reguardless the rust needs to be stopped some how because she is rusting from both sides. Preservation should be first and foremost priority, and to try to save as much of the history that she is. Just some thoughts.
Giddy still Jimmy |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | Bottom line......Nobody gives a good sh*t about history when it comes to money!
Would any of you give 300K for it? I doubt it....I can't/wouldn't give 300K for the one that was restored......It's all about money....THAT'S why they atre tryin' to "Derust" the d@mn thing! The publicity from doing it to "Miss "B"!!
Edited by dukeboy 2007-07-21 1:46 AM
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Expert
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Location: Lemoore CA | If I was the winner of the car this is what I would do. Since I am much more interested in having a nice car than preserving a non driveable piece of history in it's present condition, I would offer it to whoever wanted it, and in return I would ask for a completely restored, or very good original 57 Plymouth 2 door hardtop. If there were several people offering a car, I would choose the best one or the one I liked the best. If the Tulsa society or any other museum wants it they can buy or locate and purchase a proper car for trade. To me that is the only option that really makes sense. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Larry; I'll be 98 in 2048, so I'm already making my plans, for The Prowler Show, but the 'Tree's not taking reservations yet!
They say wait until 2047.
Chaney & James, et al : money talks....
If 57 Heaven didn't think that Ms. B. would be a valuable asset to their museum, they'd WALK....
A new car tends to be a depreciating asset; Show ME da-(MOST)-MONEY, for the car !!!!
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | I just wonder if the "family" is naive enough to think Miss Belvie can survive shipping to the East Coast , willing to put the kind of money into it to try to restore it---as has been said. I don't think it has much sentimental value to them as there are no close relatives to the winner. Don't you think this is maybe a little "mind game" to generate extra $? I think in the end, income money with a minimum expense to the family will decide where she goes...............................MO |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | 5859 - 2007-07-21 1:57 AM
If I was the winner of the car this is what I would do. Since I am much more interested in having a nice car than preserving a non driveable piece of history in it's present condition, I would offer it to whoever wanted it, and in return I would ask for a completely restored, or very good original 57 Plymouth 2 door hardtop. If there were several people offering a car, I would choose the best one or the one I liked the best. If the Tulsa society or any other museum wants it they can buy or locate and purchase a proper car for trade. To me that is the only option that really makes sense. James--If in fact, there has been an offer of $300,000 for Miss B---I think you could buy a couple of pretty nice two door hardtops!  ............MO |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | And Neil wondered what we would talk about after Tulsa was over ....................MO |
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Expert
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Location: Lemoore CA | Yeah, if that offer is sound, I would take it and buy a 59 Dodge! and then maybe a 58 Belvedere 2 door hardtop, which I like better than the 57s given a choice. Oh, and a couple other cars and a nice place to keep them! |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: SE Arizona | ".........Don't you think this is maybe a little "mind game" to generate extra $? I think in the end, income money with a minimum expense to the family will decide where she goes......."
It's and interesting thought hat hadn't occured to me, mostly because of the discussions I've read on ohter boards by people who have not seen the car in person and believe it is restorable. I'm still kind of leaning that way, I would like to see the face of the guy from the stripping company when they do see the car in person.
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Veteran
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Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma | there wont be anything left if they try to rust convert it, by the end of the week at the dodge dealership here in tulsa, when i went to visit her again, there was a large crack in the metal on the tail panel, where it was crumbling away i dont know if someone leaned or pushed against it too hard, or if it happened on its own, but it tells how thin the metal actually is, although it looks solid. prior to that, the only hold on it was a small dime size hole in the door skin. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Just Copied and Pasted this from that site...........
Tulsa Oklahoma's Famous Miss Belvedere Fifty-Year Old time Capsule will shine once again!
Hackettstown New Jersey July 20, 2007 Press Release
Tulsa Oklahoma's 1957 Plymouth Belvedere affectionately Known as Miss Belvedere is on her way to a new chemical preservation treatment to preserve her history for many future generations to come and enjoy her historical history and journey.
Robert Carney of Frederick ,MD present impending custodian of Miss Belvedere who will accept the keys to Miss Belvedere in a official presentation ceremony on September 14th 2007 in Tulsa Oklahoma has today announced his future vision and plans for the once buried famous Time capsule 1957 Plymouth Belvedere today.
Robert Carney announced today that he has entered into an agreement with Ultra One Corporation of Hackettstown ,New Jersey inventors of the Safest Rust Remover product to have Miss Belvedere Chemically de-rusted and preserved with their proprietary Safest Rust Remover process.
Dwight Foster representative for www.safestrustremover.com will receive the 1957 Plymouth sometime shortly after Robert Carney takes possession the 1957 Plymouth at the September 14th 2007 ceremony.
Dwight Foster said he expects it to take about 6 months to complete the de-rusting process of all of the rust off of the 1957 Plymouth Belvedere along with all the other artifacts that were placed in the trunk such as the case of Schlitz beer cans and other items for future display.
Ultra One Corporation's Dwight Foster said they will also use the Ultra One environmentally safe Hi -Performance Ultra One heavy duty and G-5 degreaser products that they invented to clean the world famous Holland and Lincoln tunnel to clean up Miss belvedere prior to her de-rusting procedure that awaits her.
This past March 2007 the Ultra One degreasers products out preformed the best selling Simple Green cleaner and many other well known cleaning products by the largest overall performance score ever recorded recently when conducted by the WD-40 company in a independent lab test studies that were performed by the WD-40 company while researching and evaluating cleaners to market to the consumer market under there own brand name in the near future.
Robert Carney plans to take Miss Belvedere back to Tulsa for a second unveiling in the spring of 2008 for all to see her in her entirely new preserved condition for future generations to enjoy. Robert Carney and Dwight foster feel confident that Miss belvedere's motor will be running and all her lights will be on and shining brightly at her debut.
Future plans for Miss Belvedere beyond her second Tulsa Oklahoma unveiling include touring around the USA for special events for a few months and then probably finding her way to the Barrett-Jackson auction block in Scottsdale in January 2009 and then headed to a great auto museum for the rest of her life..
You can follow Miss belvedere's past,present and future journey at www.missbelvedere.com
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I just emailed Bob Schmidt Cleeve Rive's posting !!!!
Someone else had mentioned to me that the skin of Ms. B was VERY (as in: poke-able-thru it!) thin.
The plot thickens....
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7819
Location: Williams California | WOW. Somebody has been letting the BS fly if they actually think the de-rusting process is going to fully restore the car. ---John |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
Location: SE Arizona | ".....Robert Carney and Dwight foster feel confident that Miss belvedere's motor will be running and all her lights will be on and shining brightly at her debut....." and ".....auction block in Scottsdale in January 2009......"
One born every minuet. LMAO
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Mike, it IS kinda sad, but, almost every family has out-laws who fail to see the big-picture, or who pretend to know everything
on or about a certain subject, when in fact, the subject-itself reveals just how LITTLE they actually do know.
A micro-version of this, is when someone comes up to us, by our cars, and begins saying : " My so-and-so used to have a
car just like this one.......what year is it?"
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Expert
Posts: 3581
Location: Blythewood, SC | Yup, the car is going to fall apart now. Sad but true. Someone is going to make the car into a commercial instead of preserving it. |
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Expert
Posts: 3581
Location: Blythewood, SC | And that missbelvedere.com link no worky. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 585
Location: SE Arizona | ".... Mike, it IS kinda sad...."
Neil it's hard to say. Carney may be seeing is BIG dollar signs on a car he really believes will be in a lot better shape (and running no less) at BJs. He may also be using all this hype as a bargaining chip in the real negotiations (something MOPAR-TO-YA alluded to previously).
The de-rusting outfit is already a winner......cashing in with all the free press it has gotten even if they NEVER touch the car. I really can't believe that any company would care for the backlash from completely dissolving an artifact under the pretense of trying to preserve it however.
We'll all see that happens in the next few months. I personally see Ultra One backing out of the deal after an examination of the car. I can also see car being sold (but the sale not being announced) prior to the official presentation to one of the competing museums.
My real amusement comes from the claim of starting the engine after the derusting process (drivetrains being what I do best). The pitting on all the once moving components must be horrible, cylinder walls, valves that were open (which would be most of them), pushrods, rockers, the crankshaft, oil pump, valve springs, on and on and on.
Edited by Mike P 2007-07-24 7:50 AM
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![](<a href="http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u303/doug58fury/?action=view¤t=IMG_0007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i171.photobucket.c)
Regular
Posts: 82
| Wow!!! How cool, Miss Belvy will be de-rusted after all. Then she'll sit next to her identical twin at 57 Heaven.
Doug |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | What kind of fantasy world does Mr. Carney live in?? I wouldn't let that derust company touch the car without a performance bond equal to top $ amount offered for Miss B. The only way that she will come back to life is if JESUS himself, heals her! Either the family is listening to some bad advice or, like I said earlier, it is all a part of the bargaining process................................MO |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | 57plymouth - 2007-07-24 2:06 AM
And that missbelvedere.com link no worky.
It works with me.. Try this.....
http://www.missbelvedere.com/ |
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word has it.........
