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Electronic Ignition problems
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Burnemup
Posted 2017-06-26 11:45 AM (#542889)
Subject: Electronic Ignition problems



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I have a 55 Dodge, 270 Hemi that I put a LA 318 Mopar electronic dist. and module in. For the last couple of years when the summer temps get here, when I try to run the A/C on those hot days(111 degrees yesterday) it chokes like it is running out of gas and quits running. I let it sit to cool and after about 30 min to 45 min it starts up. I just checked to see if I had a vented gas cap and did not, so I drilled a very small hole in the cap to allow it to vent. However I just had a problem when the rad cap started leaking I then replaced the rad cap. And then on a short trip yesterday with A/C on It did it again. I'm running out of Ideas!

P.S. I recently had the rad boiled out and added a shroud with electric fan.


Any Ideas?


Thanks!
Ernie Baily
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GaryS
Posted 2017-06-26 12:09 PM (#542892 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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Sounds like vapor lock.

Fuel lines may be routed too close to engine heat sources, or if the original design used a heat shield for the fuel pump, it might be missing.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-06-26 12:56 PM (#542895 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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First thing to do is drive it again, but with tools on hand. Then when it does it again, check for spark & fuel to see which is the problem.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-06-26 10:06 PM (#542936 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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That happened to me too, and it was the ballast resistor cutting the power to the coil when hot.
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Burnemup
Posted 2017-06-27 10:03 AM (#542954 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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I'll have to check that! Because It started right away after about 30 min-45 min of cooling down. Do they make different rated ballast resistors? What do you suggest? Right now I have a 115 amp alt and Ignition Module from a 83 Chrysler Cordoba and ballast resistor speced for a 56 Dodge. Maybe thats the problem!
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Old Ray
Posted 2017-06-27 10:39 AM (#542957 - in reply to #542954)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/mopar-electronic-ignition-question-for-the-experts.748852/

:)

 

 

&nb
8852/

:)

 

 

 


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wayfarer
Posted 2017-06-27 10:52 AM (#542959 - in reply to #542957)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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The ballast resistor must be for the same/similar electronic ignition system.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-06-27 1:40 PM (#542977 - in reply to #542959)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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You could always just get rid of the ballast. I sell these kits and I live about 30min from you.

http://www.designed2drive.com
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Burnemup
Posted 2017-06-27 3:24 PM (#542992 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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A friend of mine suggested I move the coil off of the hot engine and relocate it to the firewall to reduce the heat that hits the coil. Its a simple thing to try!
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57chizler
Posted 2017-06-27 5:02 PM (#542999 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition problems



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The problem with the Mopar EI is that the ballast, the ECU and the internal pickup are all sensitive to heat and will recover after cooling down.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-06-27 5:52 PM (#543007 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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any ballast would do. But disconnect the center cable of the distributor and check for sparks when the car wont start. Another think could be the coil, same symptoms, no sparks when hot..
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1960fury
Posted 2017-06-27 6:31 PM (#543010 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition problems



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Burnemup - 2017-06-26 11:45 AM

it chokes like it is running out of gas and quits running.


as you said it doesn't sound electrical. with ballast, ecu, coil problems it usually cuts out as if you turned the ign key to the off position. that said i just had an identical problem with a parts car that hasn't been run in 30+ years, turned out to be a grounded primary wire that only grounded when hot for some reason. next time check for spark.
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1961plymouthfury
Posted 2017-06-28 5:41 PM (#543067 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems


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Check the wiring harness to the electronic ignition to see if it needs to be replaced.

Edited by 1961plymouthfury 2017-06-28 5:43 PM
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FURY
Posted 2017-07-18 5:16 PM (#544355 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition problems



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Ignition problem-replace with a standard distributor and Pertronix ignition fitted. Problem solved.
Rad cap leaking-we had this problem with Michelle's 70 Imperial lately. When the engine was shut off it would be fine for a few minutes and then a large puddle of antifreeze would appear out of the overflow pipe. Tried everything, multiple different radiator caps, recored radiator, multiple different thermostats, head gasket leak test, and in the end it was just that we had the wrong style rad cap suited for a coolant recovery tank. A new $15 radiator cap of the correct style and the problem was solved. Sometimes it's the easy things.
Glenn.
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51coronet
Posted 2017-07-20 12:48 AM (#544444 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems


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It has been stated a few times now, electronics are sensitive to heat and will exhibit the exact behavior you described. Me personally I would move the coil away from the engine, install a pertronix and delete the ballast and install a coil with a suitable resistance built in. Ballast served as a choke point for the spark because the spark plug wires used to be little to no resistance stranded wire which in turn would completely discharge a coil and not allow it ample time to build a charge again. Modern spark plug wires are nothing like they used to be and will have resistance built in.

With that said match your ignition components correctly and reduce the number of points of potential failure when possible. I don't see much reason to keep ballasts and points on these cars unless you are in OEM competitive shows. Modern ignition works wonders as well as an electric fuel pump. Cheap Over the counter replacement parts are available so being stranded isn't likely. Those little $30 electric pumps actually work fine and are easy to hook up.
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ttotired
Posted 2017-07-20 5:33 PM (#544486 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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Not wanting to start a fight, but this is bunkum!

"It has been stated a few times now, electronics are sensitive to heat and will exhibit the exact behavior you described. Me personally I would move the coil away from the engine, install a pertronix and delete the ballast and install a coil with a suitable resistance built in. Ballast served as a choke point for the spark because the spark plug wires used to be little to no resistance stranded wire which in turn would completely discharge a coil and not allow it ample time to build a charge again. Modern spark plug wires are nothing like they used to be and will have resistance built in."

Move the coil, not a bad idea, fit pertronics, personally, not a fan, but might work fine (I have seen many fail, but was 20 years ago) The bunkum bit is coils with built in resistors, and all the rest about what a ballast does and why it does it. I have heard similar versions of that story before. There have been coils made with resistors incorporated in the coil (see picture) but these are rare as rocking horse poo and most would have had another ballast screwed somewhere else if it failed and was replaced

What a ballast ignition is for goes like this - Disregarding electronic ignitions and magneto systems, there are 2 basic points/coil type ignition systems, 1 is a straight 12V system, the other is a ballast system. The 12V system is simply a 12v coil switched by the points to provide a high tension spar to the plug/plugs. The ballast system does exactly the same thing, except instead of the coil being 12v its actually around 8v (some were a bit higher or lower but aftermarket replacements were normally 8v, with sorts coils being slightly lower) and had a resistor fitted to lower the voltage to the coil. This resistor (The ballast resistor) was usually wired into the circuit before the coil.

Why was this system made? It was a fix for poor starting, especially in cold weather. That's all, no other reason.

How does it help? When the car is in normal running mode, the 12v ignition coil will see about 14v with the charging system working and will provide a spark of somewhere around 20,000v.
But when the car is off and has sat all night not running, it will get 12.5v when the key is turned to ignition (assuming a healthy battery) and when it goes to crank, the voltage will drop to 9 or 10v which will show up in the secondary voltage as it will also be lower (approximately 1/3 less 9v compared to 14v) weaker spark = harder starting

The ballast system is a fix for the above problem, put a coil in that produces 20,000v at a lower primary voltage (say an 8v coil) and put a wire in to bypass the ballast resistor on cranking and you have 9 or 10v getting to a coil designed to work on 8v, you get 22,000v at crank instead, so better starting.

Most electronic systems do away with the ballast system because of how they work, they don't need it, they produce a good enough spark

Why the move away from copper plug leads? quite simple, its static or radio/electrical noise. Carbon plug leads were bought out basically to fix the noise problem as well as resistor spark plugs. Its not just the interference in the radio that was a problem, as cars became more electronic, electrical noise became more of a problem.

I used to have a car with wire leads that when I started it, it would mess up the telly reception






(coil_internal_res_Chrysler_Imperial_53_55.jpg)



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Attachments coil_internal_res_Chrysler_Imperial_53_55.jpg (96KB - 205 downloads)
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FURY
Posted 2017-07-20 6:41 PM (#544489 - in reply to #544486)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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Why should you have to move the coil location? Cars work fine with the coil installed where they were designed by the factory to be installed. Mine does as do millions of other cars.
What exactly were the faults you experienced with the Pertronix electronic ignition units 20 years ago..? How many? Which Pertronix unit used? What cars? What engine? What fault?
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-07-20 7:27 PM (#544492 - in reply to #544486)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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Actually, some of what you have said is bunkum too. Older ignition systems required primary circuit ballast to reduce power (voltage and current) to the coil and the switch (points or ignition module). If any canister type of coil is supplied with full 12-14 volt supply without any internal or external ballast, it will overheat and fail. If points are supplied with similar power, they will burn up as well. So the ballast protected both of these components. Many aftermarket canister type of coils have built-in ballast from 1.5 ohms for V8 or 3 ohms for 4 cylinder so that they do not require any additional ballast outside to keep them from overheating. Many stock canister coils from the 80's also had this built in ballast because their ignition modules didn't require the ballast any more, but the coils being used still did. Stock Mopar canister coils only have .5 ohms internal ballast. So they require 1 ohm external ballast in the primary circuit to prevent them from overheating. Try using one without external ballast and you will experience coil shut-down after about 5-10 min of driving. This internal ballast is a built in resistance that is not contained in a separate compartment as you have illustrated. I have never seen something like that! But some amount of internal ballast built into the coil is present on nearly every single canister coil ever built.

Now, on to electronic systems. The early electronic modules (invented by Chrysler!) still required external ballast to protect the electronic switching mechanism because they couldn't handle the full power load. Pertronix I modules were very similar and also require external ballast. However, GM HEI ignition modules used a more efficient switch design, so they don't require any ballast and can handle the full 14 volt supply without issue. The E-core design of coils also don't require any ballast because it is a more efficient coil design and doesn't produce as much heat - thus it doesn't have the overheating problem that the old canister coils have. Mounting a canister style coil away from a hot heat source such as the motor can help it's long term performance since heat is a central issue with them, but probably still won't allow you to remove the external ballast.

The discussion you brought up about resistance changes with temperature to aid in start conditions are a separate feature and not the *primary* function of the ballast. This statement you made is complete bunkum: "Why was this (external ballast) system made? It was a fix for poor starting, especially in cold weather. That's all, no other reason." No. The primary reason for ballast in the primary circuit is to prevent the coil & points from burning up. Using the natural resistance vs. temperature characteristics of the ballast will help with reducing that ballast for start conditions with lower voltage, but it is by no means the entire purpose of using it in the first place.

Edit: I should add that what you, ttotired, said about the ignition wires is spot on.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-07-20 7:52 PM
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-07-22 6:47 PM (#544637 - in reply to #544489)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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FURY - 2017-07-20 5:41 PM

Why should you have to move the coil location? Cars work fine with the coil installed where they were designed by the factory to be installed. Mine does as do millions of other cars.
What exactly were the faults you experienced with the Pertronix electronic ignition units 20 years ago..? How many? Which Pertronix unit used? What cars? What engine? What fault?
Coils supposedly last longer moved from the engine. I've had good experiences with Pertronix on both Mopar & Fords.
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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-07-22 9:49 PM (#544644 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition problems



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Oh my lord what a mish-mash of half truths, bad descriptions, and whisper down the lane rhetoric.

Here's the deal with ballast resistors, both point and electronic ignitions:

As stated at some point, during starting (especially cold) demands on ignition systems are much higher than during normal operation. Why? When you crank and engine you are drawing so heavily on the battery to turn the starter that the available system voltage often dips well below the nominal 12.6V of an open circuit battery. This in turn reduces the voltage available to the coil (AND the amperage as well, the starter is sucking up most of that too) which reduces the secondary winding output dramatically (result - poor spark). This at a time when cranking speeds are low, and resultant cylinder filling and effective compression are reduced. Also, particularly when cold, airflow through the carb/manifold is lazy at best, resulting in reduction of metering signal to the carb (read that as less fuel) and significantly higher amount of fuel coming out of suspension inside the intake manifold (called puddling).

So lets try to agree that when starting you're essentially dealing with lower effective cylinder pressure, a lean mixture and weak spark - not a good environment for cylinder firing.

In order to offset some portion of this marginalized system an engineer came up with the idea of using a coil designed for an 8 volt system with a 12 volt input to achieve a much hotter/fatter spark. Imagine connecting a 6v bulb to a 12v battery - you get a lot more light than on a 6v battery.

But here's the rub - much like that 6v bulb, which we all know will burn very bright, and burn out very soon - so will a coil rated for 8 volts with a 12 volt feed. So what they did was design a system where the coil will only be directly exposed to the 12 volt system when you are cranking the starter. (And in fact probably not even then since as we agree when cranking the system voltage is lower anyway) Once the key is released the coil no longer sees 12v.

How do they do that? Simple - there are multiple contacts on the ignition switch. When in Crank position 12v is fed to the coil. When in the Run position 12v is fed NOT to the coil, but to the BALLAST RESISTOR. From there, a reduced voltage is sent to the coil, typically 8-9 volts.

This is why a simple diagnostic tool for these systems is to crank the car - if it fires and continues to run AS LONG AS YOU HOLD THE KEY TO START (don't do it too long) but dies when the key is released to run, the ballast resistor has most likely failed.

Why no ballast on Ford and GM? Ford used an internal resistor on their coils which is why Ford coils were always different. And GM used a resistance wire in the harness to the same effect as the ballast. That's why hot-rod teens used to blow out coils every week or so on their Camaros after rewiring the car themselves . . .

Chrysler electronic ignition still requires the ballast because it still uses the same coil. Many aftermarket electronic ignitions are capable of generating enough spark on reduced voltage that they do away with the by-pass entirely. GM HEI does the same thing.

You can verify all of what I just explained with a voltmeter, or even a test light, if you think I'm incorrect.

Matching components is VITAL in any upgrade/change, but especially so with electrical/electronic systems.

Gregg
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-07-23 12:26 AM (#544648 - in reply to #544644)
Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition problems



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Before you go accusing people of spreading falsehoods, you should check the validity of what you are spreading. The start bypass system that you describe wasn't used on cars until the 70's with the later electronic ignition system. That wiring system is irrelevant to this discussion as we aren't working on Dusters, Road Runners and Aspens. I have provided an electrical diagram from a '57 Chrysler for you to review. There is no start/crank bypass of the ballast there. It doesn't exist until the 70's.

Also, this statement "Chrysler electronic ignition still requires the ballast because it still uses the same coil." is not incorrect, but is misleading. The Chrysler electronic ignition system requires a ballast for the coil, and the module - both.



(57ChryslerStart.jpg)



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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-07-23 12:03 PM (#544672 - in reply to #544648)
Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition problems



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Powerflite -

My statements are based on two things - what I was taught many moons ago, and what I've seen/experienced in the field. While my teaching was thorough and broad, and my experience has run the gamut from pre-1950 to current high tech, only a fool would claim to know everything. I may be an idiot (ask all of my ex's) but I try very hard not to be a fool, and any day I don't learn something was a day I didn't pay attention.

The wiring diagram you posted clearly indicates that there is no ignition by-pass. I checked the diagrams in my 1960 Desoto manual, and every one there includes the by-pass. However, your diagram is interesting in a couple of other important ways. First, while there is no depiction of the internal component circuits (like the terminal functions of the ignition switch) it is very clear that the ignition switch shown has NO start or crank position. I have to assume based on what I can see that this particular car used another method of engaging the starter - a separate switch, be it a foot switch, or integrated into the transmission selector in some way (I think on my '60 Saratoga you engaged the starter by pushing the neutral button fully in - I'm guessing that the vacuum switch shown on your diagram is there to prevent starter engagement when selecting neutral with the engine running, correct?).

To be honest I made a generalization based on my teaching and experience, and I have not had the pleasure of diagnosing the ignition on a vehicle with the system shown in your diagram. So I will readily admit that my statements clearly do not apply to the example you provided.

However, based on the wiring diagrams I have, and my experience, it would also appear that the ignition by-pass became SOP along with the standardized ACC/OFF/IGN/START ignition switch, which clearly was commonplace LONG before the 1970's. In fact my first car, a 1968 Satellite had it. As did numerous Chrysler products I owned dating back to 1962. And my current 1960 vehicle.

So all that being said, I stand by my original statements, with the noted exception that vehicles with what we now consider unusual or non-standard ignition switch functionality are probably different, and to be honest within that group there may well be no "standardized" system. In 1957 we were still only a handful of years away from 6 volt systems, and experimentation was still the word of the day.

The other interesting thing I noted on your wiring diagram is that the horn relay appears to be provided with both battery power (circuit 16 violet/white) from the starter relay, AND ignition power (circuit 18 dark blue) from the ignition switch, and on the same circuit as the ballast resistor, and therefor the entire ignition system. With no diagram of the internal function of the horn relay I have to wonder why such an arrangement was designed? Clearly, horns (esp of that vintage) are high-draw items - why would you put them on the ignition feed which would compromise the available voltage to the ignition when the horns are activated? Somewhere in the deep dark recesses of my memory I feel like I used to know the answer to that, but I just can't put my finger on it . . .

In any event, thank you for the correction. While my car has the by-pass system, you would have saved me some confusion if it were set up like your example. I learned something today - my day is complete.


Gregg
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1960fury
Posted 2017-07-23 3:07 PM (#544684 - in reply to #542889)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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chrysler switched to ign2 (bypass) in 1960. at least my 60 fury has it my 59 fury does not.

Edited by 1960fury 2017-07-23 3:07 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-07-23 8:34 PM (#544696 - in reply to #544684)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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Yes, I apologize. I didn't realize they implemented it as early as 1960, but it seems they did. It's funny that my '56 Plymouth FSM doesn't include the ballast resistor at all on it. But the car does have it of course. I wonder if they didn't realize they would need it when they first converted to a 12 volt system. The 6 volt system of 1955 doesn't have one because of the lower voltage.

I'm guessing that the vacuum switch shown on your diagram is there to prevent starter engagement when selecting neutral with the engine running, correct?


Yes, that's right.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-07-23 9:03 PM
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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-07-24 11:42 AM (#544742 - in reply to #544696)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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"It's funny that my '56 Plymouth FSM doesn't include the ballast resistor at all on it. But the car does have it of course. I wonder if they didn't realize they would need it when they first converted to a 12 volt system. The 6 volt system of 1955 doesn't have one because of the lower voltage."

You may be right. These cars are from a time when a lot was changing, and the "standards" that became the foundation of automotive design through the mid 70's (and sometimes longer) were just being worked out. I'll be the first to admit I got my 60 because I love the look of the car, and especially the fins and dash, but part of the reason is that by 1960 some of the things familiar to me had arrived, like the B engine, 12v electrics, etc. Still, I enjoy learning about the quirks and oddities that make a vintage car interesting.

Any thoughts on the power feeds to the horn relay? That one is still bugging me . . . .


Gregg
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LostDeere59
Posted 2017-07-24 11:56 AM (#544744 - in reply to #544742)
Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition problems



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"Any thoughts on the power feeds to the horn relay? That one is still bugging me . . . ."

Never mind.

Showed the diagram to a friend at work and he looked at me like the idiot I can be. The horn doesn't work when the key is off, the ign feed to the horn relay is to power up the relay coil and the switch grounds that circuit. I'm so used to domestic cars having the horns live all the time I didn't realize that on my 60 the key has to be on, just like the car in your diagram.

Another lesson learned. Back to fixing someones NAV system . . .

Gregg
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