60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-06 10:40 PM (#571239)
Subject: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Hi all

Any ideas as to why I get a pool of engine oil in the valley cover under the manifold.
This is after I mopped it out and requires cleaning up every few hundred miles.
TIA



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-06 10:41 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-10-07 2:45 AM (#571247 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
A well known fact is that the 4-bolt valve covers needs to be perfectly straight, no "dimples" around the bolts, good quality gaskets for to not leak.

Check this fiirst of all...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 2:57 AM (#571248 - in reply to #571247)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
wizard - 2018-10-07 5:45 PM

A well known fact is that the 4-bolt valve covers needs to be perfectly straight, no "dimples" around the bolts, good quality gaskets for to not leak.

Check this fiirst of all...


Yes, first thing I checked, new expensive gaskets installed too.
Theres is no leak around the covers.
It has been the same since Ive owned the car and that was my first thought but it does not appear to be the case and no change since cleaning up and new gaskets fitted.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-10-07 3:24 AM (#571249 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Clogged ventilation? Check the oil filler cap and the evacuation pipe…


More farefetched, small rust hole in the valley pan
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 3:33 AM (#571250 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Im running a PCV on the right feeding into the manifold and an open breather on the left.

Hope its not a rust hole

Is very inaccessible to even have a good look
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-07 8:28 AM (#571254 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
VC leaks usually not into the valey pan but well known on BB is oil coming thru the intake bolt holes, mostly on the passenger side with a working heat riser. Easy cure. Other possible source is the edges on the valey pan gasket. You need to install it with some sealant.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
christine-lover
Posted 2018-10-07 10:26 AM (#571258 - in reply to #571254)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert

Posts: 2891
2000500100100100252525
Location: Sept. 1958
If worst comes to worst, you can add dye to the oil and check with a detection light.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-07 11:15 AM (#571261 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
I'm with Sid on this one. Take the afternoon and redo the valley pan. If you prepare for that process then once the manifold comes off you'll most likely discover the leak.

(don't forget to follow up on what you discover and how you repair it. For posterity.)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 4:20 PM (#571275 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Thanks guys.
Will try sealing the bolt holes and threads first.
Im really hesitant to disturb the manifold and valley cover unless absolutely necessary.
As we all know, before you know it, one thing always leads to ten more things

If that does not help then I might bite the bullet and remove the manifold and cover.
And then that will probably end up in a rebuild ......DOH!

For what its worth, I do not have a working heat riser.

Anyone know off the top of their heads what the torque spec is for the manifold bolts?

Thanks again
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-07 4:57 PM (#571277 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
50 foot lb.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 5:22 PM (#571281 - in reply to #571277)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
ABloch - 2018-10-08 7:57 AM

50 foot lb.


Thanks
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-07 5:26 PM (#571282 - in reply to #571277)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
ABloch - 2018-10-07 4:57 PM

50 foot lb.


I could be wrong, but from what I remember it is 40 pounds. Follow the FSM sequence and do small steps, not the full torque at once. It is a dry manifold so it is not a big job and if yours still got the factory insulation, discard it and do not replace!

Checked, it is indeed 50 ft/lb, 40 is the recommendation from Mopar Performance for the aluminum manifolds.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-10-07 5:31 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 5:41 PM (#571284 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Thanks for that.
What is the factory insulation you are referring to?

My first thought was to do one bolt at a time, clean and apply sealant without removing the manifold.
Not a good idea maybe???
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-07 5:55 PM (#571287 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
The insulation is the glass-wool stuff in the valley pan under the intake, mostly soaked with oil. The problem with sealing the bolt holes with sealant is, the holes are oily and you would have to clean them first, which requires removal of the intake or an oil change, if you flush them with brake cleaner. You may try sealing them with teflon tape, without cleaning (never tried that, but should work), but not sure how this would affect the torque specs.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-10-07 5:56 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-07 6:09 PM (#571289 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Good idea with the tape.
I have nothing between the manifold and valley pan except fresh air.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-08 3:27 AM (#571309 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Ok, thanks for all the input. I really dont want to disturb too much, so, Ive taken all the bolts out one by one, cleaned and used some teflon tape on them and re-torqued them all.
All seemed like the had never been touched except for the rear most RHS which wasnt tight and for some reason had a spacer nut on it as well (just see it in the top of the pic).
I did check and it is the same length as all the other bolts so no idea what the intent of that was.
Just another discovered bodgy job I guess.
See how it goes now. Thanks for the help again

Just for curiosity, is there a direct replacement alloy manifold that works with the stock Carter?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-08 3:45 AM (#571311 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert

Posts: 3527
2000100050025
Location: Netherlands
Just about any 4-bbl 'square bore' intake will work.
Your Carter carb has smaller ports than the newer Carter/Edelbrock carbs.

It's only when you want to install a new carb on an older intake, when you have use a spacer or just slightly enlarge the bores.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-08 5:17 AM (#571315 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Im thinking, if I have to go as far as removing the CI manifold and valley cover, Ill replace it with something nice.

Sorry, a bit off track, but what about the choke setup on a different manifold?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-08 6:06 PM (#571349 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5567
50005002525
Location: So. California
If you want to run a factory style choke, the only aftermarket intakes that I know of are the Edelbrock Performer, Holley Strip Dominator, and the Edelbrock six pack intakes. The first 2 use a choke from the mid 70's, and the six pack uses one from the late '60's. If you wish to use a different intake, you will need to use an electric choke.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-08 6:34 PM (#571350 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
The MP M1 dual plane manifolds have a oe choke well too. Good manifolds! But you wil have to fabricate a new choke rod. Not difficult but time consuming. I'm a big fan of divorced OE chokes and don't like e-chokes but this would be an easy switch.

Just checked, looks like only the low deck M1 version has the choke well, but I found this from Indy:

Edited by 1960fury 2018-10-08 6:44 PM




(indymfd.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments indymfd.jpg (80KB - 67 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-09 1:59 AM (#571371 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
I went with the Offenhauser. https://www.forcbodiesonly.com/mopar-forum/threads/offenhauser-intak...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-23 5:42 PM (#572242 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Update....
Unfortunately the thread seal tape and re-torquing has made no difference, maybe even slightly worse.
50klm around the local area and there was a small pool of oil in the back of the valley.
It looks wosre than it is, less than a teaspoon of oil...

Looks like Ill have to think about removing the manifold and replacing the valley cover.

I will most likely use an new alloy manifold and retain the stock Carter and choke assembly if thats possible?.

Can someone provide a list of parts I would need to complete the job?
Im trying not to get caught out and discover Im missing parts to complete the job.

Thanks in advance.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-24 2:17 AM (#572259 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
Marc, If you go with the M1 like Sid suggested or the Offenhauser the only thing you will need is a new carb base gasket, valley pan and some RTV. (usually comes in the kit w/ the pan) Bolts, linkage should all be the same. You don't even have to remove the valve covers. Follow the bolt pattern sequence for torquing it down after everything is finger tight. B and RB engines are really easy for manifold swaps. No coolant to deal with!

Andrew
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-24 5:51 AM (#572263 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Sounds good, thanks for that info.

Next Australian dilema....
My choices are very limited

Offenhauser is not available here
Mopar M1 is nearly $1000 here!

There is Holley Street Dominator single plane available here, not sure if this is the best choice for stock motor?

https://www.enginemaster.com.au/intake-manifold-street-dominator-single-plane-alum

The only option I have appears to be the Edelbrock Performer 440 ED2191 or possibly the ED7193 but from what I can see the 7193 does not accommodate the OEM Carter choke?
Hopefully I can find the non EGR version.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Performer-440-Intake-Manifold-BB-Chrysler-413-440-Idle-5500-rpm-Dual-Plane/232671839028

From what I get from the replies above, they are not a direct replacement for the standard choke arrangement? Is that correct?


With the valley pan, there appears two types

Fel-Pro FEMS96000 BB Chrysler 413-440 Intake Manifold Tub/Pan Gasket Set



and

Fel-Pro FE1215 Chrysler BB 413-440 Valley Pan Intake Manifold Gasket Set

 

Which is the correct one for the 413? What are all the additional bits?

Thanks again

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Shep
Posted 2018-10-24 7:56 AM (#572268 - in reply to #572263)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert

Posts: 3116
20001000100
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)
As far as the pan goes, one has the heat riser passage blocked, the other does not. If you see a suitable carb with an electric choke or one that can be converted to electric, that may open your choices. Btw, as mentioned, a single plane manifold generally has poor street manners.

Edited by Shep 2018-10-24 9:10 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-24 11:19 AM (#572279 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
My advice... get the Fel-Pro FEMS96000 BB Chrysler 413-440 Intake Manifold Tub/Pan Gasket Set. Get a few of your favorite brews and just swap out the valley pan. All the alloy manifold is going to do is shave a few pounds off of your gross vehicle weight. You'll be up and running before you crack into the third brew.

Then you will have more time to track down the manifold you really want. That Offenhauser is still available BTW.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-24 2:34 PM (#572296 - in reply to #572279)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
ABloch - 2018-10-24 11:19 AM

My advice... get the Fel-Pro FEMS96000 BB Chrysler 413-440 Intake Manifold Tub/Pan Gasket Set. Get a few of your favorite brews and just swap out the valley pan. All the alloy manifold is going to do is shave a few pounds off of your gross vehicle weight. You'll be up and running before you crack into the third brew.

Then you will have more time to track down the manifold you really want. That Offenhauser is still available BTW.


And considering the fact, that all aftermarket aluminum manifolds are of very POOR quality with really bad core shift. That means, to get an actual performance gain, you will have to port-match the heads/manifold, which is not alot of fun and requires some time consuming grinding, as you will have to be very carefull with the heads on the engine. That said, up in front, you will feel every pound that you remove and the alloy manifolds are considerable lighter.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-24 4:23 PM (#572301 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Getting things to Australia can be a real headache and the cost of shipping is crazy!
I got some costs on shipping a manifold from the US and get between $120 and $200 and thats not even priority!
I had a new centre link sent over, total price was $120, by the time it landed with shipping and taxes, it cost me $400!

So Im pretty much stuck with whatever I can get here I think.

I was thinking that a new alloy manifold would be a nice facelift and (maybe) a bit of a performance improvement.

If I stick with stock it will take more time as I will need to get it blasted and then repaint as its looking pretty crap atm.
Im too OCD to put it back on looking so shabby.

Im still not sure whether the Edelbrock would be a direct replacement with regards to the choke?

I may have the opportunity to obtain an Edelbrock 750 CFM with electric choke at a good price, by our standards anyway, $350, used but never used!

Would this be a good choice?


May open up my options or am I wasting my time?




Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-24 5:45 PM (#572306 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
That carb will work but it is technically too many CFM's. 500-600 is a better match.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-24 5:48 PM (#572307 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Thanks, it did seem a little big for a stock motor.
But is that a problem?
Its just that its cheap at that price and will give me more options.

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-24 9:06 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-25 1:38 AM (#572329 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
Problem? No. Not really. But I would anticipate an increase in fouled plugs and a decrease in your kilometers per liter. I'm sure you can put some smaller jets in it to lean it out a bit but I am not the guy to give advice on that.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-10-25 3:41 AM (#572332 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
The formula is as follows
Cubic inches x max rpm / 3456. 3456 is a constant for 4 cycle engines. It is the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot multiplied by 2 since the crank has to spin 2 full revolutions in a 4 cycle engine to reopen the intake valve. This causes the final number

413 x 4500 / 3456 = 537 cfm

The Edelbrock carbs always seem to be to big.....

I would instead clean up the original carb and buy a repair kit https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chrysler,1960,new+yorker,6.7l+41...

I useually fix 3 - 5 carburator each year and so far every one is very pleased with the result.

I use an ultrasonic cleaner with a special detergent http://www.ultrasoniccleaner.co.uk/tickopur-r33-5-litre.html

Check for local suppliers - a liter would be more than enough (mixing ratio 5-10%)

Be careful with the choke housing - it's not aluminum, so clean it separately.....

You could buy an electrical choke as a spare part for an Edelbrock


Mind the height if you go for another manifold - the original air cleaner is actually on the limit.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-25 4:31 AM (#572333 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Thanks for all that info :-)

So what is the Carter actually rated at in CFM?

I do have an ultrasonic cleaner that I use on motorcycle carbs.
Its only 3 litre capacity but may be big enough to do the majority of the parts, maybe not the body itself though.

Are you saying that I could use an electric Edelbrock electric choke on the Carter?
That would be good if that is possible.

I think I will replace the valley cover and manifold with the Performer 440 ED2191, all the fasteners and studs and leave it at that.
Relatively cheap, simple, no down time to speak of and Im assured by the local supplier that the Carter and stock choke assembly "should" work fine.

Although I have my doubts from some of the posts above?

Theres nothing wrong with the Carter that I know of so maybe do the kit as you suggest and keep the costs down a bit too. :-)

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-10-25 5:29 AM (#572334 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
The Edelbrock is in fact an "El Cheapo" Carter - all the nozzles, valves springs and needles are exchangable.


Edelbrock carbs may have bad casting with internal leaks as a consequence.


I would be surprised if there is a difference in diameter between the Carter choke housing and the Edelbrock
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-10-25 11:44 AM (#572345 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
If you take the number off of the tag or if there is no tag check the front of the carb along the base, left side when facing the engine. Take that number and do a little interweb search. I'm thinking 470-500cfm.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-25 1:01 PM (#572347 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5567
50005002525
Location: So. California
Yes, the Edelbrock electric chokes will interchange with all Carter AFB's from 1958-up. Most people don't limit their motors to 4500 rpm. When they step on it, a 5500 rpm limit for the street is more normal. That would equate to 650 cfm, and real world losses that aren't taken into account bump it up to more like 700cfm or even bigger - especially if you have an RV or other improved cam in the motor. This is only if you want to realize the motor's potential and have a good free-flowing exhaust on it. The 392 hemi carbs were around 400cfm. With 2 of them, that equates to 800 cfm. This is a little big, but not terrible and the improved HP numbers on the dual quad motors show that the increase in cfm helped with power output.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-26 1:12 AM (#572380 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Just doing some number checking and my AFB appears to be a little rarer as its a 3108S with purely mechanical secondary with no weighted air valve.

It also doesnt have any drillings for a potential electric choke, as well as no vacuum port for it.

Info I found here.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/CarterFourBarrelCarburetors.htm




Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-26 1:21 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-10-26 1:22 AM (#572381 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
That's a '61 413 carb and it looks fairly Clean which indicates that it has been repaired.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Kchrysler2.htm

Get the repair kit just to be sure and open it up….
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-26 1:26 AM (#572383 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
It does look in rather good condition....
The more I look the more I find that my car covers a few years!
The Astrodome is 62!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-10-28 11:26 PM (#572544 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Manifold and other bits are here
Regarding the plugs and fittings in the manifold, is Teflon thread seal tape or HT sealant the preferred option?

 

But can someone tell me what these are for please?

 



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-10-29 12:58 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-06 5:46 PM (#573068 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

So after the original manifold was removed and I got over the shock of what I found.... a 60 year old pizza by the look!


Its such a mess that it was impossible to really work out where the oil was coming from so onto the next step of removing the valley cover where I found not just one but two partially stripped threads

Helicoiled and cleaned up in this thread

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=70033&posts=19&start=1

In prep for reassembly, I painted the new manifold, cast aluminium is a nightmare to clean but painted makes for easy work

The original bimetal choke was a horrible mess but the ultrasonic cleaner, a bit of vinegar and some paint and its come up nicely

Whilst waiting for a few bits including all new fasteners and a carby kit I drilled and tapped the carb 1/8 NPT for an additional vacuum port (mine was blanked off) that I can use for either PCV or vacuum gauge for setting idle mixtures.



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-06 5:47 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-06 6:22 PM (#573071 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
Don't expect the old choke to work with the new manifold. The choke well is located so elevated and away from the heat riser passage, the choke will stay on forever. Also noticed the dirty head ports. My guess, too rich, not properly jetted and/or because of the missing heat riser or short trips. The "pizza" is the stuff I told you about, factory insulation.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-06 6:30 PM (#573072 - in reply to #573071)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
1960fury - 2018-11-07 9:22 AM

Don't expect the old choke to work with the new manifold. The choke well is located so elevated and away from the heat riser passage, the choke will stay on forever. Also noticed the dirty head ports. My guess, too rich, not properly jetted and/or because of the missing heat riser or short trips. The "pizza" is the stuff I told you about, factory insulation.


Oh :-(
Just when I thought everything was going great!!!

What can I do about the choke?

What do you mean, missing heat riser?

Im only doing long trips, minimum is 60 km's, the carb is stock but getting a rebuild when I get the parts.
It does look very wet in there.

Yeah, the pizza, I remember you mentioning the mat, I didnt think there was anything under there and the front bib kept it well hidden!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-06 7:09 PM (#573075 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5567
50005002525
Location: So. California
The choke you need to work with that manifold is from a 70's 318 2bbl carb. Don't ask me why they chose that one, but that's what you need. You will need to modify the arm on it to make it work exactly where you want it. You can get a full thermal onlyl, thermal + electric assist, or high-grade version, all made by Standard.

Thermal only: CV162
Thermal + Electrical assist: CV163
high grade Electric assist: CV189

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CV-163-Electric-Chock/322992029490?hash=ite...


Edited by Powerflite 2018-11-06 7:14 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-06 7:44 PM (#573078 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Thanks for that.
So my existing choke wont work properly because the cavity is open sided and wont get hot enough?
And these other chokes will work at the lower temps?
Is that what this is about?

None of those seem to be available in Australia, as usual

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-06 7:54 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 1:18 AM (#573087 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Make a sheet metal cover for the side opening. Check that the butterfly valve in the right exhaust manifold works properly and if not, fix it. Then set the choke to a lean position - I think it'll work….
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 1:38 AM (#573088 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Ha ha
Funny you should mention that, its just what I was finishing off

 Hoping it will work too...

I dont have a butterfly in the exhaust :

 



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-07 1:39 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 2:00 AM (#573091 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Nice, without the butterfly valve it will take a long time before the heat rises in that well - set your choke to the most lean position that still Closes the choke valve and try...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 2:06 AM (#573092 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
For some reason its worked ok up until now.
Generally warms up and was completely off the choke within about 5 minutes so I guess it was working fine?

How do you set the choke to lean?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 2:17 AM (#573094 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
The bimetal spring can be turned clockwise or anticlockwise by loosining the nut slightly.

You can see the scale, the reference dot, "L" and "R" - turn towards "L", retighten slightly and check that the choke valve closes, but with a minimum force
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 2:37 AM (#573097 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Ok, done, thanks
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 4:57 AM (#573098 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Any opinions on this specified torque for the manifold?

Seems very light on at 25 ft/lbs, I thought 40 was about right for alloy or should I just go with the 25 recommended?

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 5:07 AM (#573099 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Go with the recommondations Marc, tighten it down to 25 ft/lbs, make a start up, let it come up to working temperature and retighten again.

Indeed a little low, but as the supplier has recommended 25 ft/lbs, I'd follow it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 6:13 AM (#573100 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Also, now with your carb sitting higher up than Before, you must check the throttle valve lever adjustment. It's the rod that goes downwards towards the transmission. On the lever on the transmission, there should be a rubber bushing - perhaps mushy or disintegrated by the years - get a new rubber bushing and adjust the throttle valve lever according to the fsm….
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-07 9:02 AM (#573105 - in reply to #573092)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
1coolbanana - 2018-11-07 2:06 AM

For some reason its worked ok up until now.
Generally warms up and was completely off the choke within about 5 minutes so I guess it was working fine?

How do you set the choke to lean?


Depending on outside temperature, 5 minutes can be a very long time. The heat riser, or some kind of intake/air warming device, wasn't added to every production carbureted engine without a reason.
Think about the money they could have saved omiting it. Heat risers save fuel and keep the piston rings/cylinder walls and spark plugs happy. They also can prevent carburetor icing, which can happen even in above freezing temperatures.
It is a simple little device that requires very little service (a drop of heat riser lubricant, 20 seconds of "work" a year). An engine rebuild is more work, more expensive and takes longer. So why not using a heat riser valve? I personally don't get it.
Again, check the color of your heads intake ports. That is not from a properly running engine. The intake ports are usually clean and dry.

Okay, just notice your location is Sidney, Australia. So maybe it is not that important down there. Yet, heat risers help, even in 20°C+ weather.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-07 5:08 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 2:53 PM (#573125 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Im a little confused as what the heat riser actually is?
Is it the flap in the exhaust, the channel that directs hot exhaust through the manifold or the whole system?

Im not sure what I should do now with regard to the wet intake ports?
It was such a mess that it was impossible to tell where oil was coming from.

All cleaned up now, new valley cover, new manifold, carb kit, new threads in head etc and will have to see how it goes.

There was excessive blow by coming out the breathers and I thought maybe the rings were worn but it uses no oil.
I though maybe valve guide seals but again, uses no oil and blows no smoke.

Im wondering if some exhaust gas from the manifold heating channel was leaking past the old valley cover and manifold and pressurising the crank case?
If this was the case, it should now be fixed so will be interesting to see what happens.

Im not in a position to take the heads off at the moment so with a bit of luck things will be much better now.
Im confident (quietly) that it will be a big improvement, fingers crossed or is it thumbs rubbed together
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 3:22 PM (#573127 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
The heat riser is the butterfly valve that closes when the bi-metallic spring cools down. The exhausts from the right exhaust manifold is forced up and through the channel in the intake manifold and goes out through the left exhaust manifold. This makes the heat rising in the intake manifold and the bi-metallic spring in the choke well is starting slowely to open the choke valve. As the bi-metallic spring on the butterfly valve gets hotter, the butterfly valve starts to open and the exhaust is going out throgh the right exhaust manifold as well as the left one.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 3:36 PM (#573128 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Ok, thanks.

So do I assume that mine is permanently open then?

At the exit of my header there is a rusty old shaft but nothing attached and its solid.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-07 4:06 PM (#573132 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Not necessarily Marc, it could be freezed in any position. Try to spray some good rust solvent on the shaft. try to wiggle it when the exhaust manifold is hot.

The counterweight and bi-metallic spring would not be to difficult to find, perhaps even locally.


It's a good sign that the shaft is still there, it might mean that you have the valve as well.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-07 4:17 PM (#573133 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
Yes, the bi-metallic springs in the intake AND exhaust manifolds work as a team, part of the same system. Running without the heat riser will make the choke stay on alot longer and also will make the engine run inefficient as fuel/air mixture will condensate on the cold intake runner walls and run into the combustion chamber, leading to fouled plugs and cylinder wall oil washdown (piston ring/cyl. wall wear).
Keep in mind, that most of the engine wear occurs during cold starts/warm up and a heat riser will cut this time significantly. In around 10C° weather my carb is on the fast idle cam maybe 30-40 seconds. With an aluminum intake and a working heat riser the intake reaches operating temperature in a very short time.

I didn't mean the gunk in the valley pan, I meant the residue IN the intake port channels of the heads. These are usually clean and dry.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-08 8:53 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 4:49 PM (#573134 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Could the oily intakes be due to the PCV into the manifold?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-07 4:59 PM (#573135 - in reply to #573134)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
1coolbanana - 2018-11-07 4:49 PM

Could the oily intakes be due to the PCV into the manifold?


Yes, unless it was connected to only one intake runner. I always advice to run the factory draft tube/breather. Feeding an engine hot, oily (mostly) exhaust gas, can't be a good thing.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-07 5:02 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-07 5:35 PM (#573138 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
I might try the two open breathers again...
It may be better now.
They used to make a mess and stunk up the car.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-08 1:43 AM (#573152 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
As Sid writes, it might be the PCV, but then again you didn't had it for very long?
The residue looks to be an older thing, which might indicate too rich nozzles (hows the CO² Reading?) For to really understand if the carb works as it should, one could add a lambda sond with a digital panel discretely mounted (as our Herman did on his 60' RAM NY).


I agree with Sid on the PCV - it can never be any good for an engine to add exhaust and gunk to the fuel mixture. I is good for the ambient and it works better with modern engines with less blow-by.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-08 5:12 AM (#573156 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Ive ordered another open breather.
Will try that.
Hopefully all this work will have paid off.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-08 5:36 AM (#573159 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Just for comparison and since I'm renovating the Carter carburetor, here's how your intake channels should look like, also in the heads.

This is after 58 years - I have not seen any evidence that the carburetor was ever opened. The inside of my carburator gives me some support in that theory.



(IMG_2853-rez.jpg)



(IMG_2863-rez.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_2853-rez.jpg (209KB - 63 downloads)
Attachments IMG_2863-rez.jpg (204KB - 61 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-08 5:53 AM (#573160 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Another big night, all cleaned up, manifold on with all new stainless fasteners, carb pulled apart, ultrasonically cleaned and rebuilt and even better, no parts left over 
Cant believe the carb was so full of rubbish and rust!

There is 3 filters between the tank and the carb since Ive owned it!

Need to clean the excess sealant off the manifolt when it dries propely.


Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-08 6:20 AM (#573161 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
My carburetor looked about the same as yours!
The inlets in the manifold look about the same as mine too.
The manifold isnt oily and wet as the inlets in the heads are.
I will have another look at the old manifold tomorrow.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-08 8:54 AM (#573164 - in reply to #573159)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5987
5000500100100100100252525
Location: northern germany
wizard - 2018-11-08 5:36 AM

Just for comparison and since I'm renovating the Carter carburetor, here's how your intake channels should look like, also in the heads.

This is after 58 years - I have not seen any evidence that the carburetor was ever opened. The inside of my carburator gives me some support in that theory. :laugh:


Very good!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-08 1:02 PM (#573178 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Yes Sid, it's really amazing that they built cars with components that still works perfect after all those years.


Anyway, when I cleaned everything, I noted that the the carburator has been opened, I saw some gasket cement and the gasket was cracked.

It'll be interesting to hear how the new manifold and the cleaned carburetor will work.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-09 1:57 AM (#573208 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Started up first kit, set timing, set idle mixtures, purring nicely except..... :-(

The carby accelerator pump is not working...

Any ideas?

The kit I installed was a little dubious in some regards, two of the smaller gaskets were not correct, had to use the old ones in the secondary nozzles (dont know what they are called, and the piston on the accelerator pump seemed a little small going onto the taper and slightly smaller than the one that came out but I thought the leatherette cup may swell??

Ill pull the top off while in the car and check the pump piston.

Suggestions?

TIA, again!

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-09 2:43 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-09 2:30 AM (#573211 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Aha, if it's an old leather type, you should have soaked it in gasoline for a couple of hours for to let the leather swell up.
That said, perhaps the lether will swell up anyway, now that it's soaed in gasoline.

I presume that you installed the ball valve in the bottom of the accelerator pump well?
Also, the upper back valve under the accelerator pump outlets?

WHat kit did you use?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-11-09 2:41 AM (#573213 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1135
100010025
Location: Pacific Northwest
Looking pretty snazzy!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-09 2:45 AM (#573214 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
I used this generic kit
Its the only one available here that I know of.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Chrysler-DeSoto-Dodge-Plymouth-Carter-AF...

Yes the ball valve went back into the pump housing wall and the brass needle went in under the pump nozzles.

Maybe I should wait and see if it swells?



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-09 3:08 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-09 4:47 AM (#573218 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Mutton dressed up as lamb perhaps

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-09 4:52 AM (#573219 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
It'll swell Marc, just a matter of some time. Your Engine bay looks nice now!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-09 5:08 AM (#573220 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Ill see what its like in the morning.
Should have had enough time to swell by then I would imagine.

Hopefully no more leaks and will run better

Hopefully get a drive tomorrow.
Cheers

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-09 5:09 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-09 9:32 PM (#573256 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Accelerator pump is now working and seems to be pumping as it should.
Just needed to soak for a bit.
Thanks again :-)

Went for a little drive and its quite a significant improvement.
Pulls much harder and very smooth.
I did also replace the complete ignition system at the same time though.

Couple of issues though.
On hard acceleration from low rpm, it hesitates and even back fired through the carb. This was at the recommended timing of 5 degrees (not the standard 10) recommended by the seller of the ignition.
I did then advance the timing to the standard 10 degrees and this stopped the backfire through the carb at hard acceleration but now it pings lightly.

Sounds to me like too much advance?
Any thoughts.

Maybe I should start a new thread for this?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-10 4:14 AM (#573269 - in reply to #573256)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
It sounds like you've got a lean spot in the fuel supply Marc. Edelbrock sells a step-up needle spring kit - you could buy that kit and try with the max hard spring first and see if the hesitation and ping goes away. If so, change to the next weaker spring and check again.


Then check that the timing mark corrosponds to the TDC by removing the #1 sprk plug and feel when the piston is in TDC - check that the timing mark on the harmonic damper is corrosponding to 0º.


I had a NY '61 in that had the harmonic damper disintergrated and the timing mark was off by 20º...….


I set my timing at 2,5º for to get the (for my Engine) correct timing - this Winter I'm going to recheck the TDC and most probably change the timing gears and chain.


It looks like you still have the oem timing chain and there must be some slack after 58 years of service.


Just sent you the Edelbrock manuals via email
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-10 4:35 AM (#573270 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Thanks Sven
I did check TDC when I got the car, I had to as there was no visible mark on the balancer.
Who knows how it was set prior.

Definitely a fuel issue after another drive, big hesitation when putting the foot down and pinging badly at WOT.
Steady cruise and accelerate and it pulls like a train, big improvement.

Surprised the manifold made that much difference!

Will get a kit as you suggest :-)
Cheers

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-10 5:17 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-11 12:22 AM (#573300 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Just want to confirm with you guys that the float height spec I have is 7/32 up and 3/4 down?
Could not find anything specific to this exact carb (3108) but thats whats in my manual for Carter AFB 4 bbl.

Everything I find on the internet specifies 7/16 up and 15/16 down.

I set mine to the manual at 7/32 and 3/4.
Is this correct?

The manual also states the floats are handed but mine do not appear to be?

TIA

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-11 12:24 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-11 3:42 AM (#573303 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
7/32 up and 3/4 down is correct - the floats are not left/right handed
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-11 3:48 AM (#573304 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Excellent, thanks, 1 less thing I could have done wrong :-)

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-11 3:49 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-11 6:26 AM (#573307 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11942
50005000100050010010010010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Marc, once you get the car running properly with the correct carb calibration, I'd be very interested to know the average fuel consumption.

As a bench mark, the 59' Imperials (heavier) had a consumption of average 1,7 liters/10 kilometers when tested new.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Stroller
Posted 2018-11-11 12:18 PM (#573319 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 195
100252525
I might be nuts but from looking at the pictures it seems the oiling issue is related directly to the valley pan. Some thing else I noticed is the cross overs and lack of carbon build up opposed to the very rich intake ports. I simply do not like edelbrock at all. I prefer offy or wieand. Also performance carbs are for that, performance, great on highways. What I have found is something I was told a long time ago, 95% of carb problems are electrical. It seems to me if you have edelbrock performance intake/carb with high performance ignition to match all would go well.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-12 1:33 AM (#573361 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
I studied the advance curve with the timing light and it appears to be very wrong when compared to the original.
For example, the factory mechanical starts at 500 rpm and maxes out at 2300 rpm.
This new electronic ones mechanical does not start until 1800 rpm so totally unsuitable.
I think this may have a lot to do with the hesitation as I only have a small amount of vacuum advance in the lower revs and no mechanical!

Im going to take it to be recurved back to standard or close to it before messing with the carb anymore.
At least once the distributor is correct I only have to worry about the carb which may come good.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-12 11:20 AM (#573376 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5567
50005002525
Location: So. California
Or...you could just swap the weights and springs from your current distributor onto your electronic one. You don't need a re curve machine if you already have what you want and have the weights & springs right in your hand. Just be careful when you press out the pin in the shaft, to not break the plastic bushing at the bottom of the distributor.
You might be able to swap the electronic parts into your old distributor too, but I don't remember if the top of the shaft swaps out or not. The difference in housings is just that part where the wires exit, which is easy to modify.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-12 3:54 PM (#573402 - in reply to #573376)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Powerflite - 2018-11-13 2:20 AM

Or...you could just swap the weights and springs from your current distributor onto your electronic one. You don't need a re curve machine if you already have what you want and have the weights & springs right in your hand. Just be careful when you press out the pin in the shaft, to not break the plastic bushing at the bottom of the distributor.
You might be able to swap the electronic parts into your old distributor too, but I don't remember if the top of the shaft swaps out or not. The difference in housings is just that part where the wires exit, which is easy to modify.


What a good idea, I will check it out, thanks.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-12 4:18 PM (#573406 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5567
50005002525
Location: So. California
If I remember correctly, I believe the top of the shaft that has the lobes for the points to ride on, will swap out, and you can just install your electronic parts into it from that point. That makes it so you don't have to press out the pin in the bottom and take out the shaft. You can just replace the parts at the top of the distributor to convert it to electronic function. Hopefully I am remembering it correctly.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-11-15 3:49 PM (#573605 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

FYI

I plotted the original and the aftermarket distributor advance curves.
Hardly surprising the car ran like crap and was pinging its head off!

I cant even imagine what this curve could possibly work with!

The new distributor is now curved the same as the original
Also replaced the chinese module with a Bosch with variable dwell.

Ive kept the original distributor as is unmodified, I like to keep all the original parts unmolested and will use the new one with original curve.

I can only guess that my poor running problems will be over.

Will test drive tonight :-



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-11-15 9:15 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
sonaramic300
Posted 2018-12-08 9:12 PM (#574903 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Member

Posts: 49
25
Choke thermostat that was mentioned earlier.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Mopar-Choke-Assembly-1974-75-A100-D100-...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
sonaramic300
Posted 2018-12-08 9:13 PM (#574904 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Member

Posts: 49
25
Intake bolts should be 50 ft lbs in the service manual. Where did 25 ft lbs on the intake bolts come from?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-12-08 9:56 PM (#574906 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
Since getting the distributor re-curved back to standard it was seemingly running lean.
Was getting some weird hesitation and pinging since putting it back together.
Seemed to be fuel related now that the timing is back to the normal curve.
After numerous tests an re-tests, finally got the jetting sorted for the new manifold.
The Edelbrock manifold seems to flow a lot more air.
So if anyone is interested, here are the final results.

Now, this is where its at and is purring beautifully and running very well at all revs:
I did not replace jes but resized the original jets a number of times.

Edelbrock Performer 440 manifold.

Standard carb, Carter 3108S

Primary jet was 2.10 mm, 2.25 mm now 2.40 mm (0.095")

Secondary jet was 1.65 mm, 1.80 mm, 1.90 mm, now at 2.20 mm (0.087")

Needles, standard, 16-160

Metering jet spring, maximum, approx 10 hg, (standard spring was already as hard as the hardest Edelbrock), so used one I had that stiffer than all of them.

Accelerator pump at maximum stroke

Timing at 10 degrees

This has removed all hesitation and all pinging and going great at all revs.

Hope this is helpful for someone :-)

Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-12-08 10:05 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Posted 2018-12-10 11:30 AM (#574989 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: RE: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 154
1002525
Location: Locked in my Canadian garage....
Geeez. Never saw this thread.
Oil pooling? You have lots of blowby.... pour some solvent in your old valley gasket, see if it trickles through a crack. I've seen quite a few cracked original valley pans.
What is your total timing? If iron heads I'm not sure I would run more than 34-36. If you have 10 degrees initial you would need 24-26 degrees mechanical advance to do that. Are you running the vacuum advance or is it plugged?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Posted 2018-12-10 11:36 AM (#574991 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 154
1002525
Location: Locked in my Canadian garage....
If you change the springs/weights in your distributor it will change the RATE of advance in your distributor, but not the total amount of mechanical advance. Some aftermarket distributors allow adjusting total mechanical advance, some need slots elongated or welding up.... depending on your need.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Posted 2018-12-10 11:38 AM (#574992 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 154
1002525
Location: Locked in my Canadian garage....
Never mind, I see you got it sorted!!

What distributor did you buy that had that curve in it?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-12-10 2:36 PM (#575004 - in reply to #574992)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney
CrAzYMoPaRGuY - 2018-12-11 2:38 AM

Never mind, I see you got it sorted!!

What distributor did you buy that had that curve in it?


N & P performance Parts.
Clearly a faulty unit but they will not reply to any emails.
I even sent them the plot.
Just a rebranded cheap and nasty Chinese knockoff :-(

What can I say, I got conned :-(
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Stroller
Posted 2018-12-16 11:40 AM (#575325 - in reply to #571239)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 195
100252525
Hm said it before and I'll say again. Not only the heat risers but the cross overs being blocked can cause hesitation and this goes to choke issues. Did that edelbrock intake block off the cross overs? If a racing engine not a problem, but a daily driver is a problem. It heats up the intake under the crab to help fuel dilivery and atomization in cold start up and chily temps. I wish you the best but wondering if in the work you did if checked the play in the timing chain?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1coolbanana
Posted 2018-12-16 3:05 PM (#575337 - in reply to #575325)
Subject: Re: 60 Golden Lion 413 Oil in Valley


Veteran

Posts: 253
1001002525
Location: Sydney

Stroller - 2018-12-17 2:40 AM

Hm said it before and I'll say again. Not only the heat risers but the cross overs being blocked can cause hesitation and this goes to choke issues. Did that edelbrock intake block off the cross overs? If a racing engine not a problem, but a daily driver is a problem. It heats up the intake under the crab to help fuel dilivery and atomization in cold start up and chily temps. I wish you the best but wondering if in the work you did if checked the play in the timing chain?


No, the heat riser is working as it should and the choke works perfectly too.
Was purely a jetting problem, now completely resolved driller out the jets a couple of sizes to accommodate the better airflow through a good manifold.

I did have to rework the choke cavity though and make a cover to fit the original choke, closed it up to retain heat, but works great.
Very happy with it.

I completely forgot about checking the timing chain. With all the other dramas, it completely slipped my mind

 



Edited by 1coolbanana 2018-12-16 3:16 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page