Just doing my part to assist anyone in the future planning to do a 1965 C-body front disc brake upgrade. I mostly followed the advice of Richard Ehrenberg (of Mopar Action) in his article titled "Discotech". I think I could about write a book on doing this conversion in my 1965 Monaco, but it would probably only sell 5 copies! ;-) Please feel free to add any commentary... especially if you can share any known compatibility of spindles/ brakes/ etc. from C-bodies newer than 1973. Obviously I can only write about what I already know... new information is always appreciated! Also check out my links for some of the cool new tools I picked up to do this job. Love them!
We had a great time at the Street Machine Nationals and I now have over 1000 miles on the Monaco's new brake setup. I'll call it a success!
The funny part of the whole thing:
I thought I would be marveling at the car's stopping power every time I put my foot down on the pedal. The fact is that you end up completely forgetting about them as you will find your car stops like any other car that you drive... well, more modern cars that you drive without ABS anyway :) This is actually very comforting when you take into consideration that our cars weigh in at 3,975 lbs (just a bowling ball and a golf bag under 2 tons)!!!
A couple unique things about '65 C-bodies:
1. I'm not sure when Chrysler changed this, but the brake lines on '65 C-bodies come forward on top of the sub-frame rails from the combination block. the passenger side runs under the radiator and is fastened to the core support and then back up. I'm guessing this changed in '66 or '67 to run back along the firewall and forward to the brakes. I'm assuming this modification was to protect the lines in the event of a front end collision. This is important to note because it puts the brake lines in front of the calipers as opposed to the rear on later models. I kept my brake lines in the original location and located the calipers to the rear of the rotor. You will need to turn the front brake line brackets on both sides about 90 degrees. You'll also need to re-bend, cut, and re-flare the brake lines on both sides to meet the new bracket angle. (I'll show pics and cover that later).
2. I believe the brake line coming from the combination block to the rear brakes in later model cars was mounted to the outside edge of the driver's side sub-frame, where on ours it is mounted just inside of the rocker panel/ floor pan crimp (another safety modification moving the line inboard I'm sure). I discovered this talking with a friend who had mounted his proportioning valve on the sub-frame vertically with the knob pointing down on both his '66 and '73 Darts. If you maintain the factory location, as I did (much easier!), you'll need to mount the proportioning valve horizontally with the knob facing inboard. I designed and fabricated a bracket that bolts onto one of the bottom front fender bolts that works perfectly! (I'll show pics and give dimensions for that later).
My specific situation:
This is the PERFECT time to rebuild your entire front suspension! I did not.
Reasons:
1. My front suspension was still pretty tight (may have been previously rebuilt or just babied... not sure).
2. The alignment on my car was already perfect (you could take your hands off the wheel at 75 mph and it didn't wander). This brake modification shouldn't change the alignment at all (as I didn't remove the lower ball joints). Try it out at slow speeds when your done and make a judgement call. Obviously, if you rebuild the front suspension, get it aligned... your squealing tires will remind you!
3. I was in a big damn hurry for this car show and my original front brakes were shot!
4. I'm cheap, but that's another story :)
Some articles I read said to release the tension from the torsion bars before removing the existing drum spindles. Only do this if you're planning to rebuild the front suspension. Otherwise you'll need an alignment for sure as changing the ride-height adjustment will affect it. I cut a couple blocks from railroad ties to place under the lower control arms while I did the work. The weight of the car sitting on the blocks will keep the control arms stationary. I do recommend having the new spindles ready to install as soon as you remove the old ones and do some clean up. I had jacked my car up and down several times once the spindles were removed which made mounting the new ones harder. A few bounces on the front bumper brought everything back down enough to get the bolts in, but it took some messing around.
I'm kind of a nerd when it comes to jobs like this. I spend a horrific amount of time cleaning, wire wheeling, wiping down parts with lacquer thinner, and painting them... bolt heads too! I recommend Krylon gloss black from a rattle can as it's a tough finish and dries in 10 minutes! I used a Rustoleum hammered silver color for the splash shields as the factory galvanizing had worn off in many places. I like clean and painted parts because it makes it easier to spot a leak when you're done and your hands won't get as dirty putting it back together... pretty too!! Obviously, none of this will affect how the brakes work and you don't need to do it.
What you'll need from a donor car:
Everything you can grab from a 1973 C-body with disc brakes. I can tell you for fact that the front sub-frames and suspensions were identical on C-bodies from 1965 to 1973. I think earlier cars with disc brakes used a 2 piece rotor... avoid those! You want the unicast rotors... I believe all '73s had them. The spindles and caliper adapter brackets are the most important pieces that you'll need. Splash guards are nice if they're not completely rusted away, but the brakes will work fine without them if you can't find better ones. Parts from a 1973 car will be a direct bolt on with your stock lower ball joints in place. I'm not positive that later models won't work, but that would require further research from parts catalogs that I don't own or have access to. If possible, try to find a single car with everything you need... it just makes life easier. You can remove the entire wheel assemblies at once by taking along the donor car's lower ball joints. Take the master cylinder for comparative purposes and to use as a core exchange. Take the brake lines from the master cylinder to the combination/ proportioning valve no matter what the condition of the lines! You'll need the fittings to the master cylinder as they are unique (and different sizes). You won't find them in the drawers at Napa!! If you don't have the luxury of having the entire system from one car, a later model Chrysler product will probably have the same master cylinder fittings. You can take the combination/ proportioning valve for ease of removing the lines, but I don't recommend using it. Your stock combination block will adapt just fine and is what I used.
New parts:
The basic answer to all replacement parts needed is 1973 Chrysler Newport or New Yorker. Napa's computer system seemed to get all confused if I made any mention of 1973 Dodge or Plymouth C-bodies. I trained myself to say "1973 Chrysler New Yorker w/ a 440" for just about everything at the parts counter (not exactly sure why they ask for the engine size, but we've all dealt with this).
Depending on condition, you may be able to re-use everything from the donor car. One of my rotors was in spec for being turned and the other wasn't. I opted for 2 new rotors. I could have re-used the old bearings, but opted for new ones. Get new rear seals. My calipers were good enough to rebuild, but I got remanufactured ones. They were too nice to get rid of, so I exchanged another crappy set of calipers from another car and kept the originals on the shelf. Brake hoses could be re-used if they're not all dry rotted and cracked as mine were. I did re-use the brake lines going from the master cylinder to the combination block after much bending and tweaking. If your car has factory power brakes as mine does, the factory booster will work perfectly with your new setup.
Rear drum brakes:
Everything here stays the same. Repair or replace everything with stock 1965 parts if necessary. I replaced the cylinders (will explain).
Dot 5 brake fluid (optional):
Part of my upgrade included switching to Dot 5 brake fluid. It is silicon and won't cause damage to paint. It also will not absorb moisture as Dot 3 and the others all do. This should guarantee that my new brake components will last for a VERY long time. It is also very expensive compared to Dot 3. Dot 5 doesn't like to mix with other brake fluid types, so I recommend its installation in a completely clean or new assembly of brake components. This is why I chose to replace my rear cylinders. I also sprayed a lot of brake parts cleaner into ALL my lines many times and blew them all out with compressed air. You'll find varying opinions on Dot 5 if you read around the internet. It seems to be growing in popularity with the classic car guys, especially since many of our cars live parked in a garage 8 months of the year... mine does :( I give it a big thumbs up so far!
Putting it all together:
Essentially the plumbing is the most time consuming part. In general, what you're doing is putting a plug into the combination block where the rear brake line used to be. You'll need to get a brass bushing to go into the top of the block (where the single 1/4" line used to go) which adapts it to a standard 3/16" fitting. The combination block will now serve the front brakes only (attach to the rear chamber of the master cylinder). You'll need to splice a proportioning valve into the rear line (as I mentioned earlier). This is necessary to keep the rear brakes from locking up! The front line of the master cylinder can then be connected to the line going to the rear brakes. Be sure to use the proper compression fittings and double flare all new line connections. (I'll discuss dialing in the proportioning valve later too).
This is the proportioning valve I used:
The bracket that I designed will work with this unit perfectly.
Buy or borrow this tool... or one like it!:
OMG!! This inline flaring tool is the best ever! I've had nothing but bad luck with the bar type flaring tools. They're not kidding when they say a factory perfect double flare every time! You'd have to spend $100s to find something even comparable... not bad for 50 bucks! They were too cheap to include the required allen wrench with the kit. Your feelings of being cheated will go away after you see the results!!
I also like this tool:
This came in handy, but definitely practice with it on scrap pieces before using it on something you value! This tool also works great for grabbing onto the brake line next to a stuck fitting when you're trying to loosen it (keeps the whole line from turning with the fitting)!
The only folks I knew that had done this job on a similar car went to the aftermarket. Using aftermarket sources such as Scarebird or Wilwood are both fantastic alternatives. I just wanted to build it as closely as I believe Ma' Mopar would have done it! This whole project took me about a month, but it was accomplished at a fairly relaxing pace. Most of my time was spent researching, test fitting, mocking up the spindles & calipers to check for brake line clearances, etc. You won't need to mess with that! If you don't care what everything looks like, have all your parts lined up and ready to go, and do it just like I did it; you could probably knock it out in a long weekend!
There's still a lot more details to share, but this should put you on course. Of course, I'll do my best to answer any questions while you're at it!
Cheers!
Dan Bendixon
-1965 Dodge Monaco
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