one thing to remember on all this about stopping fast , is if you can lock wheels with stock ( you can ) other brakes cannot therefore “be better” at fast stopping as tires break loose . That goes to tires . but mountain grades / towing , drums can overheat badly but so can toy discs, including conversion discs . Ability to hold heat is how much they weigh Discs cool faster , yes but can’t be by much . Had a fire once with brand new 82 dodge club cab 150 ( they used what to me were tiny discs for a fairly big truck , but standard size on W 100 ) so 8’ bed full of firewood , in just heavy stop /go traffic around Boston 128 , got hot ( smell) followed by long gentle grade — the toy discs burned up , no brakes at all. Almost crashed at bottom of small hill , 8’ bed full of wood . And they were probably larger than the Dart ones we put in our 14” wheels . My next truck was a GMC step side about 83 , chosen over that brake failure, fantastic discs 2 x as large as toy dodge , let alone dart . Really liked those GM disc brakes.. See incestuous validation , about conversions .’ Another whole route is buick aluminum encased outer drums on our 12” system like that race 300 B . = cooling , , yes and no booster needed Guy detailed how he did it , machined adapters — we need to archive that , but 5 or 5.5 bolt pattern an issue … have to do back , and new wheels , takes away our hub caps Towing with vintage 300 ? really ? I like that … Buick ; or stock
in closing . just glance at OD of challenger or charger discs now . then look at conversion discs you plan to put on .. On Jul 10, 2024, at 3:55 PM, 'dan300f' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
When I first bought my F, I had questionable issues with my front drums. My mechanic, John Characky, who many of you know, suggested I cut scoops in the backing plates of the front brakes. So, near the front of each plate, 90 degrees from the top of the plate, about 1" from the perimeter, I cut a scoop (arc) about 4" long and 3/4" wide and bent it outward about 45 degrees. This made a big difference in my braking. However, being an old Pennsylvania farm boy and mechanically minded, I just had to go for front discs. So, about 5 years later I designed and installed disc brakes of which I am quite satisfied. There is an article in the Tech section of the Club's web site on how I designed my discs. I also went from 14" to 15" rims to accommodate the rotors. I still use my beautiful 300F 14" wheel covers. There is an article on this project also.
Actually, my claim to fame is winning the PA State 4-H tractor driving contest at Penn State U. in October of 1955 against 1 4-H'er from each County (About 67 counties.) on a John Deere B. I just love that putt putt exhaust sound.
Dan Reitz Bell canyon, CA
Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
-------- Original message -------- From: Nick Taylor <nicksgaragesd@xxxxxxxxx> Date: 7/10/24 7:09 AM (GMT-08:00) To: James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx> Cc: 300 Club <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} HELP! Need front brake backing plate for 1957 300C
I've only done a disc brake conversion on one of my old cars and that is my 1964 Dodge 440 wagon. I used to tow my vintage teardrop camper with it here in California. The last time I drove it with front drums was down a windy mountain pass with the trailer. The brake fade was so bad and that was with driving it in first great down most of it. Also driving it in freeway traffic could get frightening. Of course it only started out with 10 inch manual drums. It currently has 1973 Dodge Dart manual discs on the front. It's well balanced but I plan on adding a booster to it.
I have the factory drums on my 300F and they work great, but driving in traffic is definitely not fun.
I'm planning to put a front disc conversion on my 1960 New Yorker as it will be used to tow my current vintage full size travel trailer. I've gotten good recommendations from people who have done the conversion and drive their cars a lot. I've already changed to 15 inch wheels and larger tires.
I agree with everything you and Henry are saying and I also disagree with what you and Henry are saying.
First let me ask the following question. Will everyone who drives ONLY a classic car and does not own a modern car raise their hand please?
I have never owned a “modern car”. The newest car I have owned is 1971 and that was 40 plus years ago. Since then, the newest car I have owned is 1966.
The drum brake systems work fine in the driving conditions of the day they were designed for. Not so much today.
The traffic of today, at least in Northen California, is such that one is using their brakes much more often. I have had to deal with minor brake fade just on the freeway due
high speeds coupled with stop and go. The last time I came back down from Lake Tahoe the combination of higher speeds and the down mountain driving brake fade was quite bad. The problem is that you realistically cannot just downshift into a lower gear and
come down a mountain at 30 MPH. People are on your ass nearly pushing you off the road if you try it.
Anti-Lock-Brakes. People have developed driving habits that even if you leave a lot of distance, they use that space are their personal lane change space. The drop into it and
then jump on their anti-lock-brakes thinking that you can slow just like they can. At 70 MPH the drums will slow you down but not nearly as fast. If you hit them hard any variation in the drums can and does lead to steering instability. Not good. Especially
when the road is wet and can be just as problematic is a front rear imbalance.
Some 90% of the brake shops out there do not know how to properly do or have the tools to do a proper drum brake job. So, if you are using the cars a lot like I do, one must
do all the work oneself. I know an 85-year-old with all the money one wants, and several classic cars and he cannot get anyone to do a proper brake job and he is having problems with the brake on his cars.
This is why on my 1947 Desoto, the daily driver for the last 22 years, I put disc brakes on the front. No power. Works just fine. Stops as good as the 12-inch drums. No fade.
Very good directional stability. Take 10 minutes to put in a net set of pads.
My 1949 Desoto Convertible. Put in a 4-wheel disc system with a Midland Ross remote booster. Sill single master cylinder. Work almost too well. Stops as well as a new car,
less the anti-lock.
The 300K is taking over the daily driving duties. The front is going to get a disc conversion. The drums are fully rebuilt by me and are working just fine. Of course, I do have
brake fade a lot with the hills here in San Francisco or mountain driving or getting caught in freeway down hill stop and go traffic.
Since this is the car that is going to take us into retirement and death, I think that a good disc system on the front is a better fit for the intended use. In addition, as I
get older and choose not to do brakes myself or if I cannot, any shop around over the next 20 years and change the front pads and discs in a few minutes without specialized knowledge or tools. You cannot say that about drums.
The engineers did a fine job back in the day on these cars. They however could not project to 2023 the amount of traffic, the higher speeds, and the lack of grace of the modern
drivers.
All that said, I keep all the parts together and well-marked with all the cars I have converted so the next owner can choose if he or she wants to convert it back.
Over the next month or so, I will get the 300K converted as it is all sitting on my bench and I will report one how the car brake system feel for the better or the worse when
I do.
James
agree with Henry , the problem with dual leading shoe brakes is experts who are not . Incompetent work is almost the rule .
The small discs that fit inside 14” rims are marginal at best , and pedal feel or security are just not there on small discs taken from a dart . I have that .
However 15 with larger discs it gets maybe equal . But frot to rear balance is not there and long pedal travel
I have two F with 17 “ wheels and larger discs . I often question why I did the disc part , but the 17” wheels and michelin on them are an unquestioned step up.
Part of braking , if not most of it is tires . As is handling .
Depends what you want , right?
Another aspect is incestuous validation ; someone who worked hard to put discs on is seldom going to admit it’s a poor or marginal result
A full wilwood big system is no doubt superior , including booster etc , but why ?
Big red that 62 went 150 with stock brakes . Built by smart people
I have previously asked for proof (even one brake test) that fitting 11” discs instead of 12” drums is a measurable improvement. All I’ve heard is crickets...
I recall discussing this with Gil Cunningham years ago. For 1957, Chrysler actually designed a brilliant braking system for the era. Go look at the test videos on YouTube. While superior, it was not as mechanic friendly and was more costly than the Bendix
system that replaced it. And 60 years later, you can’t go to your Chrysler dealer to buy parts. I get it.
But even mechanics such as Uncle Tony realise that engineers aren’t stupid. They design for more than a single stop on dry pavement. See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q5jhIgGjoU
As an engineer I won’t be fitting half of a braking system designed for a car that was 800 pounds lighter and fitting a proportioning valve to the rear brakes
to actually reduce its braking capacity to match the front, unless someone bothers to test it to show it works better. Please show me where even Willwood have test results for their expensive systems that can be scrutinised.
If you really, really wanted better brakes you might start by taking the complete braking system off a late model 300C. Oh no! Then you would have to use 20”
wheels and low profile tyres and that wouldn’t be original would it...
Just my opinion. I can drive older cars within their limitations. Do what you like - but
please test modifications properly and thoroughly. While you may never have to do a panic stop on a curving wet freeway with your whole family on-board, it was something that engineers had to consider, even 60 years ago.
Henry
I would consider disc brake conversion, not allot of money. Gary
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2024 5:02 AM
Subject: {Chrysler 300} HELP! Need front brake
backing plate for 1957 300C
Hello All -
Following an extensive restoration of virtually every system on my late father's 1957 Chrysler 300C convertible, I have endured five maddening years of the right front brake dragging, pulling, and
sometimes even locking up hard enough to stop the wheel from turning! I've replaced wheel cylinders, shoes and return springs to no avail. Last month the RF brake locked up hard enough to skid the tire at 5 mph in a parking lot, and I only could get it
unlocked by backing up a few feet, but then it would either drag hard or lock up again as soon as I went forward. I was lucky to nurse it a few miles back home, where I had to again skid the jammed RF wheel 20 feet into the garage. I won't dare drive it
again until I get it fixed for good! Everything looks OK when I pull off the drum (although the lining on the trailing shoe is worn down to 1/8" after less than 1000 miles on the restoration - that's how bad the RF brake has been dragging all this time!
With nothing obviously wrong, I just didn't know where to go from here.
Just today I came across a very old article from George Riehl that described my symptoms exactly and diagnosed that one of the long, square-section springs within the backing plate had broken, and
the only fix is to get another complete centerplane backing plate - suggesting that one from a 1957 New Yorker or perhaps even a '57 Dodge or DeSoto would work (must specify for 12" brakes). This is the link to that article:
FRONT BRAKE BACKING PLATES with 12" brakes (ch300imp.com) That article includes photos of the backing plate I need.
My problem is that I don't know exactly the terminology for what I need and don't know the best places to start looking for such an old part. I can provide a photo of the backing plate I (think)
I need, but can't post it with this message on the listserver.
Can anyone please help me clarify exactly what to ask for and perhaps even more importantly, who/where might be the best place to start looking?
Ray Melton Las Cruces, NM 1957 Chrysler 300C cvt s/n 3N572517 (April 1957) (575)642-3151
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