--I agree with everything you and Henry are saying and I also disagree with what you and Henry are saying.
First let me ask the following question. Will everyone who drives ONLY a classic car and does not own a modern car raise their hand please?
I have never owned a “modern car”. The newest car I have owned is 1971 and that was 40 plus years ago. Since then, the newest car I have owned is 1966.
The drum brake systems work fine in the driving conditions of the day they were designed for. Not so much today.
The traffic of today, at least in Northen California, is such that one is using their brakes much more often. I have had to deal with minor brake fade just on the freeway due high speeds coupled with stop and go. The last time I came back down from Lake Tahoe the combination of higher speeds and the down mountain driving brake fade was quite bad. The problem is that you realistically cannot just downshift into a lower gear and come down a mountain at 30 MPH. People are on your ass nearly pushing you off the road if you try it.
Anti-Lock-Brakes. People have developed driving habits that even if you leave a lot of distance, they use that space are their personal lane change space. The drop into it and then jump on their anti-lock-brakes thinking that you can slow just like they can. At 70 MPH the drums will slow you down but not nearly as fast. If you hit them hard any variation in the drums can and does lead to steering instability. Not good. Especially when the road is wet and can be just as problematic is a front rear imbalance.
Some 90% of the brake shops out there do not know how to properly do or have the tools to do a proper drum brake job. So, if you are using the cars a lot like I do, one must do all the work oneself. I know an 85-year-old with all the money one wants, and several classic cars and he cannot get anyone to do a proper brake job and he is having problems with the brake on his cars.
This is why on my 1947 Desoto, the daily driver for the last 22 years, I put disc brakes on the front. No power. Works just fine. Stops as good as the 12-inch drums. No fade. Very good directional stability. Take 10 minutes to put in a net set of pads.
My 1949 Desoto Convertible. Put in a 4-wheel disc system with a Midland Ross remote booster. Sill single master cylinder. Work almost too well. Stops as well as a new car, less the anti-lock.
The 300K is taking over the daily driving duties. The front is going to get a disc conversion. The drums are fully rebuilt by me and are working just fine. Of course, I do have brake fade a lot with the hills here in San Francisco or mountain driving or getting caught in freeway down hill stop and go traffic.
Since this is the car that is going to take us into retirement and death, I think that a good disc system on the front is a better fit for the intended use. In addition, as I get older and choose not to do brakes myself or if I cannot, any shop around over the next 20 years and change the front pads and discs in a few minutes without specialized knowledge or tools. You cannot say that about drums.
The engineers did a fine job back in the day on these cars. They however could not project to 2023 the amount of traffic, the higher speeds, and the lack of grace of the modern drivers.
All that said, I keep all the parts together and well-marked with all the cars I have converted so the next owner can choose if he or she wants to convert it back.
Over the next month or so, I will get the 300K converted as it is all sitting on my bench and I will report one how the car brake system feel for the better or the worse when I do.
James
From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of John Grady
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2024 04:35
To: Henry Schleimer <henry.schleimer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Gary <garythepartsdoc@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; 300 Club <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Ray Melton <rfmelton@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} HELP! Need front brake backing plate for 1957 300C
agree with Henry , the problem with dual leading shoe brakes is experts who are not . Incompetent work is almost the rule .
The small discs that fit inside 14” rims are marginal at best , and pedal feel or security are just not there on small discs taken from a dart . I have that .
However 15 with larger discs it gets maybe equal . But frot to rear balance is not there and long pedal travel
I have two F with 17 “ wheels and larger discs . I often question why I did the disc part , but the 17” wheels and michelin on them are an unquestioned step up.
Part of braking , if not most of it is tires . As is handling .
Depends what you want , right?
Another aspect is incestuous validation ; someone who worked hard to put discs on is seldom going to admit it’s a poor or marginal result
A full wilwood big system is no doubt superior , including booster etc , but why ?
Big red that 62 went 150 with stock brakes . Built by smart people
jg
On Jul 10, 2024, at 3:21 AM, Henry Schleimer <henry.schleimer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I have previously asked for proof (even one brake test) that fitting 11” discs instead of 12” drums is a measurable improvement. All I’ve heard is crickets... I recall discussing this with Gil Cunningham years ago. For 1957, Chrysler actually designed a brilliant braking system for the era. Go look at the test videos on YouTube. While superior, it was not as mechanic friendly and was more costly than the Bendix system that replaced it. And 60 years later, you can’t go to your Chrysler dealer to buy parts. I get it.
But even mechanics such as Uncle Tony realise that engineers aren’t stupid. They design for more than a single stop on dry pavement. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q5jhIgGjoU
As an engineer I won’t be fitting half of a braking system designed for a car that was 800 pounds lighter and fitting a proportioning valve to the rear brakes to actually reduce its braking capacity to match the front, unless someone bothers to test it to show it works better. Please show me where even Willwood have test results for their expensive systems that can be scrutinised.
If you really, really wanted better brakes you might start by taking the complete braking system off a late model 300C. Oh no! Then you would have to use 20” wheels and low profile tyres and that wouldn’t be original would it...
Just my opinion. I can drive older cars within their limitations. Do what you like - but please test modifications properly and thoroughly. While you may never have to do a panic stop on a curving wet freeway with your whole family on-board, it was something that engineers had to consider, even 60 years ago.
Henry
From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary
Sent: Wednesday, 10 July 2024 3:41 AM
To: '300 Club'; Ray Melton
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} HELP! Need front brake backing plate for 1957 300C
I would consider disc brake conversion, not allot of money. Gary
From: Ray Melton
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2024 5:02 AM
To: '300 Club'
Subject: {Chrysler 300} HELP! Need front brake backing plate for 1957 300C
Hello All -
Following an extensive restoration of virtually every system on my late father's 1957 Chrysler 300C convertible, I have endured five maddening years of the right front brake dragging, pulling, and sometimes even locking up hard enough to stop the wheel from turning! I've replaced wheel cylinders, shoes and return springs to no avail. Last month the RF brake locked up hard enough to skid the tire at 5 mph in a parking lot, and I only could get it unlocked by backing up a few feet, but then it would either drag hard or lock up again as soon as I went forward. I was lucky to nurse it a few miles back home, where I had to again skid the jammed RF wheel 20 feet into the garage. I won't dare drive it again until I get it fixed for good! Everything looks OK when I pull off the drum (although the lining on the trailing shoe is worn down to 1/8" after less than 1000 miles on the restoration - that's how bad the RF brake has been dragging all this time! With nothing obviously wrong, I just didn't know where to go from here.
Just today I came across a very old article from George Riehl that described my symptoms exactly and diagnosed that one of the long, square-section springs within the backing plate had broken, and the only fix is to get another complete centerplane backing plate - suggesting that one from a 1957 New Yorker or perhaps even a '57 Dodge or DeSoto would work (must specify for 12" brakes). This is the link to that article: FRONT BRAKE BACKING PLATES with 12" brakes (ch300imp.com) That article includes photos of the backing plate I need.
My problem is that I don't know exactly the terminology for what I need and don't know the best places to start looking for such an old part. I can provide a photo of the backing plate I (think) I need, but can't post it with this message on the listserver.
Can anyone please help me clarify exactly what to ask for and perhaps even more importantly, who/where might be the best place to start looking?
Ray Melton Las Cruces, NM 1957 Chrysler 300C cvt s/n 3N572517 (April 1957) (575)642-3151
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