Re: {Chrysler 300} 64 K Cross Ram

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 7:58:15 AM UTC-5 jkg wrote:

Carl has the expected experience ,E choke a step up I am in totally favor of . I have the parts but have not gotten around to it . I have several with no heat at all and one F that we converted to manual choke over addressing the high idle issue— not working fast enough without some heat
That manual choke is tricky to do as high idle cam locks choke you can’t pull it out unless you step on gas , it is not just simplistically move the choke plate manually by a cable There are special links and springs to do that right .

But even with no heat it is manageable on a normal temp day , just give it a few minutes to settle down . Yes there are trades , I’ll take them .
A good compromise is no flap , keep elbows and 1/4” holes in elbows . for some flow . Copper sheet is good , or as Don says core plug works for him with hole in it — looks stock no one knows leave heat spring etc outside . .
I have been working on an old Packard ( 47 coupe six) and I went through a lot of effort and manifold machining , making plate covers , to separate exhaust manifold from intake ( normally bolted solid) and got rid of flap , as another packard I had ran way too hot at carb , sometimes boiling modern gas A 60 Buick I have does this too .
Packard guys will screech ,—- as they sit by side of road with “ vapor lock”
Then I added spacer under Packard carb 1/2” aluminum with water in 3/8” hole through . I expect good things! More power no boiling .

Related , what some people call “ vapor lock” is often fuel boiling in the carb erratically . First of all your fuel cannot boil in gasoline under pressure between pump and carb , and if it did it would still obviously be pushed—- boiling gas and vapor — right through when needle opens . But can’t happen in first place , as pressurized there — so insulating that line does nothing . But it can boil in float bowls . idle goes crazy in hot traffic , flooding etc

Where real vapor lock is most likely is at inlet line to fuel pump or in fuel pump , due to low pressure in tank feed line caused by suction . . Packard had that issue, even with older gas so it came with heat shield, often thrown away by “ expert mechanic” . Mine was missing. The exhaust pipe near fuel line or pump causes this, or hot air in their case, so pump seems to be protected by shield shape from radiator air blowing on it . You cannot pump vapor , in pump , so car stops .
So you can pick and choose , I think Carl landed same place I did .
I was first motivated on all this by a melted ram floor under carb and poor warm up / running too , traced to stuck flap . This whole thing , in my opinion as an engineer , on first ram , was a half baked design . Why ultimate F 405 did not use it . They knew…
Bigger fish to fry than fight with this …
I have plan one day to do one water heated and Edelbrock carb too , or maybe machine for AVS on a water heated J ram
Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 20, 2023, at 7:59 AM, John Nowosacki <jsnow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

So, would it be correct to say that if there is no need to vaporize today's fuel with heat, and electric Edelbrock style chokes also have no need for exhaust heat to gradually open up after startup, then heat risers could be eliminated (left wide open) and heat tubes could be blocked off so as not to potentially burn ram intakes?

On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 8:12 PM Carl <cbi...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes, optional 400hp F/G used water heat, special headers (not the same as J/K) and manual chokes. 405hp H used same setup with water heat and F/G headers and manual chokes (as seen on Bud Faubel “big red” at 2015 Macungie meet). F/G/H headers have no provision for exhaust heat and no heat riser/flapper, and are larger than J/K. J/K headers have exhaust heat pipe attachments, no flapper. BTW, the white 405 H we saw in the fella’s collection at Hershey this past spring – had exhaust heated rams not water, suspect it was either a clone 405 H or J/K headers were installed later (couldn’t see well enough). ’62 405 H was a dealer installed accessory, maybe some variation(?), they are too rare to draw any conclusions.

The manual chokes on J/ram K are ideal. Both carb chokes can be set in nearly perfect synch, on/off and in between. In warm weather choke really only needed for cold start, can back off quickly to prevent carbs loading up, will stay on fast idle until the throttle is blipped to reduce to curb idle.

I like electric chokes on F/G (if you are ok with non-stock), I have edelbrock chokes on my G with the 2903 AFBs, chokes open up rather quickly (a couple different settings can be chosen) and both carbs seem to be on same time line. Nice high idle but can get to curb idle fairly quick if desired, car doesn’t stall.

Carl B.

From: John Grady
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2023 4:35 PM
To: Don Cole
Cc: Carl; Tony Rinaldi; Rick King; chrysler-300-cl...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 64 K Cross Ram

hi there is no need to “ vaporize fuel “ today on a day over 30 degrees or so — we have opposite problem with todays gas . carbs go dry sitting there at room temp .
New cars have no heat risers or provision for them at all . FI richens cold mix but no heat .
warm intake air also reduces power as less dense and so less oxygen . Everywhere we have aftermarket “ air gap” manifolds and baffles to keep hot oil off underside of intake , or insulation pads on some . No heat .
This exhaust heat stuff dates back to 30’s when gas was like kerosene .
plus —- no matter all the claims to contrary , — they never come off in synchrony giving erratic weird running during warm up , stalling , one on high idle other is not , lots of hassles around flap shaft rusting shut — and trying to match the warm up exhaust side time .
Why chrysler dropped it in 62 as so many rams were pulled off F and G over stalling , slamming into gear etc etc . We cut the cars some slack , some banker or lawyer did not .

And when it came back in 64 all that was fixed , some heat as Don describes and a manual choke(!) ( on a top end car!)
I think edelbrock electric choke will give you nice high idle cold and both sides work pretty much on same time line I bought two kits ( chinese knock
offs are half $ of edelbrock) and going to see how it does on converting our afb . As Don Cole says , no problems or any you do have are minor compared to the hassles stock can cause you , including burning a hole in ram under carb — if you get in it with flap stuck shut . And you don’t know that at the time ., been there . 405 F used water heat in there I believe?
your mileage may vary , so do as you wish !! .
I remember many times even at shows of our club someone can’t start an F or G and the dance starts .l

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 19, 2023, at 4:43 PM, 'Don Cole' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-cl...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
After owning my Ram-K for nearly 40 years I found that a 1 inch freeze plug fits the heat pipes exactly. I put one at each end of the 4 pipes with a 1/4” hole drilled at each end. That was my secret! It kept the full heat from burning out the plenums at the intakes. I think that J Grady knew my secret. Never burnt one out.
Don Cole
Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 19, 2023, at 2:21 PM, Carl <cbi...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Speaking as a J owner (same setup as ram K), I have the heat totally blocked at the carbs by using the Simplex Co. (Bob Merritt) shims. Using the shims allows one to easily unblock the heat or allow partial heat to the carbs. One can block the heat at the headers, but it would be more work to remove the shims.

Engine performance will be poor in cold weather. Furgitabout driving the car in winter. In cool weather (spring/fall), I have found performance to be normal once the engine is up to full normal operating temperature (i.e. Thermostat open, 180 degrees).

In warm weather I have had no issues. Throttle response is immediate and performance is fantastic. Aggressive throttle application will nearly incinerate the rear tires (no suregrip on this car!). Your toupee will not just fly into the back seat – it will fly into the next county! OK, a little hyperbole there, but you get the point.

Carl B.

From: 'Tony Rinaldi' via Chrysler 300 Club International
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2023 12:40 PM
To: Rick King; chrysler-300-cl...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 64 K Cross Ram

Hi Rick,

Carbs that sit directly on top of intake manifold use the heat of the engine to vaporize fuel. Outboard mounted carbs need heat to vaporize fuel. If you block the exhaust heat completely, your engine will not perform well unless you water heat the rams like the ‘60-‘61 Gran Turismo racing cars.

Suggest blocking the opening 1/2 to 2/3.

Tony

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Thursday, October 19, 2023, 1:29 PM, Rick King <rickk...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi everyone, I am thinking of blocking off the the exhaust heat to the intake manifolds as the carbs get to hot in the summer. Has anyone done this and if so how does the car run in colder weather?
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