Dyke — it is not “flowing too fast “ All that stuff in racing circles and etc started with smokey Yunick . His explanation was wrong . But what he saw and you describe was 100% right .--I don’t know why — but i suspect if no thermostat the intake side of the race rpm pump cavitates at high temp and low inlet pressure , especially at high rpm — you can’t pump steam , it flashes to steam ( cavitation) right inside the pump at maybe 150 F if suction is high enough ( vacuum) caused by a high inlet flow, throttled on suction side by radiator . So flow stops , it boils over in the block , this with wide open thermostat, pump full of steam . Think vapor lock on gas line ,heat and suction , gas boils , same physical thing .Ever notice many cars have a larger bottom hose than top ? To avoid this , even stock .restricting it at outlet reduces the water flow and thus suction drop in radiator probably to the point the pump now has water rather than steam inside to work with . So it works . Unregulated temp but works .I work with hydroelectric turbines , cavitation on outlet side of those due to outlet draft tube suction / vacuum is a problem even with cold river water . yet the high suction there , by putting turbine as much as 10-15 feet over the river tail water, greatly adds to electricity produced — it is like having 15 feet more water pressure on inlet — as water drops after turbine it adds a tremendous suction , but can cavitate to water vapor — so a trade . Cavitation there is violent , bubbles form and then collapse so fast and violently they erode the steel blades with shock waves .There is no question higher flows cool better, —- if they are happening .But in this case the expected higher flow at high rpm does not happen with no thermostat due to inlet cavitation , so it overheats in block at high rpm . suggestion : leave the thermostat , slow pump rpm by 40% . Or go electric .FYI , if YI .By the way —speaking of Yunick , do you guys know a 270” dodge hemi won C altered class at nhra 5 years in row , 57-62 utter complete dominance over smokey , bill jenkins all those Chev experts , the chev guys must have been fielding 1000 283-301 chevs? I talked to the guy , Billy Rasmussen out of Texas in Maine one time long long ago . He was in the 12’s with a 55 dodge 270 “ 4 carb setup baby hemi in a 30’s Ford — terrible to shift 33? ford , closed driveline , coupe.I loved it that he simply toasted the chevies he just walked away at the top end . Just like chrysler Aa fuel cars. Final race it was him and some chev 5 years in a row That class was cu/in divided by weight . love it .Guess he knew more than they did .. all of them . Almost no mopar guys then , Billy is lost to history , but Yunick and his recommendations are still are here ..10 -20 x as many sbc guys as mopar back then , too many to argue with .It’s ok , it works , but not due to slowing a flow that was “too fast to cool “Right on Henry re: more radiator area …Sent from my iPhoneOn Mar 9, 2023, at 2:12 PM, Dyke Ridgley <ridgleyracing65@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Thank you Henry and James for your comments. Henry addressed the common problem of removing the thermostat and then having higher water temps, due to too fast a flow through the radiator. His solution is also correct in that if you do not want a thermostat (in racing engines) use a restrictor to slow down the flow through the radiator to achieve optimum temperature.Dyke RidgleyRidgley Racing5500 Walmsley RdDecatur, IL 62521217-865-2300 p217-865-2309 fOn Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 12:44 PM Henry A. Mitchell III <hamlll@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:--
Two quick observations: when I began racing a small-block Chevy, without the thermostat, the motor overheated fairly quickly. I bought a water restrictor kit https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-16420, a set of discs that drop in the thermostat housing. If I remember correctly, the disc with the smallest hole kept the motor the coolest.
Turning to the 300C: it overheated in ubiquitous California traffic. I had a six row radiator made for me and now the temperature gauge needle rarely goes to the upside of the mid-point.
Henry A. Mitchell
300C
From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of John Grady
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 2:29 PM
To: James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx>; Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 1962 Water Pump & Fan Clutch
There are a lot of misconceptions here.
Faster flow always cools better.Period . That is because max cooling happens when the radiator is kept uniformly hot top to bottom, which obviously disposes of the most heat. (compared to a cool bottom, you have half a radiator) The idea that it has to sit to cool is incorrect.You are not "trying to cool" at all, you are trying to remove heat. as much as possible. Temperature is not "heat", Heat is water flow in GPM times the BTU in the water (temp). That is what carries the total amount of heat , what cools the car . Note "time" in GPM , how much heat per minute. Rejection of heat to air is proportional to temperature difference, so a hot radiator vs air temp, ,one that is hot from top to bottom uniformly, is throwing away a lot more heat than a cooler one. Why it gets hot at high speed is because you are making more heat, nothing to do with water flow rates,---radiator has to get hotter to throw that away. if the flow rate is adequate by design.(it was) --- slowing it down through the radiator will make it hotter,period,as less total heat is thrown away if the bottom is cool.... . That said, the pumps are efficient at a certain RPM range, and can cavitate if over spun, especially high vane count pumps. Gets complicated, but I remember someone once observed here that factory AC pumps have fewer blades than the normal ones in 1960 . Caused much head scratching , if you do not understand. That space between vanes may move MUCH more water (GPM) when associated with a 4 row low restriction radiator than one with more vanes designed for a more restrictive two or three row radiator . remember it is GPM times BTU, (which is related to temp, generally BTU per gallon is always a constant at 180-200 degrees F) , and the faster the water flows the more GPM the more total heat is removed. In fact heat removal is directly proportional to GPM. A many vaned pump may make more pressure but flow a lot less GPM. But you need more pressure like that , to get flow in a skinny radiator ---and you can't put more GPM through it , by using an AC pump, radiator too restrictive-----also no point , if it is already uniformly hot top to bottom , with lower GPM at the higher pressure of a high vane count pump .This is why a partially clogged radiator overheats, the designed GPM does not happen (but flow is sure slowed down-=more time to cool? smile) So use the pump that matches the radiator.
There are variations in 413 pumps and housing , in depth too, in early B blocks, another fiasco. Some had metal plates in back to direct flow, mixing any of that older stuff up ,can be leaving a dead space behind the impeller and poor flow. (been there too) Today's cross matching will get you a 440 pump at NAPA no matter what you tell the guy, (been there) may or may not not work right in your old housing. Best ,maybe to use a modern 440 pump and housing too, or else get into which impeller depth and vane count goes with which old housing, Or just check it. ( I was never able to sort that, no one has the special old pumps anyway). Use a radiator with 4 rows with a stock pump, which may have fewer (AC) or stock vanes. (Hey worked great when new!) Using an AC pump with a thin radiator means low flow ,overheating., it restricts the GPM of the open hi volume pump . All this matched by design. Mess with it at your own risk.
So end of day, spend your $ on a 4 row radiator ....that is where the trouble usually is. More radiator, clean and new, = more heat disposed of.
John G
On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 8:38 AM 'James Douglas' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
One of the known issues with the water moving too fast is that the water stratifies in the tube column in the radiator. The resistance between the water layer against the tube moves slower and the inner layer moves much faster and therefore does not transfer its heat through the boundary layer of water to the tube wall.
I have my cores made by a shop here in Northern California that uses a dimple tube. The dimples cause the water to “tumble” and as such is breaks up the layers and causes mixing even at higher speeds.
James
James
From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Dyke Ridgley <ridgleyracing65@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 1:43:19 PM
To: mplindahl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mplindahl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: D.C. Mason <petergriffinforpresident@xxxxxxxxx>; G VERBERKMOES <zzub@xxxxxxx>; Chrysler 300 List Server <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 1962 Water Pump & Fan Clutch
We deal with pumps running too fast all the time in our vintage race engines. These engines spend most of the time between 5-8,000 rpm and we always have to slow the pumps down (larger pulleys) so the water going through the radiator has time to give off its heat. Yes, you can definitely move TOO MUCH water through an engine and cooling system.
Ridgley Racing
5500 Walmsley Rd
Decatur, IL 62521
217-865-2300 p
217-865-2309 f
On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 12:33 PM <mplindahl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello All,
I am having a hard time accepting the principal that more vanes make the water move faster and therefore, the heat is not dissipated as fast. This does not seem logical.
For every cubic volume of water, the heat loss is less with faster moving water, but the water is moving faster so the total amount of heat removed would be the same or more. Think of throwing a hot brick into a fast moving stream vs. a slow moving stream.
300ly,
Mark Lindahl
From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of D.C. Mason
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 12:01 PM
To: G VERBERKMOES <zzub@xxxxxxx>
Cc: Chrysler 300 List Server <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 1962 Water Pump & Fan Clutch
Matt/George,
The Napa pumps I have been using (42032) have six vanes (pictured). Maybe these are for the a/c cars as Don mentioned fewer vanes. These have worked fine on non-a/c cars too but may not be ideal. I’ll check with Napa to see what the options are.
George that is good info about your problem- I wouldn’t have thought the spacing between the fan clutch and radiator would have been significant at highway speeds- seems it would be dwarfed by the airspeed of wind coming in at 70 mph (whether or not fan spins at all seems almost negligible at that speed). So the closer clearance to your radiator sounds critical for higher speeds unless a red herring…
<image001.jpg>
V/rD&K
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 6, 2023, at 12:15 PM, G VERBERKMOES <zzub@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Hey Guys…Check the distance of the fan-clutch vanes to the radiator. I had the original fan-clutch that came with the car when I purchased it. I decided I should get a new fan-clutch so I took the old one to NAPA and we went through their fan-clutches and found one that matched the one I had. Come to find out the original fan-clutch I had was incorrect. Installing a thermal fan-clutch with the vanes of the fan-clutch 1/2 inch away from the radiator solved my 28 year old overheating problem.
I’ve had my 1965 300L with A/C for close to 30 years. When I first purchased the car it had a flex-fan and it was very noisy so I went back to the original fan and fan-clutch. I then started having overheating problems. At 60-65 MPH the temperature ran right around 190 degrees; if I tried to keep up with freeway traffic 70-75 MPH the temperature would shoot up to 230-235 degrees. I would then slow back down and temperature would go back down. For 28 years I messed with this problem. I live in the San Diego area and over the years I have made countless trips to Phoenix AZ, 700 miles R/T, to the Carmel Meet, Placerville Meet, Alamogordo Meet, two Las Vegas Meets. All the time driving 60-65 MPH. I installed Hi-flow water-pumps, four-row radiator, centrifugal-clutch then went back to OEM configuration. The engine was rebuilt 23 years ago with a salvaged Imperial 413 block. Same problem. For 28 years I drove 65 MPH!
Just before the Pasadena Meet the thermal fan-clutch went out. I got pretty good at changing fans, water pumps and fan-clutches. I got a new thermal fan-clutch from O’Reilly’s and installed it. The vanes on the old clutch were over an inch away from the radiator. The new clutch vanes were 1/2 inch from the radiator (same as my '64.) What a difference! The car no longer overheats! I drove to the Pasadena Meet 125 miles at 70-80 MPH and temperature never went above 210 degrees.
300 Regards...George Ver Berkmoes
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