Forgot to add, Harley Davidsons use stop light pressure switches, very small that are compatible with DOT 5. I used that on my F. From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nick Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:55 AM
To: dplotkin <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; John Nowosacki <jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx>; RON WATERS <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx>; chrysler 300 club <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Rear brake drums / hubs ? changed in 60 ? I think I will do something like this and use a remote reservoir. There were period kits for the single master cylinder. There is one on Per Blixt's Fuel Injection D. This looks to be for a GM master cylinder. See photo attached. This is a Bendix master that fits a 70 Imperial with front disk brakes and a lot of Mustangs (though ports are on the opposite side) and other cars too. I am all too aware of the use of "69 Barracuda" masters which are also 68 New Yorker masters and apply to a lot of other Mopars too. They fit on a Ram car and clear the booster but they are a drum/drum master. I use one on a 61 Plymouth but I could not for the life of me or my wallet get that master to work on my F. Could not get enough braking with the travel. Tried almost everything. I wish I knew how you guys did it with the stock rear drums. I couldn't. Maybe it is the Dot 5 I insist on. The Bendix master in the photo is short and a disk/drum unit. Though fluid capacity is diminished after machining the top off it works rather well. Dan Plotkin -----Original Message-----
From: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 1:48pm
To: "Nick Taylor" <nicksgaragesd@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "dplotkin" <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Nowosacki" <jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx>, "RON WATERS" <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "chrysler 300 club" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Rear brake drums / hubs ? changed in 60 ? I think I have seen or used 67 dart dual there (small overall size ) but ? maybe the stop switch changed to on pedal , and maybe some work on rear fitting entrance . I also have cut the large later Mopar one down too, as you did. , I think from 67-68 Dodge police car , disk /large drum, I made a new cover of 1/4" AL plate, U bolt ( from large muffler clamp ) went under the main master cyl body to go through sticking out tabs on cover, to get rid of high cover bumps and the snap bail wire. .( far less cutting needed) The carb interference ( I think actually ram manifold?) is not very much, some grinding etc may work, probably varies by car. .All from memory long ago, your mileage may vary. I never understood why the Dart one is OK with small reservoirs, yet other mopar have a big reservoir. Big obviously better ; Corvette also works, redrilling plates on fire wall to two larger bolts if the car is all apart, weld the head inside but I have never checked the carb end of that, but it has large reservoirs yet squat and lower, lines go in the side . Also various bores are readily available, and low cost. You may or may not be aware: two different mount heights and firewall plates of MC for power or non power cars of this era, and the pedal arm must match that , to get the correct ratio. MC moves up on a manual brake car. Ah, didn't think about the carb clearance. I was going to install one on my '60 NY wagon but it might conflict with the auto pilot. On the F the only dual master cylinder that will clear the driver side carburetor is the 1970 Imperial unit but it has to be cut down to fit under the booster. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- Date: 11/15/21 12:56 PM (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Rear brake drums / hubs ? changed in 60 ? I was talking to someone on Facebook a while back who has a '60 Imperial there they changed the master cylinder to a dual one but kept the front drum brakes. They used one from a Dart or Valiant that was low profile to fit under the booster. It looks like the attached. All- My F arrived with an AAJ brake kit but the old single circuit master with its residual valve had been left installed. Great pedal, but the brakes dragged badly. With all that 413 oomph previous owners may not have noticed. When I got the car it couldn’t be pushed by hand. The rotors were blue from the heat. I went through hell and a lot of parts until I found a master cylinder that would work along with AAJ’s help and I re-plumbed it for two circuits using a 1970 Imperial master with the top cut down .700. In the end I have a two circuit disk brake system that works. Pedal travel is more than I like but it’s as good as it will get and the car stops. Lesson: Leave your brakes stock if you can. I’d rather have the lousy original F drums in front with a high pedal. hi Ron , agree — but car has completely new 2” brakes backing plates , shoes, cylinders etc . If you increase shoe width , that 1/2 “ added width on each side adds in where ? given a fixed axle flange ? says hubs or axles maybe housing changes length ( I doubt that)—- to allow narrower shoes / drums = the tires must move in or the rim offset was changed? I remember some 57-59 Dodges and plymouths looked weird with narrow tires , maybe 6 cyl used narrower tires and rims? looked tucked under the car to me. who knows. Backing plates must be different for different shoe width ? I don’t know any of this ? While not questioning posted experience on rims not sitting right , that surface is flat (?) but there are issues with lug nut cone shapes bottoming out and Ford 41/2” pattern parts ending up on our cars , especially in the context of changing to all R studs . Leave it all stock is the best answer in 2021 if you can find the stuff Don’t mix stuff up . That said, i put 12 “ F brakes under another 57 Dodge , but looking back I used F axle, (and springs — which are longer , had to relocate rear hangers) . Welcome to a world of crazy minor variations (!) in these cars for no good reason ( engineer hat on ) just like the 3 completely different lines and sizes of early hemi, most of which overlap in cu in ) . I debated putting 12 “ on this car , would have to do fronts then , and I have them . But decided to keep stock . All this is good info . Do parts books on 60 up show drum and hub as separate parts ( quite aside from ? huge effort to separate — as compared to “one piece “ 57-59 parts ) ? Important to know — if one day there are no one piece hub and drum replacements on pre 62 cars ? May be an answer here .. ? Fronts now have later mopar drums (?) , unknown year , we located centers on lathe , pinned location , to hub — other than locating right , they will be squeezed by lug nuts just like later removable mopar drums . That squeeze is what carries the drum brake torque not the pins . I am ok with that , so far so good . Big view , a brake kit from AAJ may end up cheaper $ than all this , but this is a non power brake car . Disc on manual brakes are a little dicey on longer pedal travel and high force . Can work but stock brakes working right is a better feel. Sent from my iPhone not by choice Your cars may have already had larger rims that worked with 12x2-1/2, so you didn't see the problem. I had a 61 Newport with 'smaller' brakes and switched the wheels/tires from it onto my wife's 62 NYer rear end. Upon driving for the first time, the brakes pulsed severely and were not usable. The 'smaller' rims distorted the rear drums when I tightened them onto the axle. Luckily no permanent damage was done as I immediately took them off and switched them back and the problem went away. The same rims that fit 11 x 2 will fit 11 x 2 1/2 and 12 x 2 1/2. Both my 58 Plymouth and 59 Dodge started with 11" drums and are now sporting 12" drums. 12" drums were also used on Plymouth and Dodge police cars. Before 'upgrading' drums, either in width or diameter, make sure you have appropriate wheels/rims that are compatible. Rims designed to fit properly on 11x2 rims won't fit properly over 12x2-1/2 drums. There may even be issues just with different widths. One piece hub and drum for both front and rear. Just researched in the 60
parts book. Interesting to note that the drums were different depending on
whether the car was built in Detroit or not. This is true of 11" brakes, but
not 12", which are the same no matter where the car was built.
John, not sure what you are working on, but I would go with the 11 x 2 1/2,
as there is more surface area. 11 x 2s are inadequate. Or better yet, put 12
x 2 1/2 brakes all around and experience superior braking, assuming you are
working on a junior model which was born with 11" brakes.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of John
Grady
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 1:17 PM
To: chrysler 300 club
Subject: {Chrysler 300} Rear brake drums / hubs ? changed in 60 ?
As we know these drums were factory made by Chrysler in one piece riveted
with hub (?) and possibly machined that way 57-59 and probably back to 30's
. . So perfect centering .
As I still have no success on finding 11 x2 Dodge rears ,( 2.5 are out
there ) - and someone had very poorly modified mine by removing original
drum , adding another loose drum ( later mopar ,? and new studs ) They used
the stud holes to locate , totally inadequate , - as done.. Runs out .060
+ and cut .100 over ( dumb..)! But all that driven by lack of availability ?
So in looking , there are new 60-61 11 x 2 drums around for 60-61 Dodge .
They are loose without taper hub .But as (I think !) I recall 60 dodge used
tapered axles like our 300 do up till 62 . And these new 60 drums fit on
front , too (!) So are 60 mopar drums serviced separately from the hub (
why different drums listed in 60-61 vs 59 back? ) Dodge 11x2 59 back with
hub drums are impossible to get , we may face this on our 12" drums very
soon . Still available ( Kantor last year ) but waning supply and very large
$ .
Does anyone know about this ? The 60 dodge drum has a defined toleranced
pilot hole , I assume for centering , but the 58 hub I have does not have
that machining , 1960 must - although I think I can add that ? Maybe 60
hubs all have it , Or possibly same guy cut the hub face to align new drum
he used in and out?
A drum revision in 60 ? Also in the 60 dodge front and back drums
interchange - a very rational reason to allow hub and drum to separate ??
although the 60 hub has rivet holes too
Obviously all probably applicable to 300 too , just larger drum ... ??
comments ?
Thank you ,
John
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