To kind of close this up , for me anyway, I too have the orange box / mopar conversion distributor on several daily drivers , including the 67 slant six dart convert I drive everywhere , and 67 barracuda 273 . Same exact reasons as Marshall . Slant six points are a real joy to get to , too. I have had no failures of mopar Orange boxes either —100k Miles . But a blue one failed . The point of the first reply was mainly directed at shorting out ballast resistors . Or high ratio coils . Any engineered system will work if instructions are followed . Randomly changing pieces or parameters will cause failures as the system overall design is ruined . And points are truly OK set up right, other than mileage to tuneups . Personally I like the “ repairability” aspect . And the terrific quality of the old iron dual point , some with tach drive , all with oilers and ball bearing vacuum advance — not an off center pivot pin. . And that it won many nascar races , and went 140 mph . Part of the 300 legend/ engineering . And you get the 300 letter car specific advance curve , and the High dwell of dual points. . Not a fit all advance curve from a Chevy or 360 . It matters as the hemi hates more than 28-30 degrees , others may need 35 + So an A block mopar performance distributor curve is off .. .. as far as pertronix , seems fine , just keep an extra in the trunk , use the coil primary ohms they tell you to — Peace —- and good spark! Good discussion, thanks for input , John Sent from my iPhone not by choice
I agree that there are minimal, if any power gains to be made with aftermarket ignitions. Most "seat of the pants dyno" gains are because people have either replaced faulty parts or done something like improving the advance curve.
I've always liked them because of the ease of maintenance. Read that as I don't like leaning over the fender to set the points. I did it far too many times in my youth... Kind of like why I have a guy mow my lawn.
John
Karl, John, and others, I too don't pretend to understand all of the physics and electrical engineering that goes into the design of the ignition systems, particularly the coils, but I also did have a little bit of an introduction to the EE as a ME major in college who chose some EE course elective studies. My thoughts have always been that there is NO magic in the spark. It's only function is to "light the fire" and if it's a good enough spark to do that and if it's done at the right time then there's nothing you can do with the spark to enhance power output of the engine. Our human senses are not capable of accurately measuring things and we allow them to LIE to us and make us believe there are benefits that don't really exist. We can easily perceive performance enhancements that are not real. I have LOTS of experience with ignition systems, admittedly mostly of the breaker points variety and especially magneto ignitions, their failures and their reliability factors and I cannot say that I think electronic ignition systems are better. There are benefits in each of the systems and it's "to each his own preference". Many of you know that I drive a '55 Chrysler 300 which I have converted to 12 volts and electronic ignition of the MOPAR 1970's design. My main reason for the conversion was to simplify the maintenance of my ignition system. The HEMI engines have the rear mounted distributor which is brutal to access with the dual quad carburetion system. It is impossible to do a really good job of installing new breaker points in that distributor without removing it from the engine. I have never regretted making that conversion. My experience with the Pertronix is very limited and so far I have good feelings about their systems. ----------Marshall Goodknight----- 1965 Barracuda 273 4-spd owned since Oct '64 still uses points Please note: message attached From: "Carl cbilter@xxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]" < Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: John Grady < jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, John Sager < cleanthegarageout@xxxxxxxxx> Cc: Larry Jett < larrywjett@xxxxxxxxx>, Intnl < chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, " c300@xxxxxxx" < c300@xxxxxxx> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Pertronix 40,000 volt coil Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:05:36 -0500 ____________________________________________________________ Sponsored by https://www.newser..com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_moreBleach Peddler: I Wrote Trump About Coronavirus 'Cure' http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5ea4d0e08e00150e011cast04duc1Anderson Cooper Says 'He Wrote a Note,' Almost Loses It http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5ea4d0e0b0d3a50e011cast04duc2Kim Jong Un Is Said to Be 'Vegetative' or Dead http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5ea4d0e0d344150e011cast04duc3
Agree with John, couple more points:
Pertronix instructions are written for multiple applications – many vehicles, even stern drive boats – not specific to Mopar. The instructions indicate that the ballast can be removed, if and ONLY if, the coil has the proper primary resistance (i.e. “points” style coil, minimum 1.5 ohms or greater in the primary circuit). . The ballast resistor does not NEED to be removed, and the instructions sort of imply that for systems with ballast resistors and stock OEM coils to leave them in place. I would always use a new coil with a Pertronix conversion.
IDK if better than points for performance but for cruising to meets at legal speeds just fine. Less maintenance too. Pertronix will work fine even down to rather low voltages – seems very “forgiving” – i.e. works fine for me even on 392 hemi with generator at idle with lights on. Yes, if fails you walk but same for OEM Mopar electronic ignition since 1971. Never had a failure with Mopar OEM control box or old Direct Connection – 100k+ miles on many. Only issue might be resin melting out from heat. Why box installed on firewall or inner fender. Had failures with non-Mopar boxes – junk. Every car today is 100% electronic, PCM and other modules, tranny too, no one seems to worry about ECU failures too much.
Long story short Pertronix should work reliably IF properly installed, have written about this in the past. Had a dickens of a time getting it working in the J, talked to the engineers at Pertronix to figure out how it was designed to function from an EE perspective, got it to work in stock J distributor, no issues since. Installed in ’57 New Yorker 392, no problems at all. Timing just has to be reset, substantial change. Your mileage may vary.
Carl B
2 years EE in college, but switched to comp sci
From: John Grady jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 9:58 AM
To: John Sager
Cc: Larry Jett; Intnl; c300@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Pertronix 40,000 volt coil
If you follow pertronix instruction exactly it should be fine . And use their system / coil or whatever they say . And it may use same chips inside as GM , allowing no ballast . I do not know . But “ better than points” is a reach , and failure mode is brutal . You walk. Ballast is not a bad thing when all the rest is designed for it ..
mixing and matching stuff is the problem in all this ...
I agree , to each his own .. !
Sent from my iPhone not by choice
On 25 Apr 2020, at 10:30 am, John Sager <cleanthegarageout@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The Pertronix conversions tend to bring out lots of debate and misinformation. I've had good luck with them (and MSD) and that's my experience. Points work too. Your mileage may vary.
One thing though, all the instruction sheets for the Pertronix conversions that I've read say to bypass the ballast resistor.
I'm not an Electrical Engineer , Didn't stay at a Holiday Inn or play one on TV etc. My late brother was an EE. He was much smarter than me. LOL..
John
On Saturday, April 25, 2020, 09:37:38 AM EDT, John Grady jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Just an input as an EE ,= follow the instructions to the letter .
The coil EE driven parameters they play with , in the aftermarket , actually will reduce performance ( low resistance primary .. that is for CD ( msd)— not points, not for most electronic ignitions ) . High ratio / high volt coils will directly reduce the current in spark = weak spark . Think of welder amps , same deal . Product of volts and current ( watts) is ALWAYS constant ( watts or joules, aka power in the output ) so your hv coil=weak spark, due to less current . It only takes 20 kv at the spark plug to do it ,Factory is 30-35 k v . plenty extra . A .high current spark burns long and hot .. welder again . . to think we know more about optimizing the coil , than say GM , speaks for itself . Dead wrong . 95% BS to open your wallet. Many do . Like pills to make you 17 again , some believe it, swear by it.etc etc
...
Old coil may be defective ( shorted from running or “ testing spark” with a plug wire off— that kills coils) or likely a bad “ new capacitor” . New ones are intermittent junk . Keep your old Mopar one , with copper strap , test it .
GM has a sophisticated automatic dwell control in HEI , cuts dwell at low rpm , to limit current . So no ballast R . Chrysler uses ballast R . GM gives about 7 amps , Chrysler 6 , with correct coil ohms , about the same spark . HEI is a little better way, maybe . But not huge .
Purpose of both is to avoid a way too high current at idle , while still allowing the designed current in the coil at high rpm . You mess with that ( remove ballast) to raise current you will burn out coil if correct one , ( at idle!).
no or little gain at high RPM ( why is complicated , for another day .... involves limited time between sparks to fill up the coil -or inherent L/R time constant.. why 8000 rpm drag racers go 16 volts— or CD ) ;
with no ballast resistor , or wrong coil you WILL pop electronic ignition or burn up your points, overheat coil. Sooner or later . At idle .. probably on a hot day in traffic .
Ballast R is for reducing current at idle, not for reducing designed correct current at high rpm . Last I looked increasing idle spark is not a problem .. Current is on in coil a long time between sparks at idle .. relatively .
Measuring volts on ballast and making pronouncements all wrong too , as drop is going on and off , meter averages it . Meaningless measurement .... . It is not “ dropping 6 volts” even though that is average .
Pertronix goes through the trouble to make 3 different coils . Think . Why is that ? Answer is : They match various electronic designs .
Now this :
IMHO, actually a fact, all older electronic ignitions lose a volt in the main switch transistor so your 13 v now becomes 12 v . Why the heatsink on the orange can . Spark energy in coil is 1/2 L I squared. I in coil is proportional to V . So merit figure = for electronic is (12 sq) 144 , points (13 sq) 170 . Points ARE that much better , = 20% hotter spark . .. for same correct coil .we went 140mph in 300’s on points. Did not skip ... *
I have always been able to go no matter what —with points , setting is good for 10-20000 miles . Pertronix , you walk . And many in club have ... Probably due to no ballast or “ Hot coil” etc .. also wiring that start jumper setup often done wrong . ..
Just sayin ; BS baffles brains , you can screw up your car .
John
PS very rarely can people set up overlapping dual points right on , correctly . Not as easy as it looks . They move as you tighten screw. You need a dwell meter . “Problem with points” = 90% is who is holding the golden screwdriver , slightly off , it misfires badly at higher rpm . Don V does it right .
* anecdote , at test of a 354 hemi on dyno at PK Machine , Fitchburg Ma— one of top race builders in country , 800$ worth of fancy MSD on it ... About 380 hp . MSD died on the dyno (!) ( still looked real nice) , owner ran out to car trunk got stock 300B distributor to continue test . Guess what ? — 380 hp , no breakdowns to 6000. Made my day .
Sent from my iPhone not by choice
On 25 Apr 2020, at 12:56 am, John Sager cleanthegarageout@xxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I've used the Pertronix ignition a couple times now.
Yes, you can bypass the ballast resistor on all the different models. You can also use a lower primary resistance ignition coil with them.
I have seen them installed with the ballast resistor in place for reduced current and they seem to function OK.. On one of my cars, I've "gutted" the resistor and soldered in a piece of solid wire to keep the appearance..
And you're running your AC... Geez, it didn't get out of the 40's here today in Marcellus, NY
John
On Saturday, April 25, 2020, 12:44:35 AM EDT, 'Rich Barber' c300@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Larry:
Thanks for sharing.
I’ve seen many posts about Pertronix ignition over the years but few/no clear statements as to whether or not to use a special coil and/or bypass the ignition ballast. Perhaps different Pertronix models have different requirements? Did you bypass the ballast resistor or just run on the reduced Voltage?
Rich Barber—Running A/C in the house this evening for first time this year in:
Brentwood, CA
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Larry Jett LarryWJett@xxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 8:21 PM
To: Intnl <chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Chrysler300] Pertronix 40,000 volt coil
After two years of trying to determine why my 63 413 Sport was difficult to start particularly when cold, and even harder after it was shutoff when hot and left for 20 minutes to let the block heat sink, I was driving the car less and less.
Good neighbor and pal, Angad Singh suggested I dismiss my ancient and oem Mopar coil and put one of Pertronix's super-duper coils on. At $30 bucks, what did I have to lose? Cheapest tuneup I ever expended.
The car feels like it got a massive dose of testosterone !!!!! Be safe
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__._,_.___
Posted by: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To send a message to this group, send an email to:
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or
go to https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/all/manage/edit
For list server instructions, go to http://www.chrysler300club.com/yahoolist/inst.htm
For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylang
![]()
__,_._,___
|
Back to the Home of the Forward Look Network
Archive Sitemap