You are right , David , but after the second boosted master the single line to all brakes does not care how it "got boosted ".. Or not boosted . In one step or two . Non ram letter car probably has exact same or close to same single line brakes , directly boosted at firewall by vacuum . ( I do not know that personally ). Like 57/ 59 from that point out. And those have front disc conversions . So issue if power brakes are kept is how to physically fit booster and rams ( Fand G approach , booster on top ? No !! )---- or just do modern large discs and go with manual brake master . Dual master drilled and plumbed right might fit (far line down ) . seeing Big Red manual brake set up shows the conceptual way . Single line there , but there was some room left to ram . . But that is not a J or K . And obviously --the correct ratio pedal stops Big Red just fine with no boost . We think correct manual ratio setup under dash changes the vertical location of push rod and master ( and that black plate it mounts to ) Same with big 60 Dodges . JY has a 60 Polara with factory rams and apparently stock manual brakes .. Came that way we think . ( not restored yet ) We are going to measure gometry of pedal against an F . That also frees you from vacuum issues around hot cam . All this by way of explanation discussion and thinking -- and gaining more info . Nothing more intended . I am interested in doing this ( manual) on 60 F i am contemplating building up a bit . Have to have very good dual brakes . I raced two dodges 57 and 60 heavily on street 60-63 , both had no power brakes , stock mopar drums . Stopped ok . Or leg was stronger !
Sent from my iPhone Hi All, The brake plumbing on the 300 J/K is, evidently, a tad more complex. One key factor, as I'm told, is that the remote booster provides boost AFTER the MC into one hydraulic line which leads to both front and rear brakes alike. Ram J/K cars boost the hydraulic fluid while traditional boosted brakes boost only applied foot pressure effort into the MC. This creates a unique plumbing dilemma for which no off the shelf solution currently exists.
If anyone has been able to identify and create a simple workaround I'd be all ears.
David Yet they often put restriction / “balance” valve in rear line? That would slow rear brakes…on the face of it, is the opposite of stated intention?? Lots of conflicting info, in magazines too. Why you might want to slow rear brakes, if large, follows…. I think this “one before other” is millisecond stuff in an emergency , at 1000’s of PSI….but might be very misleading to a guy trying to do this ‘balancing” by playing with needle valve . . But if you set up by “trying how they lock” at moderate pedal pressure it is going to be a strong function of how fast you step on pedal and how hard, if one of them is restricted. ?? thinking you are balancing it by the valve is just not right? Pressure will end up the same , just delaying the inevitable. The friction area and friction developed vs pressure curve is what sets the inherent balance. Physics says the pressures in all lines are all approximately equal, beyond residual valve pressures which are low ( 5-25 psi) And maybe that brake balance equality is not too important (at all!!) in light normal stops for disc vs drum on one car. But for emergency it is figured out to work right by those fixed brake maximum force design ratios and at high “maximum stop” pressures by engineers at factory. My .02. Has to be. All else is probably a distraction. And it is not linear due to self energizing aspect of drums. Which discs do not have. But at high pressures Disc grabs like crazy, system might transition by design between the two systems when mixed on one car. So drums in back would inherently grab a little harder at first, self energize, a normal smooth stop , front discs add some braking , lightly ? What you want? Left alone, that is. And if of correct F/B ratio , from same or similar car. Emergency stop, both will brake fully as intended at max pressure, for balance./control of car . Drum is maxx’d out, if not slipping, disc is doing the heavy stopping work, as weight transfers forward, front wheels have the grip and much more powerful brakes…at high pressures . I have read many articles over the past fifty years and found that Hot Rod in particular makes really a lot of obvious technical mistakes ( “read the vacuum” on a diesel comes to mind in an article about turbos on trucks, another about “expediting exhaust flow routing in a GMC 671”, in an article about superchargers) ; these guys are not engineers, they are backyard mechanics with their own empirical ideas, now writing magazine articles, which they put into print --and others follow it. They often simply do not know, but think really they do, and are well meaning people. My expertise is only in electrical things, have seen so many wrong things it amazes me they made it to print. (16 volt batteries are “better” for instance, MSD ignition with a spark several useless milliseconds later is a great idea(first one , at correct time , has to be right, and strong—see Vertex on blown hemi) ) However, Just like in life in general,, no arguing with strongly held opinion…or the “ if I paid 1400$ for MSD 7 , It for sure made me faster” mentality. ** Ray Brock is no longer there. ** reminds me of hopeless Ford guys in early 60’s (406 about a mile behind chev’s and mopars on street , violent wheel hop so bad you could not take off ) . ‘If it does not go, spend the money on Chroming it” –(makes you happy, instead, with a beautiful chromed 312 , glasspacks and 3 97’s ). From: Rich Barber [mailto:c300@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 4:00 PM
To: 'John Grady'
Cc: 'Anna F Noia'; 'David'; 'Ronald Kurtz'; 'Ray Jones'; 'Rick Vitek'; 'Listsaver 300 Club'; 'Chris Pinder'
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Whoa, Nelly I can’t testify to the content of this web page, but it seems to make sense. The point is made that they want the rear drum brakes to engage first, then the front discs. http://www.classicperform.com/How/How-Master-Cyl-Prop-Work.htm Rich Remember there is never a difference in pressure front to rear , disc or drum at the master , single or dual master, or remote boosted unless it has a stepped bore . Might be some bore ratio change through remote booster but i doubt it ( other than significant vacuum boost itself, which rules anyway ) . So to brakes on J or K --it looks , from brake perspective , the same as any other single master. Ratio front to back on ram car is set by brakes , area ratio FtoB etc not booster . Not by delays or restrictions . None of that exists to my knowledge ..... Conjecture ? We are talking 2000 psi here . Narrowings do nothing unless really narrow ( needle valve) . See earlier on that . Given that ---pressure the same in front and back with correct residual valves a manual or power dual or single would work discs or drums or both but discs would have to come from or be sized the same as those cars stock with 3" drum rears so braking effort ratio is right . ( later large mopars?)--- unless engineered by say Wilwood to work together . i personally had a lot of erratic hassle with single channel remote booster on J ---never trusted it after . One reason i sold car . Bad idea . 6 times more ways to go wrong .it did go wrong about three of those ways . I know they work if you are lucky . Your life depends on luck ? Worse than single master obviously . Has to be .. Same single circuit problem available to punt on you twice and lots of fairly critical adjustments = Much worse . Plus no boost if engine stalls . Try stopping then !! I would rather have dual circuit manual , used to it , than good luck,!!! huge aftermarket discs will do more stopping than any 3 " drums . GM discs are really good , that conversion really works . That is how factory mopar ratio is set up so emergency braking locks up correct ones first . But need correct manual pedal linkage and mechanical ratios, or pedal WAY too hard . Cannot (!!!!!!) use power pedal ratio . Not sure they made these cars 63 up with manual brakes ? They did in dodges 60-61 fits Fand G . Probably H . Needs whole underdash setup , not just pedal arm and moving bolt does not work well . ( pushrod gets angled-- = move master, gets into fiasco . And not sure if dual MC fits phyisically on 63-64 ram . Why seeing Big Red in Pa was cool . Manual brakes done right and ram for 150 mph . = smart guy ! Even if single channel . As mentioned before , full dual police or station wagon setup around 67- 68 worked for me . All factory ratioed . Maybe imperial parts .. My .02 = nothing wrong with manual brakes set up right . Many grannys had them ! Big Red had them ! Brakes will lock up with manual , so boost mostly a convenience ? I have a 50 stude starlight with 354 hemi , mustang front clip and discs , ford rear axle 8.8 drums , corvette dual master on stude manual linkage under floor . Correct residuals external ( wilwood ) . It will put your face onto the windshield , no boost no problems . Has needle valve on rear line ,( took some expert advice ) seems to do little that is real . You can shut off back brakes , then they wont lock. As an aside , i note hot rod guys like the S10 pickup dash booster .. Small and dual master . Never been looked at for 300 ? But out with rams . On the other hand stock is expected when restored . Stay under 40 , then , toes and fingers crossed . Got that Don C ?
Sent from my iPhone
Steve: Good point on the plumbing acting as a proportioning system. I remain convinced that “proportioning valves” are essentially time-delay valves. They seem to provide a calibrated variable restriction with unknown dynamic response. Transient-flow analyses of a hydraulic systems have probably been conducted and measurements taken to somewhat refine the old single-line systems. Eventually, (milliseconds?) the pressure will equalize and static elements such as wheel-cylinder size and shoe length and material will govern. That’s when more iron in the wider rear drums will assist in braking when towing a trailer or on a long downhill run. I believe over-the-counter relined brake shoes have generally lost any of these refinements. So, the plumbing does provide a crude but somewhat effective method of minimizing the premature lockup of rear brakes. The plumbing and distance inherent in the tubing you described certainly do create a similar time delay, but not adjustable. Mother MoPar may have even built a restriction into the tee block. Additional and variable restriction could be added by adding a “proportional valve” to the single line to the rears. Whatever trial-and-error method may have been implemented by the various manufacturers, it seemed to be working as front brakes always wore out first, barring any malfunction at the rear-wheel brakes. I also remain convinced that many people are now alive due to the continuous advances in braking since the early days of externally-contracting mechanical brakes. We should remember that Walter Percy Chrysler was an early advocate of internally-expanding hydraulic brakes in the mid 20’s. Henry Ford got on board, reluctantly, in 1939. Keep calm and 300 on, Rich Barber Brentwood, CA The 64 300 master cylinder (MC) is a single resevior, correct. That then supplies fluid going to and through the remote booster as a single line to a block of sorts(?). Then three (3) lines out from the block, two go to the front brakes, one line to both rears as a single line. The splitting of the flow essentially acts as a proportioning valve of sorts by reducing the brake flow/pressure to the brakes. 1/3 to each front brake, then the 1/3 to the rears is split 1/2 to each rear brake. I'm sure there is some physics involved but I hope you get my point. Going to Discs would have the same affect, the only consideration is the fluid volume required by the calipers delivered from the MC. My point is that the remote booster does "NOT" make a disc brake conversion impossible, just a little trickey, or is that "Trickier". IMHO. Best Regards,
Stephen A. Noia
1-408-210-4736 cell No OEM pro portioning valve on the '64. The remote booster makes disc brake conversions impossible. No manufacturers have been able to figure out a workaround.
David I don’t believe there is a proportioning valve in our ’64 Ram K with the 3” rear drums & shoes. Not that it might not be a good idea. Anyone seen them on 300’s before 1999? Mine get a little grabby in a hard stop—to rear lockup. Not many hours on the new brakes yet. The service manual indicates 3” drums and shoes on all ’64 300’s & NY’s. 2.5” rear drums on Newport only. Length and material of lining are different. Interesting footnote-Police car HD brakes are not self-adjusting. The remote power brake booster on ram-engined cars makes disk brake conversion problematic. Remember when you add the extra stopping power with the 3" rear brakes shoes, you will need to adjust the proportioning valve for less stopping to the rear. I did a similar job on a Montego Cyclone, went from 2" to 2.5" shoes on the rear. I immediately had rear lock up on hard braking. A second thought, going to 3" rears, I assume your front are also 3", correct? Or, do you have disc brakes on the front? I would suggest going disc's all the way round, front and rear. The front are an easy change with several choices, all using stock Chrysler parts. The rear also can be done using the 74 Imperial Rear disc set up. Believe it or not, it bolts straight on to the 8.75 rear end from the 9.25 Imperial rear. I did this on my 66 Sport Fury Convertible, anyway Good luck with it all, any increase in "Brakes" is a Good Thing! Best Regards,
Stephen A. Noia
1-408-210-4736 cell Hello, all:
I converted the rear brakes on my "Knewport" to 3-inch rear brakes. What was needed to go from 2 1/2 inch to 3 inch drums and shoes are support plates that that can mount 3" shoes, hardware and a 3" brake drum. Mine works fine. Three-inch support plates drop back 1/2 inch to accommodate 3" drums on the axles.
Best,
Ron Kurtz
E #292
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/9/15, 'Rich Barber' c300@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Brake shoe retainer/hold down spring - G
To: "'Ray Jones'" <1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx>, "'Rick Vitek'" <rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "'Listsaver 300 Club'" <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015, 8:32 PM
Be very
careful to get the parts for HD brakes as the wider rear
shoes may require different springs and nails. These may
be included under 300, wagon or HD suspension.
Rich in Brentwood with a 300 Ram K car having HD
brakes standard. 3” wide shoes & drums vs. 2 ½”
on most other ’64 Chryslers. Came to me with 2 ½” shoes
in the 3” drums. Worked OK, but t’warn’t right.
Shoe lining material and length on different ‘64’s were
different also, but that’s too much to ask.
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ray
Jones 1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:10
AM
To: Rick Vitek
<rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc:
Listsaver 300 Club <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Ray
Jones <1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Brake shoe
retainer/hold down spring - G Have you checked your local parts
house?This kinda thing is readily
available at any of the 4 parts houses here in
Mena.These springs, pins and cups are
generic, I believe, and fit thousands of
cars.Even if they don't have a kit
listed for your car, check what they have for
fit.I just bought kits for the rear of
my Hurst, and I'm sure the hold downs are the same as
any I have ever installed.The kits may differ due to the
other springs included, which may be different from model to
model, but the shoe hold down is the same.Ray On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:05
AM, 'Rick Vitek' rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Looking for
the brake shoe retainer spring hardware (nail, 2 cups, coil
spring) for a G. Don't see it listed for this
application on internet searches. Does anyone know of a
source? I imagine this retainer length was used on other
applications and would be willing to get a hardware set for
that other application.
Thanks.
-- Ray Jones. Y'all
come on down an see us. Ya
hear?
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marg
No OEM pro portioning valve on the '64. The remote booster makes disc brake conversions impossible. No manufacturers have been able to figure out a workaround.
David I don’t believe there is a proportioning valve in our ’64 Ram K with the 3” rear drums & shoes. Not that it might not be a good idea. Anyone seen them on 300’s before 1999? Mine get a little grabby in a hard stop—to rear lockup. Not many hours on the new brakes yet. The service manual indicates 3” drums and shoes on all ’64 300’s & NY’s. 2.5” rear drums on Newport only. Length and material of lining are different. Interesting footnote-Police car HD brakes are not self-adjusting. The remote power brake booster on ram-engined cars makes disk brake conversion problematic. Remember when you add the extra stopping power with the 3" rear brakes shoes, you will need to adjust the proportioning valve for less stopping to the rear. I did a similar job on a Montego Cyclone, went from 2" to 2.5" shoes on the rear. I immediately had rear lock up on hard braking. A second thought, going to 3" rears, I assume your front are also 3", correct? Or, do you have disc brakes on the front? I would suggest going disc's all the way round, front and rear. The front are an easy change with several choices, all using stock Chrysler parts. The rear also can be done using the 74 Imperial Rear disc set up. Believe it or not, it bolts straight on to the 8.75 rear end from the 9.25 Imperial rear. I did this on my 66 Sport Fury Convertible, anyway Good luck with it all, any increase in "Brakes" is a Good Thing! Best Regards,
Stephen A. Noia
1-408-210-4736 cell Hello, all:
I converted the rear brakes on my "Knewport" to 3-inch rear brakes. What was needed to go from 2 1/2 inch to 3 inch drums and shoes are support plates that that can mount 3" shoes, hardware and a 3" brake drum. Mine works fine. Three-inch support plates drop back 1/2 inch to accommodate 3" drums on the axles.
Best,
Ron Kurtz
E #292
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/9/15, 'Rich Barber' c300@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Brake shoe retainer/hold down spring - G
To: "'Ray Jones'" <1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx>, "'Rick Vitek'" <rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "'Listsaver 300 Club'" <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015, 8:32 PM
Be very
careful to get the parts for HD brakes as the wider rear
shoes may require different springs and nails. These may
be included under 300, wagon or HD suspension.
Rich in Brentwood with a 300 Ram K car having HD
brakes standard. 3” wide shoes & drums vs. 2 ½”
on most other ’64 Chryslers. Came to me with 2 ½” shoes
in the 3” drums. Worked OK, but t’warn’t right.
Shoe lining material and length on different ‘64’s were
different also, but that’s too much to ask.
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ray
Jones 1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:10
AM
To: Rick Vitek
<rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc:
Listsaver 300 Club <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Ray
Jones <1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Brake shoe
retainer/hold down spring - G Have you checked your local parts
house?This kinda thing is readily
available at any of the 4 parts houses here in
Mena.These springs, pins and cups are
generic, I believe, and fit thousands of
cars.Even if they don't have a kit
listed for your car, check what they have for
fit.I just bought kits for the rear of
my Hurst, and I'm sure the hold downs are the same as
any I have ever installed.The kits may differ due to the
other springs included, which may be different from model to
model, but the shoe hold down is the same.Ray On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:05
AM, 'Rick Vitek' rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Looking for
the brake shoe retainer spring hardware (nail, 2 cups, coil
spring) for a G. Don't see it listed for this
application on internet searches. Does anyone know of a
source? I imagine this retainer length was used on other
applications and would be willing to get a hardware set for
that other application.
Thanks.
-- Ray Jones. Y'all
come on down an see us. Ya
hear?
#yiv4715659165 #yiv4715659165 --
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marg
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