RE: [Chrysler300] Group 27 Batteries

["'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]" <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Bob,

 

As I often say, your mileage may vary. Like others reporting in, I have gotten 6-9 years out of batteries doing nothing. One can therefore infer stuff, right? I have gotten dead batteries in two on maintainers. I have also gotten reasonable life on maintainers , unsure why. This info averaged over 100+ batteries, 55 years. The brand of battery matters a lot. The point is getting good results with a maintainer does not mean the maintainer did it.  NE batteries have been very poor, die hard terrific,  when they were sold. Nothing but trouble with AGM batteries, I do not go there personally…but if you believe,  go ahead. As you know, as a battery guy, the 300 regulator charger is not designed to deal with charging AGM batteries correctly. I believe the desired charge rate for AGM  by OEM is carefully limited, to avoid pressure in case? But it works..sort of, on old designs. . I bought a new Mitsubishi mini truck that came with early AGM, a tiny toy battery to me, had 4-5 times dead batteries the first year as computer controlled charging would not let it charge fast even after a jump, which I did not know about. (GF who used truck daily left light on) I  thought charging system was defective…and in general big $ to fix since it was inside the computer.  My basic reaction was “who needs this”. Still is. Get a real battery. 

 

These maintainers do not read voltage to 3 specific digits and temperature defeats all that anyway. I have 35 years of solar , where I habitually do read volts to 4 digits every weekend, it had 12 Trojan golf cart batteries. . At night it reads 12.6x no matter state of charge, if over 50 %. But solar charger makes decisions only when on charge at 15-30A , then that voltage raises and  has meaning. That is my point ----it is from 13 to 14 when on charge, and that correlates to state of charge ,empirically and in reality .The first group of 12 (2400$) were destroyed in two years by idiotic ‘state of the art”  charger design and someone’s great ideas about “equalizing charges” once a month to 15v, reading temp to .1 degree, computer etc. . That is 100% BS. Removed all that,  got 15 years + on set # 2.  Charge stops at 13.8-14, can be set manually in new simple control. Zero problems; 300 same way, but 14+ . 

 

Measuring volts “on charge” at 20-30A  is how 300 mechanical regulator works too, after engine catches. But maintainer current flow is insignificant to changing battery voltage, but AH into cell  adds up over months. It does overcharge it 2x in 80 days or so….if you doubt that,  put a mA meter in lead..it will read 50—100 mA, all the time . Multiply by 80 days. 

 

Anyway, good discussions, food for thought, no hard and fast opinions to sell to others, just things I have learned the hard way, and use to avoid hassles. Started racing 392 hemi’s in 1960, off grid solar in 1980’s. No longer hassled by BS about batteries. But I sure was….

 

Related , back in 1960 some “pro” advised me to put a washer under oil pressure spring in the 392 oil pump .”raises oil pressure a lot”  Being young and impressed by the obviously greater mind, I did so. On start , it blew oil filter can up off block all the oil pumped out in 20 seconds around base gasket, engine seized, as I did not notice that at night under car with no exhaust hooked up yet. Busily revving engine. . Made me immune to BS of all flavors, a cheap lesson . “Question Authority” as we say in Boston. I can Laugh now. Almost

 

From: Bob Jasinski [mailto:rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 5:12 PM
To: 'John Grady'; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Group 27 Batteries

 

John,

 

I stand by my original post, and can back it up from printed material provided by battery manufacturers and engineers.  Also, battery state of charge (specific gravity) most definitely can be determined by reading the battery voltage across the posts with no load and when not connected to a charger.. Notice I  wrote "state of charge"  I did not write "battery capacity",  they are two different things.  A battery's cell open circuit voltage  = specific gravity  + 0.845.  So a 6 cell , 12 volt battery that is fully charged equals 1.260 specific gravity + 0.845 x 6= 12.63 volts across the posts. This is nominal because temperature affects the value as does S.G. variances cell to cell.

 

Self discharge is a fact for all lead acid batteries (actually all batteries to some extent).  This is why battery retailers must periodically provide freshening charges to the product in stock. Pure lead plates will have the lowest self discharge, but even they will self discharge given enough time.  Storage temperature plays a large role here too.

 

I'm not suggesting all battery maintainers are created equal or that they can be used across all types.  What I am stating is that if properly used, they will extend the life of a battery during long periods of non-use.  Once a battery discharges, water replaces the acid and sulfation begins to form, and if left long enough it will preclude the battery from accepting a charge.  I had this happen to good quality, two year old flooded group 27 in my 300G.  I let the car sit for almost 10 months during a house remodel and the battery would not take a charge.  Rather than just buy a new one, I decided to spike the electrolyte with hot acid (1.265 S.G.) by removing an equal amount of low gravity acid and replacing it with the hot stuff.  The battery now began to slowly take a charge,  As the specific gravity continued to rise, I pulled off some acid and replaced it with distilled water until the battery was fully charged and all the cells read about 1.250.  Got another 3 years out of it, can't do that with an AGM battery.  

 

I now use inexpensive maintainers on unused batteries in my truck, 300 and lawn tractor and check them periodically.  They work for me, and I do not see any appreciable water consumption as a result.  An alternative would be to just give the battery a periodic freshening charge, that works too, but I get busy and forget.  By the way, I do get my maintainers from Harbor freight, and I had my doubts too.

 

Bob J

Danville CA

 

 

 

From: John Grady [mailto:jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 11:06 AM
To: 'Bob Jasinski'; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Group 27 Batteries

 

Bob, I  agree with all except first paragraph. An external monitoring design using a battery voltage, or fixed trickle voltage ,  to decide anything about charging (as it must)  in passive storage has absolutely no way to know state of charge from that voltage. It does not change from half to full charge . see graph of your own batteries, voltage vs charge state. “the light goes on, but they dim when I try , and it will not start” –right? The light was nice and bright… . The only way and not easy,  is to charge it heavily or discharge it ,look up volts under certain draw etc. vs charge, or use hydrometer,  or track AH in and out, as solar people do (I have had stand alone solar for 30 years )  . Left on say 13.8 trickle overcharges it.=water use.  The problem is about the 1 volt no man’s land from sitting idle volts, 12.6 , and beginning to charge ? 13.2? That is variable temp dependent and somewhat unpredictable.

 

I developed a habit of watching headlights during crank, how much they dim tells you LOTS about battery. As it ages internal resistance goes up, volts drop more. If you see it dim way down, even if it starts ok, time for a new battery. But volts resting will still be perfect , charging system perfect.

 

Quite aside from opinions about it, the batteries DO go dry on maintainer trickle charger auto charger-- whatever. Reality check. I believed all the BS for years ,too. . And they do just fine left alone. Even 1% a day is 0.8 AH , in 100 days  80 AH would be dead. Does not happen .180 days later it starts right up, as Don relates, even 8 years old. Admittedly some charge has passed away, (normal , as you say) but not enough to prevent a ready,  positive cranking speed. ; I too have seen ten years with no devices and two years with fancy devices. Why I started looking into all this, it gets to be big $ buying 8 or 10 batteries every spring, after a winter on maintainers in long past years.  . Especially big MB one for 300CD diesel I had for 25 years with a built in maintainer, wired permanently to block heater. Never got more than three years. . And SL600  with the trunk floor ruined by acid overflow. 

 

Industrial installs are monitored carefully ,and cycled on load. The opposite example industrial thing is standby lighting. I own several large industrial buildings --all the gel cells ,100’s of them in emergency lamps die regularly, due to sitting at 14 + volts ; fire alarms too. I would note cynically that  battery companies like to sell batteries, must love  battery tenders, and float chargers. . ; SAE battery guy tries to explain how to make them last in cars. And they do. That book is “Batteries for Automotive Use”  by Reasbeck and Smith. Reasbeck , a PhD, is Chief Scientist and Director of R&D for Lucas. (yes , the prince of darkness! And warm beer ,due to Lucas refrigerators) . Book is quite good.

 

APC (American Power Conversion) the huge UPS company in RI, even goes so far as to make their big 4500 watt units so that only their physical size battery fits in it, about 8 ~ 27 size  batteries for 48V .The thing has never worked here, 3-4 x, on power out, red light says bad batteries, only a few years old. . I traced this to absurd 58 V float(14.5 v each )  ; I fixed that myself (no adjustment as designed ) and threw out their cases so I could use  wet cell batteries .APC lives on selling you batteries at 2x list,  of same AH wet cell, every two years.

 

Smile; can only lead to the water….!! Good discussion, in any event.

 

John Grady, current PE

 

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 'Bob Jasinski' rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 11:56 AM
To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Group 27 Batteries

 





There is a big difference between a battery charger and a battery maintainer.  All lead acid batteries lose some of their charge over time.  The rate is about 1/4 to 1% per day depending on what makes up the plate alloy, and the temperature in which it is stored.  Old style lead /antimony alloys are around 1%.  New calcium and other proprietary alloy mixes are less.  If a battery enters winter storage fully charged, and the car is stored in cold temperatures the rate is slowed by the cold temps.  Stored at a high temp will increase local action within the cells and will self discharge faster.  A good battery maintainer, with circuitry designed for the type of battery design; sealed AGM/ gel vs. flooded, will only MAINTAIN the state of charge to full.  It only puts in what is needed to offset the internal loss.  

 

The trick with VRLA (valve regulated lead acid) sealed batteries is to limit the charge voltage to just enough to charge the plate but not cause too much pressure buildup within the cell.  When that happens the valve releases and the battery gasses, losing water in the process, drying the battery out and killing it.  This is why flooded cell batteries are more durable, if they get overcharged and boil off water, it can be easily replaced.   VRLA batteries are also called recombinant cells.  That is, the hydrogen and oxygen recombine within the cell to form water again, that is why they don't need additional water as long as the recombinant design requirements are met.  Proper float voltage is an important part of that process.  

 

I have personally inspected dozens of stationary battery installations of lead acid storage batteries that are kept on charge 24/7 for 20 to 30 years. These are the same battery banks that back up large computer and telephone infrastructures to provide backup power should the AC fail.  Proper float voltage is critical to keep each cell at full charge while minimizing water consumption. The float voltage (maintenance voltage) is critical in these installations, and determined by the alloy type and content of the plate, as well as the specific gravity of the acid put in the cell when manufactured.  

 

 

Bob J

 

Past San Francisco Exide District Manager









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Posted by: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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