RE: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

["Jack Boyle" <jackcboyle@xxxxxxxxx>]

You would be surprised how many (not car people) thought that if their car ran hot and there was any possibility that the cause was a stuck t-stat, they would just run without it. The short circuit overheating from having no t-stat pertains to st 6 and st 8 cars with certain by-pass set up. (internal vs external) http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m42l343kocyoYmu_auimtAQ.jpg  and 

 

…”many of the 1950s water outlets have bypasses built into the housing. This is also true of most of the flathead 6 & 8 inline engines. If you plan to change to a different water outlet on these engines it is important to know what the bypass did and is changing to a non-bypass water outlet going to have an adverse effect. Bypasses are used on these engines mostly to keep from having hot spots in the cooling jacket as the engine comes up to temperature because the bypass recirculates the water in the engine. They are also used were the winter temperatures are very cold so the heater warms up faster. In addition some of the thermostats were constructed to work in conjunction with the water outlet’s bypass and use a different size Thermostat….”

 

…Jack

 

 

Jack Boyle

(913) 544 4650

 

Enjoying the same C-300 since 1967

And straight eight since 1973 

And straight six since 1979

 

 

 

 

From: John Grady [mailto:jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 3:35 PM
To: mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx; jackcboyle@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: retromobilia@xxxxxxxxxxx; tonysru2@xxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

 

That is right Marshall. But kind of off the wall..--- as who would ever run without one? Temp then would vary all over the place--- mostly cold as no control at all. Oil temp is inherently hotter than water, once engine is at operating temp but needs water to be at least xx degrees ( design block temp) to let it warm up enough  ; also to control running fits in bearings and pistons that change with temp .Why temp should be about constant. And warmup fast. 

 

Comment on water flow washers, meant as  a joke,  was a thing Smokey Yunick proclaimed to Chev guys who,  like rabbits,  started doing it as a magic answer….  to a problem that did not exist, unless you ran no thermostat. No thermostat or wide open thermostat (same) does not change what radiator can do-- which is where all the heat in water  has to go,  to get lost under high loads. A thermostat fully open ,(that is , some small # of degrees above its rated operating temp), is wide open and cooling flow is the same as no thermostat , if pump is ok; in either case,  if it still overheats , the radiator is not throwing the heat away. (=fan, radiator fins or scaled up core, air flow, retarded timing ,  etc) But overheating with no thermostat would only happen at the same high loads that also open a thermostat 100% ..NASCAR, long hill climb,  or something.

 

Getting more into this, Ford “thermosiphon” on model T is more sophisticated than it first looks..Henry was really good. The cooling is driven by temp difference top to bottom in block ; on a hot day that may be more degrees, it flows faster; on cold day it may stay colder in bottom of block , less flow is less cooling, also same thing with less HP out. .  Each pound of water holds a certain BTU, so cooling total heat loss is temp of water and flow rate multiplied ; why hotter water coming out in Yunick’s case does not mean it is taking out more heat ; rather less water is flowing ( washers hold flow back )  so it has to get hotter for carrying same BTU to lose,  caused by  loads on engine ,as the total quantity of heat in BTU HAS to be removed, or temp will keep climbing to make that happen, like a pot on stove . BTU you need to throw away is directly set by HP out/fuel burned. Thermosiphon works because hot water expands, is therefore  less dense than the colder water in radiator,  so the now lighter hot water rises in block and falls in radiator. ..without a pump. The more heat to be removed, the hotter it gets in block and the faster it goes around , while cold water in radiator ,compared to top, is more dense and falls to bottom faster too.. Happens in home hot water heater,  too.

 

Bypass (water flow  around , or near the  thermostat sensor part ) ensures water is circulated by pump in block with a closed thermostat, at cold start , or when thermostat cycles off on a cold day, so that temp sensing side of thermostat is bathed in moving water that reflects the actual block temp ; on MOPAR A block there is a short hose from block water/front of manifold , so water goes into pump , pushed back into block, when radiator circulation is closed or reduced by thermostat ;  JEEP 4.0 uses heater core (no heater temp water valve in heater core passages); water goes around   in block through heater even with thermostat closed tight. Sometimes people drill 1/8” -1/4” holes in flange to allow small amount of radiator flow too ;  sometimes done,  especially when no heater, on street rod 392 hemi, to be sure it moves some water around from the block,  to warm thermostat when it is closed, so it will open .

 

John

 

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 2:20 PM
To: jackcboyle@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: retromobilia@xxxxxxxxxxx; jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tonysru2@xxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

 

 

I've never seen a cooling system design that provided for a thermostat that somehow blocked, or at even restricted bypass coolant flow as the thermostat opens.  That said I'm unable to reason that it's possible for the engine temp to be higher without an installed thermostat than operating in the same condition with a thermostat.  Yes, I run all of my equipment with the appropriate thermostat to aid in fast warm-up and to prevent sustained operation at low operating temperatures.  Please note that most very old equipment especially tractors, old industrial engines, and even many old cars were never equipped with thermostats---probably one of the main reasons for much of the sludge buildup that we don't often see in the oil nowadays.

 

Marshall Goodknight



---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Jack Boyle" <jackcboyle@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "'retromobilia'" <retromobilia@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "'John Grady'" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "'Tony Bevacqua\\", \\ <file:///\\%22Charlie> "Charlie V\\" <cv300g@xxxxxxxxx>, \\ <file:///\\%22rinandal> "rinandal'" <tonysru2@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures
Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 12:31:33 -0500

 

In many early MOPAR coolant bypass designs mean running with no t-stat can cause the system to run hotter because of the routing of the coolant. ALWAYS RUN WITH A T-STAT!

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of retromobilia
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 11:07 AM
To: John Grady
Cc: Tony Bevacqua", "Charlie V" <cv300g@xxxxxxxxx>, "rinandal; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

'Cooling System 101'

John, You are mistaken about the thermostat. It is made to get the temperature above 180 degrees or whatever it's rating is (190 or 180) only (it does not perform any cooling function) [In fact if one were to remove the thermostat, the engine could run a very low temperature and harm the engine components.) 

Once the thermostat opens (when the water in the block reaches 180) it stays open, (unless the temperature dropped lower than 180 (like in sub freezing areas) and it will close to get it back up.) The purpose of the thermostat is to heat up the engine so that you do no damage stressing the cold components on initial driving. 

The system (cooling system complete with radiator) is designed to keep the engine at close to operating temperature of between 200 and 220 degrees (where the oil can perform its purpose lubricating and boiling off contaminants [venting them out or ingesting with pcv valve].) Oil can do its job up to about 250 degrees. The car with 200 degrees, which the requester asked about, is on the low side of operating temperature.

Please be careful giving information which may cause a novice more problems in the long run>

Sincerely,

John

PS: there are three major things which can cause a car radiator to 'boil over' in increasing order: Clogged radiator and/or sludge in the cooling system; faulty water pump; Incorrect timing. And then of course, a broken, stuck closed thermostat! 

PPS: Forgot the radiator cap; it is sealed to hold a specific pressure in the system which is calibrated to keep pressure at the engineering design level to avoid letting the water reaching a boil.

_____ 

From: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Tony Bevacqua" <tonysru2@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Charlie V" <cv300g@xxxxxxxxx>, "rinandal" <rinandvan@xxxxxxx>, chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2014 7:39:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

These are like gas gauges, very inaccurate and even if gauge is attempted to be calibrated ,unlike computer equipped cars, the analog sender end is not ; That said, these are often messed with, and may be way out , why JC can correct outliers ( any adjustment will be turned (John’s law, aka “golden screwdriver” ) and the gauges have two..do not touch them ,unless you know for sure what you are doing, and have correct test signal) ---only a real reading with infra red remote(probably best) or thermometer will tell you numerically about what the gauge is really telling you, no matter where on dial that is ; getting a conceptual data point just over 200 is good, as water thermostat will open and close to keep engine at its setting, 180 or 190; once it cannot do that (it is open all the time, cannot keep up with heat ) temp will go over 200-205, ---or more, on hot day, A/C on; that is what you need to know . Also a low pressure relief cap and overflow bottle (latter, if added) will become active , in the 220’s, telling you it is stressed ; with 180 or 190 (or 160!) thermostats, and all working, on a cool day , the pointer inside will point to that “in regulation” desired temp, once warmed up all the way.,.. a good quick way to tell when things are about right; a more upscale reading indicates it is over thermostat setting, which is somewhat normal when stressed, but if that happens on a cool day, or unexplained, problems coming .

I had some problems with correctly fitting relief caps on these cars, as a true relief cap needs to seal to outer/upper radiator lip as well as to inner radiator neck where spring pushes it down. Some of the originals have a sort of springy brass plate for upper /outer seal, as it is only to keep water from getting out at cap edge faster than drain tube open to ground can get rid of it ; with no or poor seal there , overflow bottle water will not get sucked back in by vacuum when cool. New caps with upper seal seem not to fit upper ring of OEM radiators quite right---doubt it was designed for those. Although they clip on OK. 

You can also see the following action on some cars; as it warms up it usually overshoots the stable point by 5% or so, and then comes back as thermostat opens and slug of cool water goes around ,the first time, then it goes back to stable point . A lot of info for you, in that action…..Or when climbing long hills. 

You can sort of get used to where it sits, that is your normal, why normal bar is long. If it starts going more, something is behind that, unless very hot day and/or A/C on. 

My .03…………..

john

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tony Bevacqua
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:05 AM
To: 'Charlie V'; 'rinandal'; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

FYI, I found my G having a VERY high read with no boiling nor overflow, etc., so Jeff Carter suggested that he send me a recently calibrated one to put in, which I did. I sent him mine and kept his because it brought the temps down to normal readings. You might consider this way, especially if you want the correct gauge for your year.

Tony

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charlie V
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 2:53 AM
To: rinandal; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

Hi Van,

I would say that in the middle is just right and over there on the side of " H " is too HOT.

But not necessarily so. On my 62 300 Sport Convertible the gauge is always on the " H " side. I installed another temp gauge and that show the engine running around 185 degrees.

Charlie Valentine

From: rinandal <rinandvan@xxxxxxx>
To: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:03 PM
Subject: [Chrysler300] temperature gauge actual temperatures

Hi all,
Heat just came on in southern CA. Which brings me to my question . On my 1964 K there are no numbers on the temperature gauge. So if all is stock and in good working order for the sake of this question: What temperature does the little "overheat" section on the right hand(hot) side of the gauge represent? 

Thanks,
Van

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