[Chrysler300] the great DOT5 debate-Please delete if not interested

["Bob Jasinski" <rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Herb,

 

You don’t like DOT5.  I get it.  Just understand that many other folks DO appreciate what DOT 5 offers, and have used it successfully for years, including me.  I have had it in my 300G since 1978 and have never had a problem.  I have had it in other cars and even done conversions back to DOT4 LMA in an MGB and have had no problems.  The requirement is that you MUST thoroughly flush the system.   In the case of the MGB I had to replace the soft lines and master cylinder anyways, plus the car was getting a lot of use, so I saw no benefit to keeping DOT5 in the system.

 

You said:

“Front end replacement body parts are getting harder to find now days”

 

What?  DOT5 attacks front end body parts?  I don’t think so.  Yes, it would be a good idea to replace the flex hoses and rebuild the wheel cylinders, but so what, they’re easy to find.

 

How about the damage DOT3/4 causes to the paint on your firewall when you overfill or spill a little on your fender or firewall?  How expensive is it to fix that?

 

Are you aware that it is recommended that DOT3/4 fluids be purged and replaced every TWO years, because it sits there sucking up moisture from the air when the car is not used.  More so in high humidity areas.  

 

DOT5 is a very good choice for a collector car.  It is very stable, has a high boiling point (good with our old drum brakes) is LOW maintenance, and DOESN”T damage paint.  Yes, you must be smart about using it, but I think anyone owning or restoring a Chrysler 300 Letter car in 2010 does their homework before deciding what fluids to use in their cars.

 

‘nuf said, I’m done.

 

Bob J

 

 

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:06 PM
To: 300 Club International
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] DOT Choice

 

  

Up to you, I am not trying to get anyone to change back, just letting you
know the ramifications of changing over! Again just my two cents worth. 
Front end replacement body parts are getting harder to find now days! Your
problem is you CAN NOT go back, unless you flush and replace every silicone
contaminated rubber and plastic component in your brake system. I was just
trying to help the other members before they made the same mistake you did,
the damage is done leave it! It is imperative that you do not commingle the
two fluids. You should mark your master cylinder as containing DOT 5 for
safety and future reference to future owners. 




-------Original Message------- 

From: George McKovich 
Date: 10/14/2010 9:26:44 PM 
To: Intl 300 
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] DOT Choice 


All I had to hear was "I worked for the government" to convince me to stay
with dot5. 

George 

Sent from my iPhone 4 

On Oct 14, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:zephyr9900%40hotmail.com> > wrote: 

> With all the talk about brakes and fluids, All I can say is your looking
for 
> trouble with DOT 5. Once you change over you cant go back unless you 
> replace EVERY rubber part in your brake system. Dot 4 does every thing DOT 
> 5 does except contaminate the system with silicone, unless you live on the 
> north or south pole, or are running a dedicated race car, DON'T DO IT. 
> Extreme and I mean Extreme heat or cold conditions are all that I can 
> justify the use of DOT 5. I worked for the government and converted 
> hundreds of vehicles over to DOT 5, that experience is the reason I wont
do 
> it to my cars. We kept consistently busy fixing DOT 5 related brake 
> problems. The only reason they do change to DOT 5 is any vehicle can 
> potentially go to any place in the world at any time, or that is the logic 
> in the manual. I know, I know DOT 5 wont absorb moisture, that is correct 
> but were does the moisture go??? O ya water is heaver than DOT 5, down to 
> the bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers to stay, and that is why
they 
> start leaking from the corrosion on the sealing serfaces. If you
completely 
> purge or bleed your brake system every 30,000 or 35,000 like your supposed 
> to, you will never have corrosion problems with DOT 3 or 4 because the 
> moisture that is absorbed by the DOT 3 is gone when you do a system bleed.

> Problem is no one ever purges the system, out of sight out of mind until
you 
> have brake problems, Same with Transmissions, no one changes fluid &
filter 
> or thinks about it till a problem arises and by then it's tooooo late. O
Ya 
> when you bleed DOT 5 were does the moisture go? OOps, it is still at the 
> bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers because it is not absorbed and
is 
> heaver than DOT 5!! That said this is not an overnight problem with any 
> brake fluid, most of our cars are forty five years old or older and the 
> brake problems are just showing up. Actually I think the moisture that is 
> absorbed, is really a good thing if you service your system on a regular 
> basis. That is why I invested in a power bleeder, about every five or six 
> years I purge the systems on my cars and never have any problems other
than 
> replacing shoes or pads. Here is an article that is good information. This 
> is just my $00.02 worth from experience, and I know everyone has a 
> conflicting opinion, this is just mine. 
> 
> 
> Battle of the DOTs 
> DOT 3-4 Verses DOT 5. Which brake fluid should I use? 
> "With regards to the DOT 3-4 verses DOT 5 brake fluid controversy, here is 
> an article sent to me by Mr. Steve Wall. It is one of the most
professional 
> treatments I have seen on the subject". 
> [I had to condense this article from 6 pages to 1 due to space limitations

> Brake Fluid Facts 
> By Steve Wall 
> As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major automotive brake 
> system supplier, I feel both qualified and obligated to inject some
material 
> science facts into the murky debate about DOT 5 verses DOT 3-4 brake
fluids. 
> The important technical issues governing the use of a particular 
> specification brake fluid are as follows: 
> 1. Fluid compatibility with the brake system rubber, plastic and metal 
> components. 
> 2. Water absorption and corrosion. 
> 3. Fluid boiling point and other physical characteristics. 
> 4. Brake system contamination and sludging. 
> Additionally, some technical comments will be made about the new brake
fluid 
> formulations appearing on the scene. 
> First of all, it's important to understand the chemical nature of brake 
> fluid. DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and glycol ethers. DOT 4 
> contains borate esters in addition to what is contained in DOT 3. These 
> brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze (ethylene 
> glycol) and are not, as Dr. Curve implies, a petroleum fluid. DOT 5 is 
> silicone chemistry. 
> Fluid Compatibility 
> Brake system materials must be compatible with the system fluid. 
> Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of advertising, 
> wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of chemical 
> compatibility. Both DOT 3-4 and DOT 5 fluids are compatible with most
brake 
> system materials except in the case some silicone rubber external
components 
> such as caliper piston boots, which are attacked by silicon fluids and 
> greases. 
> Water absorption and corrosion 
> The big bugaboo with DOT 3-4 fluids always cited by silicone fluid
advocates 
> is water absorption. DOT 3-4 glycol based fluids, just like ethylene
glycol 
> antifreezes, are readily miscible with water. Long term brake system water 
> content tends to reach a maximum of about 3%, which is readily handled by 
> the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid formulation. Since the 
> inhibitors are gradually depleted as they do their job, glycol brake fluid

> just like anti-freeze, needs to be changed periodically. Follow BMW's 
> recommendations. DOT 5 fluids, not being water miscible, must rely on the 
> silicone (with some corrosion inhibitors) as a barrier film to control 
> corrosion. Water is not absorbed by silicone as in the case of DOT 3-4 
> fluids, and will remain as a separate globule sinking to the lowest point
in 
> the brake system, since it is more dense. 
> Fluid boiling point 
> DOT 4 glycol based fluid has a higher boiling point (446F) than DOT 3
(401F) 
> and both fluids will exhibit a reduced boiling point as water content 
> increases. DOT 5 in its pure state offers a higher boiling point (500F) 
> however if water got into the system, and a big globule found its way into
a 
> caliper, the water would start to boil at 212F causing a vapor lock 
> condition [possible brake failure -Ed.]. By contrast, DOT 3 fluid with 3% 
> water content would still exhibit a boiling point of 300F. Silicone fluids 
> also exhibit a 3 times greater propensity to dissolve air and other gasses 
> which can lead to a "spongy pedal" and reduced braking at high altitudes. 
> DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluids are mutually compatible, the major disadvantage of 
> such a mix being a lowered boiling point. In an emergency, it'll do. 
> Silicone fluid will not mix, but will float on top. From a lubricity 
> standpoint, neither fluids are outstanding, though silicones will exhibit
a 
> more stable viscosity index in extreme temperatures, which is why the US 
> Army likes silicone fluids. Since few of us ride at temperatures very much 
> below freezing, let alone at 40 below zero, silicone's low temperature 
> advantage won't be apparent. Neither fluids will reduce stopping distances

> With the advent of ABS systems, the limitations of existing brake fluids 
> have been recognized and the brake fluid manufacturers have been working
on 
> formulations with enhanced properties. However, the chosen direction has
not 
> been silicone. The only major user of silicone is the US Army. It has 
> recently asked the SAE about a procedure for converting from silicon back
to 
> DOT 3-4. If they ever decide to switch, silicone brake fluid will go the
way 
> of leaded gas. 
> Brake system contamination 
> The single most common brake system failure caused by a contaminant is 
> swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due to the 
> introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power steering fluid, 
> mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major damage. Flushing
with 
> mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system failure in a short
time 
> I suspect this is what has happened when some BMW owners changed to DOT 5 
> (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem). Flushing with alcohol 
> also causes problems. BMW brake systems should be flushed only with DOT 3
or 
> 4. 
> If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the silicone will 
> latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component deterioration and 
> create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and eventually
plug 
> up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have already
changed 
> to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change back. Silicone is 
> very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of your system.
Just 
> change the fluid regularly. For those who race using silicone fluid, I 
> recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each racing session to 
> insure that there is no water in the calipers. 
> New developments 
> Since DOT 4 fluids were developed, it was recognized that borate ester
based 
> fluids offered the potential for boiling points beyond the 446F
requirement, 
> thus came the Super DOT 4 fluids - some covered by the DOT 5.1 designation
- 
> which exhibit a minimum dry boiling point of 500F (same as silicone, but 
> different chemistry). 
> Additionally, a new fluid type based on silicon ester chemistry (not the 
> same as silicon) has been developed that exhibits a minimum dry boiling 
> point of 590F. It is miscible with DOT 3-4 fluids but has yet to see 
> commercial usage. 
> 
> 
> 
>                
> Herb 
> 
> 1956 Plymouth Belvedere 361 4-Sale 
> 1959 Coronet 326 Poly 
> 1961 Belvedere Custom Suburban 318 Poly 
> 1962 Dodge Dart 225 Slant Six 4-Sale 
> 1963 Fury 2D/HT 6.1L 
> 1963 Sport Fury Convertible 361 
> 1970 Chrysler 300 Hurst 440 
> 1999 Durango SLT 5.9L 
> 2008 SRT-8 Magnum 6.1L 
> St. Louis, MO. 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
> 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

To send a message to this group, send an email to:
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or
go to http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/join and select the "Leave Group" button

For list server instructions, go to http://www.chrysler300club.com/yahoolist/inst.htm

For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylangYahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    Chrysler300-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Chrysler300-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Chrysler300-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/