OK, All You Guys..... You have gotten me so confused that I think it only fair that one of you with an appropriate car go through the list and systematically test with each set of suggestions, then report back to the group! And of course, I would LOVE to see the bowtie UNTIED!!!! Good Luck to the participants, I wish I could be there to watch! Joe Savard Lake Orion, MI [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]