Re: {Chrysler 300} 300K Ram Brake Problems, air in brakes generally

the master bleeding regimen is heeded by every ASC mechanic I know and respect and is gospel, not as gospel. Though you may find success doing it your way I would advise against telling others not to do this job the way mechanics, automotive engineers and brake component suppliers insist it should be done.

There is no risk in bench bleeding other than an extra step in time. But there is a risk in not bench bleeding, one that many a hobbyist knows, that a good pedal is illusive or worse.

-----Original Message-----
From: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2022 9:57am
To: "dplotkin" <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Mike Cortel" <toy72456@xxxxxxxxx>, "Chrysler 300 Club International" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 300K Ram Brake Problems, air in brakes generally

You know This bleed the master stuff is repeated over and over as Gospel by people who read it somewhere .

Look at it — and tell me how air is “ trapped” in there when you have 100- 1000 psi pushing it to the obvious vent holes and then into the reservoir at the end of travel . The vents are on top of the bore (!!!!) .

Also also how fluid gets replenished, same holes . It acts as a pump , but it vents out top of bore at end of stroke.

Just like saying “air is trapped in a soda bottle as you fill it “.

Further , it is designed (!) to feed air up and out in the tiniest of volumes , when engineers made the thing . You ever look inside when you release brakes ? It shoots up like a geyser through the vent with return pressure as shoes move away .

In fact I think that action of the reverse flushing flow as shoes retract forces out any local air far better than any thing you can do playing on a bench .

And then you take off your bench bleed pipes and move it open ports to car ? Welcome in , air ! Fiasco in my opinion , do it if you want . Kind of like a rain dance . I never have , I believe what I can see , and I can see how it works inside —not a story on line .

However ,and related , sometimes you see loops or circles of brake tubing at the master in a vertical plane or an incidental upward U in tubing runs . Especially over rear axle . It is good to “ crack” that rear splice fitting open while under low pressure bleeding . That upward loop shape obviously can hold a stubborn air pocket Especially the vertical plane MC loops . About ten years ago I started putting the loops in a horizontal upward spiral if any loops at all . So air will naturally move up into the master and out , like any hydraulic system .

All this observation came from fighting with very early use (personally ) of silicone —- I put silicone so my wheel cylinders do not rust at the bottom like all 300 in storage will do with non silicone ( glycol ). That rust pit leads to a big surprise one day . I had that big surprise way back , as the wheel cylinder lip seal will transverse a rust pit one day . Out goes the brake fluid.

Or else change the gylcol completely every three years , as MB requires ( keep record of that) I Learned a 2000$ lesson thinking I knew better on a MB 300D way back , did not change it for 6 years , totaled all the antilock parts and rear wheel cylinders with rust pits inside , —as glycol aggressively holds water by design* .

If you don't drain it , it reaches a solution saturation level in the glycol sooner or later and then precipitates out as water in lowest place , All this is not arguable at all , but some will still argue . Can’t help that . Military uses silicone in everything as it is stored for years , and , re: boiling point , I am not racing my 300 , but I am storing it over the winter , where temp changes and barometric changes readily cause exchange of moisture laden air in the master . Water in the glycol boils at 212, too . Long before any glycol will boil. So high boiling point is irrelevant in our cars.

Also a very good reason for requiring an excellent seal situation on the master cover , why later ones are carefully sealed in rubber with a bail , with an expansion dome / bellows on top . Not a screw through a hole in cover , like our cars .

Just sayin…

Best , John

*I think why glycol was used , day one — instead of say hydraulic fluid or atf etc , —-but implies periodic service to remove the dispersed entrapped water . It is not oil.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 11, 2022, at 9:01 AM, dplotkin <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Mike, a master is never shipped bled. You must bench bleed a master, failure to do so can make achieving a good pedal very difficult. Before I got sidetracked on residual valves I would confirm no air.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------

From: 'Mike Cortel' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: 5/10/22 1:46 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: Dan Plotkin <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Cc: 'Chrysler 300 Club International' <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 300K Ram Brake Problems

Thanks, Dan, No warnings from the rebuilder. They did tell me that the MC had already been bled so I just installed it. I did order a Motive Bleeder system today.

Mike Cortel

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022, 10:54:07 AM EDT, Dan Plotkin <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Use an compressed air powered power bleeder. Remember that you should never over-stroke a master, easy to do while bleeding by foot, easy to blow the seal. Did the rebuilder give any warnings? Over-stroke a Treadle-Vac and its done. Did you bench bleed the masters before mounting? You can prove the master is good or bad by bleeding it & plugging it with the plastic plug they shipped it back with. If pedal sinks the master seal is blown. Otherwise I think you still have air in there.

Danny Plotkin

From: 'John W Sager' via Chrysler 300 Club International [mailto:chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2022 10:21 AM
To: CAROLL RIPLEY <ripinator@xxxxxxxxxxx>; John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Mike Cortel <toy72456@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 300K Ram Brake Problems

Rip, I bought one of these a few years ago and it's been one of my better investments. Just use a c-clamp to hold the top onto the master rather than their Mickey Mouse chain setup.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CJ5DY16/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

John

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022, 08:45:25 AM EDT, 'Mike Cortel' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks, John, Yes I do agree that having a second person at the pedal isn't the best method. We have had a few words ourselves :)

I believe I am going to look into a pressure bleeder as the first step. I have heard that the truck repair shops can be very familiar with this type of booster but Power Brake Exchange was a recommendation and at the time I was traveling to Pittsburgh for work.

Mike Cortel

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022, 07:52:58 AM EDT, John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi , it may sound crazy but having your wife in a tough position ( correctly using pedal ) can be part of it ! Been there , led to a , er, “heated discussion” . Long ago but still —-

Have to really understand the goal .

It is almost human nature to let up on the pedal a bit after doing what you say , after pushing smoothly down it can draw fluid or air back in —if timing of you at wheel cylinder drain valve and her at pedal is at all off.

Don’t laugh , happened to me.

In my case , add in silicone fluid a bear to bleed in the first place , if it gets agitated in the catch bottle or before you pour in you are done for .

I also agree — lacking any leaks ,— if pedal goes slowly down your master is not good. However on J,K you essentially have two masters .

They are a bear if booster not built right

. Competence matters . I tried myself with a kit , failed to get it right , someone had been in before me and I put it back together same way replicating a mistake they made .

The solution was discovering that these are common ( larger size vacuum can) on medium straight trucks . You can see them mounted on frame rail like gas tank .

A truck repair place knows all about them , in my case it was an International dealer. Put it in snd it worked fine after third try . I always had misgivings about those , but trucks by the millions use them .

Hope this helps ,

J

Sent from my iPhone

On May 10, 2022, at 5:03 AM, 'CAROLL RIPLEY' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Mike:

In my entire experience, whenever the brake pedal slowly goes to the floor - after bleeding, etc, - it has always been a bad master cylinder. I don't know how old your m/c is or if it's been rebuilt, but if you can try another master cylinder. that may lead you to a resolution.

Also, the bleeding procedure you describe seems strange to me, but if the manual says to do it that way, then I guess that is OK. Generally, bleeding of the brake system always started with the farthest wheel cylinder (RR) and then the next farthest (LR. RF and finally LF). I do not understand why a 64 K should be different.

All the best,

Rip

On Monday, May 9, 2022, 02:21:46 PM EDT, 'Mike Cortel' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

The bleeding was being done manually with my wife at the pedal and followed the order based on the service manual posted below. I did consider getting a Power Bleeder but again got frustrated and just parked the car. Any recommendations for a power bleeder? Thanks for the reply

<1652120456795blob.jpg>

Mike Cortel

On Monday, May 9, 2022, 01:20:57 PM EDT, dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Mike-

How are you bleeding? Manual with a friend on the pedal? Gravity? Power bleeder?

You have two circuits and need to rule out which one is the problem. I believe air is the problem and you want to know if its in the master or slave circuit.

Danny Plotkin

-----Original Message-----
From: "'Mike Cortel' via Chrysler 300 Club International" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 12:47pm
To: "chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: {Chrysler 300} 300K Ram Brake Problems

Hi to all

A little background. Approx 2 years ago I was having leakage at the master cylinder and the brakes felt weak. I figured it was time for a rebuild. I removed both the master cylinder, the remote brake booster, and the slave cylinder and took them to Power Brake Exchange in Pittsburgh for rebuilding. They did find a broken spring in the remote booster and were able to replace it as well as the additional seals and such. They provided a test report and it showed the booster providing 300 psi? (I can not find the paperwork at this time but I believe that was the number.) I got everything back home and got back together. I also replaced the front wheel cylinders, shoes, and front hoses. Also, replace the vacuum line from the intake to the booster with the correct type of hose. I followed the service manual for the bleeding order of the system more than once.

Here is the problem. I have brakes when the car first starts up. But after a couple of stops, the brake pedal starts bottoming out and the brakes do not hold. I was so frustrated and fed up that I just put the car away.

In the meantime, I have become a cancer patient and I would really like to get this fixed and possibly enjoy the car this spring/ summer while I can.

I have considered taking the car to the local Chrysler dealer whose ownership is into Mopar Muscle as I am not sure how much I can still do.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated as well as any shops in Ohio that may be able to work on this.

Thanks in advance

Mike Cortel

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