Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
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Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
- From: Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 19:35:54 -0700
Hey guys-here is the note I had earlier from Koni. If anyone has the dimensional data, perhaps from an old shock, it would sure be a huge help. I just sent him the KYB number we're using for the front, but that must not be enough.
John Spiers, if we can get the dimensional data do you want to pick up this interface with Lee Grimes before I cause mass confusion?
"Michael,
Since this is a vehicle for which nothing has been made in a very, very long time (I have been here 15+ years and don't recall it), I would not be very optimistic that this is very doable at all regardless of the number of units ordered. It will for sure require a pretty sizable amount of engineering time to effectively make a new part up from scratch (new drawings, R&D, etc.) which is very hard if not impossible to amortize across just 100 pieces each of a front and rear part number and still make it market viable.
Since it will most likely be a relatively basic traditional non-spring perch shock absorber front and rear with either a pin or eye mount at either or both ends, this is potentially more viable than a modern strut damper with more complicated attachments and expensive spring perches, sway bar brackets, etc..
Although there is far more as yet unknown than known about these dampers, I can only make a WAG at per unit pricing. If they are truly basic units as I am guessing, in that limited volume I am going to guess that a wholesale price would be between $80-120 each. Again, that number could go up or down (but probably not too much lower) once we have more known info.
Certainly increasing the volume potential would help as well. This is based on it being a traditional KONI rebound damping adjustable twin tube low pressure gas damper. We do have a line of much lower priced non-adjustable products but the minimum numbers may be more like 400-500 of each to work.
If you could share (fax or email) some dimensional information on a drawing showing max extended and min. compressed lengths along with the attachment types and dimensions, maybe we could get lucky and find that there is something already in the current application list that is close enough to use as-is or as a current manufactured baseline to build from. I guess the first step would be to get dimensions and go from there.
Unfortunately this is very likely to be a dead end project due to manufacturing issues and costs but it doesn't hurt to look into it given some time. KONI is usually by far the most volume flexible of the major shock absorber manufacturers but as time progresses even we are more and more limited on the custom and low volume projects that are feasible.
BTW, I actually own an old sports car "special" built on an early '50s Dodge/Chrysler ladder frame that still uses the suspension, axles and drum brakes from the donor car. It was built as a drag car in the early '60s with a Chevy engine and transmission and a Devin fiberglass body on top. It was a regular "junkyard dog" special back in its day. I hope to start the frame up restoration in the next year or two. Are things like suspension bushings and brake parts still around and available for these old cars?
Best regards,
Lee Grimes
KONI North America
On Jul 30, 2011, at 6:44 PM, John wrote:
> John B -
>
> No problem. I have 100% faith in the Koni product, with my personal experience, and especially after reading the various experiences of 300 Club members here with other makes. The KYBs are very good, but the Konis I believe are excellent. Some of us spend $800-$1000 on a set of modern wide-whitewall radial tires, which significantly upgrades the ride comfort and handling of our 300s. Yet they are unlikely spend more than $60 on a set of shock absorbers that will add another quantum leap in improvement in the same criteria. It remains to be seen what the cost would be from Koni, or even if they will manufacture them for us - or even if we get the minimum of 50 sets originally stated by US-Koni - I think we're up to about 17-18 sets so far, pretty good considering there is not yet interest from anyone other than Chrysler 300 Club Int'l members.
>
> I think that if Koni cannot or will not re-manufacture the original part numbers, I will see if there is a physical fit, and as with the KYBs, they will not have the blessing of the manufacturer for the Chrysler application. But they are adjustable, so if there is a shock that fits, and it is for a lighter car (and that is probable) we might have to adjust them to a firmer or the firmest setting to get the desired result. Adjusting them is an easy process: Compress the shock until a pair of teeth engage from top to bottom of the shock, and rotate clockwise/counterclockwise to stiffen/soften the action of the unit. And this can be also done to compensate for wear. My long-gone 1962 Morgan still had a 1/2-turn left in adjustment with the 1964-manufactured Konis. If I recall correctly, out of the box, they have 4-5 full turns of adjustment either firmer or softer.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Spiers
>
> ________________________________
> From: john begian <r2gthawk@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: John <spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
>
> HI,
>
> I would be interested in a set also, for my G ragtop.
>
> Thanks for your help in moving this project along!
>
> John Begian
> Saline, MI
>
> ________________________________
> From: John <spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: Ronald Kurtz <mark6268@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Chrysler 300 Club Intl <chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 11:51:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
>
>
> The total count thus far is about 16 sets. Absolutely no hint from US-Koni as to the price has been provided.
>
> A buddy in one of the Christine clubs ('57, '58 Plymouths) send out an email to his club's listserver members, no response so far.
>
> The Koni rep has not said anything, other than a total of 50 sets would be needed to start production, and also that depends upon the availability of component parts. He said some of the components may be out of production, which is the same news received by a club member with a contact inside Koni. Koni has not responded yet to my email late last week about making a run of fewer sets.
>
> John Spiers
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ronald Kurtz <mark6268@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: John <spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 11:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
>
> Hi, John:
>
> I'd like to get front and rear shocks for my E, Please count me in.
>
> Best,
> Ron Kurtz
> E# 292
>
> ________________________________
> From: John <spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx>
> Cc: christopher beilby <thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx>; alumcantandthd@xxxxxxx; l-forwardlook@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 63-64chryslers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tue, July 26, 2011 12:33:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
>
>
> I sure can ask now!
>
> Preferably, I'd rather wait and see if there's some more interest here - and I
> repeat - to anyone who is on the 59SportFury.net board - the Imperial Club - or
> the WPC Club - or any related organization, to see how much interest we can pick
> up. I'd rather approach Koni with "all
> guns blazing" with a significant
> interest, rather than going off half-cocked. Help, please!
>
> At least then, we could see at what price point Koni would be.
>
> John
>
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx>
> To: John <spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: christopher beilby <thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx>; alumcantandthd@xxxxxxx;
> l-forwardlook@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> 63-64chryslers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tue, July 26, 2011 12:13:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
>
> Hmm.
> John,
> Do you think its unreasonable to say something to them like
> like:
>
> "It's a little difficult to measure the interest in something people don't know
> the cost of. Could you give me a budgetary price for x pieces (25 sets?) of
> front shocks for these cars? Some people may be willing to buy multiple sets to
> make up the volume, but they need to know about a range of how much they cost".
> I certainly understand not wanting to
> exercise Koni, but its a chicken and egg
> sort of thing. If the price of 50 sets was low, you'd sell out immediately. If
> too high---well, we'd know that too pretty soon.
>
> Mike Moore
>
> .
>
> On Jul 26, 2011, at 8:12 AM, John wrote:
>
> There is no price. I wouldn't even ask unless we had enough interest.
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx>
> >To: christopher beilby <thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Cc: spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; alumcantandthd@xxxxxxx; l-forwardlook@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 63-64chryslers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >Sent: Tue, July 26, 2011 11:07:24 AM
> >Subject: Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
> >
> >Have they said what the price would be in a lot of 50 pieces?
> >Mike Moore
> >300H
> >
> >On Jul 26, 2011, at 7:53 AM, christopher beilby wrote:
> >
> >Can I suggest that for an easier start/option, that you just
> look at getting
> >orders for front shocks - if so I would take two sets if the price not much more
> >than a $100 a shock.
> >>
> >>Konis are brilliant on the front of a car that needs good control. I have maybe
> >>3 good original 300C factory fitted shocks, they currently not on my 300Cs. I
> >>have put a pair of KYBs on my driver 300C, but they still do not feel as good as
> >>they could, nor maybe better than the original 300C front shocks that I
> removed.
> >>
> >>My mother had new a late 50s big block Ford Ranchwagon, and we lived up bush at
> >>the time. The factory shocks lasted only around 15k miles on aussie country bush
> >>bitumen roads/tracks, this in then 70-80 mph everyday cruise speeds.
> >>And the front felt just like 300Cs with KYBS - not out of control, but a bit
> >>sloppy over dips etc. I fitted Konis, and boy what a car it made of it -
> now
> >>cruised everywhere at 80-90 mph on good radials. And so I put them on the rear
> >>of another newer aussie Ford V8, a hotted up one that was good for 125+ mph,
> >>quarter mile in around 14 secs. And in the next few years, I did 180,000 fast
> >>miles in that car, over 120k of those I worked out recently at over 100mph
> >>cruise speeds. (A cop pulled me up once, said he had tailed me from about 1-2
> >>miles behind for last 15 miles - told me he
> clocked my speed never below 108mph,
> >>and up to 115mph, but after bouncing car to check shocks and seeing top quality
> >>high speed radails, said it perfectly safe, just don't do it when cops were
> >>around!!) And when I removed the shocks, they were still like new re
> >>axction/reaction, despite the steel casings near shotblasted/dinted to
> >>hell/nothing, by untold 100+mph stones/grit etc, never mind they
> often buried in
> >>dust/mud.
> >>
> >>Owners of 300s that are trailer queens do not bother with Konis - but everyone
> >>else, if Konis can make a shock to suit our 300s, especially the needy 300
> >>front, it will put the biggest country and town smiles on our/your faces, it
> >>will make the car 30-50% more fun/safer.
> >>I have Konis on my old early 70s Lamborghini, rear of my BM 6 series coupe, and
> >>recently I have discovered '77/78
> TBirds - the ones with 400s and C6 autos - and
> >>all those combo ones lack to be a real fun driver's/punter car is better/right
> >>shocks, and if Koni make a not too dear one for them, at least 2 of the 4 of
> >>them will get them as I can afford. A good driver performance car can be made
> >>into a magic drivers/fun car with Konis - boring, more lackluster cars, will
> >>gain little from them
> though.
> >>
> >>Get those 300 order numbers any way you/we can, you will not be disappointed.
> >>Hemi and crossram 300s were just made for Konis to make them even better fun. Go
> >>for Koni fronts first, this cheaper than all 4 at once, and if we can, then go
> >>for the rears as well later.
> >>
> >>my two bobs worth - backed by owning/driving over 100 cars from many
> >>makers/countries - and my heavy right foot is still younger than my
> >>brain/commonsense.
> >>Christopher in Australia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ________________________________
> To: mmoore8425@xxxxxxx
> >>CC: alumcantandthd@xxxxxxx; l-forwardlook@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 63-64chryslers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>
> >>From: spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:01:30 -0700
> >>Subject: Re: [FWDLK] [Chrysler300] Shocks - Koni
> >>
> >>
> >>Hi Mike -
> >>
> >>I included you and your 300Hs in the "4-1/2" count of possible buyers for
> >these
> >>Koni shocks.
> >>
> >>I think there is not
> enough interest worldwide - so far it's me, you, another
> >>person from the 300 Club Int'l, and possibly Rick from the Forwardlook list
> >>(who
> >>didn't say how many). So, I have not asked the Koni rep anything further than
> >>the initial availability question below - right now, there is no pricing and
> >no
> >>consideration to place these back into production..
> >>
> >>The low interest in these shocks may just be the nature of the owner of these
> >>cars -
> most drivers of these cars take them out on slow Sunday drives, and
> >have
> >>had them for many years, when there were nice runners available for four
> >weeks'
> >>pay. In 2011, for many folks, paying more than a modest dinner for two out on
> >>the town for a set of four shocks is considered excessive - and is reflected
> >by
> >>the near-zero interest this is generating
> here.
> >>
> >>Myself, I get out in the cut & thrust of I-95 in South Florida and have to
> >>out-maneuver the media-estimated 30% of drivers who have NO car insurance at
> >>all. The added control afforded by the $130-$140 KYBs have saved my butt on
> >>many
> >>occasions - but there's room for improvement. I consider the KYBs good
> >>insurance, and for a one-time purchase, an excellent investment. And the car
> >is
> >>more pleasant and fun to drive - I can only
> imagine what the Konis would be
> >>like. I would surely never go back to the stock-type shock absorber, ever.
> >>
> >>I am copying this discussion over onto the Forwardlook list, and I welcome
> >>anyone to bring it to the 1959 Plymouth list, the Christine clubs, or any
> >other
> >>related Mopar auto
> forum.
> >>
> >>John
> >>
> >>________________________________
> >>
> >>John,
> >>I wonder what price range they are considering.
> >>
> >>I paid $800 per car set for my Jaguars (6 shocks) .
> >>They made such a terrific difference that I would be willing to buy 2 sets if
> >>necessary. If they're thinking $100 each, I wonder how it would change if we
> >>thought in terms of $200 each.
> >>
> >>I would gladly pay $800 for a set of Koni shocks designed by Koni for my car.
> >>I also wonder just where all
> the same shocks (as ours) were used originally,
> >>and hopw many of those folks we could interest.
> >>Mike Moore
> >>
> >>On Jul 25, 2011, at 9:13 PM, John wrote:
> >>
> >>> CanMan & All!
> >>>
> >>> I sent the email below to see if there is any interest in Koni shocks
> for
> >our
> >>> 1957-1964 Mopars.
> >>>
> >>> So far, not including ole CanMan, I have heard interest in the Koni shocks
> >>> totaling four and a half car sets. Only 45.5 sets to go!!
> >>>
> >>> The Koni US factory representative said fifty CAR SETS would be the minimum
> >>> amount required to have the factory in Holland make a production run.
> >>>
> >>> Konis are an adjustable, super-premium shock at a super-premium price, used
> >>on
> >>
> >>> many expensive high-speed European
> sports cars because of their superior
> >>>control
> >>>
> >>> characteristics - a car set of four shocks for many cars often runs $600 or
> >>> more. I know it is nearly impossible to convince someone who is used to
> >>paying
> >>
> >>> $15/each for shocks that one could
> be worth 10x the price. Heck, even the
> >>>KYBs,
> >>>
> >>> which I like very much and have on a couple of my early 60s Mopars and
> other
> >>> cars, are beyond the pale for many at $30-$40 each - and they are
> well-worth
> >>>the
> >>>
> >>> price in improved handling. I find it a little irritating that the KYBs are
> >>> made in the Far East, though, but they have proven to be a long-lasting,
> >>> well-made product. At least the Konis are made in Holland.
> >>>
> >>> To tell the story in
> more detail, I've only had Koni shocks on one car, a
> >>1962
> >>
> >>> Morgan Plus/4. When I got the car in 1980, with well over 100,000 miles on
> >>it,
> >>>I
> >>>
> >>> ordered Konis right away. Much to my surprise, when I cleaned off the
> >surface
> >>> rust on the old shocks, they too were Konis, with a 1964 date of manufacture
> >>>on
> >>>
> >>> them! The new ones I installed hardly made a difference, and the old ones
> >>>still
> >>>
> >>> had one more "click" of adjustment left on them to stiffen up the rebound
> >>> action, even being 16 years old at the time. I was impressed, and drove
> that
> >>> car 65,000 miles in my ownership, with never a concern about shocks.
> >>>
> >>> One thing that just came to mind - There are US manufacturers that are
> >making
> >>> high-performance shocks for the likes of Camaros, Mustangs, etc., - I wonder
> >>>if
> >>>
> >>> any of them would take a look at a set of KYBs as an example, and come up
> >>with
> >>>a
> >>>
> >>> shock for us? Maybe
> there's a close fit that can be adapted - I'm messing
> >>> around with a '72 Pinto wagon (who knows why?!), and installed KYBs all
> >>around
> >>>-
> >>>
> >>> I had read, and since confirmed, that 1980s Camaro rear shocks fit and work
> >>>very
> >>>
> >>> well on the rear of the Pinto.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers.
> >>>
> >>> John Spiers
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>
> >>>
> >>> How many do you have signed up, to get a set?
> >>>
> >>> How soon is this gonna happen?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>----------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> To continue forward with this discussion about shock absorbers at the 300
> >>Club
> >>
> >>> listserver:
> >>>
> >>> Koni once made front and rear shocks to fit our cars.
> >>>
> >>> I recall having read a thread on the Imperial Club's website. I found it,
> >and
> >>> here it is, complete with misspellings:
> >>>
> >>> Tip from Philippe:
> >>> Just a little story about shock absorbers, I think that it could help you
> >and
> >>> the Imperial owners. Last year I bought a 57 wrecked Crown (no glasses,
> rust
> >>> everywhere, transmission « out »). This car was neglected since
> 1966 so all
> >>>the
> >>>
> >>> parts on it were never replaced with aftermarket parts ! Except one thing :
> >>>the
> >>>
> >>> shock absorbers! Maybe the original « Oriflow » weren't as strong as
> >Chrysler
> >>> said! I was very surprised
> when I removed the shocks : they aren't « made
> in
> >>> Brazil or Mexico » as actual sold by K....R or B......M. There are KONI
> >>>shocks,
> >>>
> >>> a very reliable & famous make (more expensive also). But I don't know if
> >Koni
> >>> make them always. Summit has Koni shocks on his catalog. I give you the
> >>> reference (as they are the same from 57 to 65) : Front : 80 C 1229 Rear :
> 82
> >>> 1066 Date of manufacturing : 11/64 If they are always manufactured, buy
> them
> >>>and
> >>>
> >>> don't buy
> $80.00 for four : I bought 4 gaz charged absorbers (from kanter)
> :
> >>> after one year, one was leaking and one was jamed ! Mexico made ...
> >>> >>Follow-up from Dietmar:
> >>> >>>You are right- KONI is the worlds best qualitiy shock absorbers for
> >street
> >>>and
> >>>
> >>> >>>race cars. They will serve You a 100 000 miles without any complain. I
> >use
> >>>them
> >>>
> >>> >>>on my IMP 60 so this havy car dont swim nor incline in the curve, I use
> >>>KONI
> >>>an
> >>>
> >>> >>>all sports car I have.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>---
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So I sent an email to Koni North America, inquiring about the above
> >mentioned
> >>>
> part numbers. Here is the reply:
> >>>
> >>> From: "Mclaughlin, Paul - ITT Motion Technologies"
> >>>
> >>> Haven't had those part#'s for years... I think u have to buy 50 cars sets
> >>each
> >>>
> >>> to get run made in
> Holland.
> >>>
> >>> Paul McLaughlin
> >>> Koni Shock Absorbers
> >>> ITT Corporation
> >>> Racing Technical Sales Rep.
> >>> 1961A International Way
> >>> Hebron, Ky. 41048
> >>> 800-922-2616 option 6
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>>
> >>> I checked on prices of Koni shocks. They are much more than the KYBs - for
> >>> example, on Koni's website, a pair of front shocks for a 1970 Dodge
> >>Challenger
> >>
> >>> lists for $320/pair (online price, $240) and the rear pair list for $380
> >>>(online
> >>>
> >>> price, $285). And they do go for upwards of $500/pair in some cases.
> >>>
> >>> To make the minimum order, I think it would be difficult to convince a total
> >>>of
> >>>
> >>> 50 people worldwide, between both 300
> clubs, the Imperial Club, both
> >>Christine
> >>
> >>> clubs, and all the members of the Forwardlook list, to drop $600 on a set
> of
> >>> Koni shocks, when there are discussions of the KYBs being far too expensive
> >>at
> >>>
> >>> over $100/set . . . and I wouldn't drive another one of these cars without
> >at
> >>> least KYBs on it. The difference, to you who don't know, is like AM radio
> >>> versus satellite radio.
> >>>
> >>> I personally would buy at least 2 sets of the Konis, after experiencing the
> >>> profound
> difference of KYBs, and knowing the Konis are another quantum leap
> >>> forward - I've only run them 65,000 miles on one car I've owned (a '62
> >Morgan
> >>> +4) and was very impressed. One important and interesting feature of the
> >>>Konis,
> >>>
> >>> is that they are adjustable for firmness/softness in their rebound action.
> >>> http://www.koni-na.com/comp.cfm
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> John Spiers
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There are some H.D. choices out there. Not many cheap one though.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.amazon.com/Bilstein-Heavy-Duty-Shock-Absorber/dp/B001HIAMWU/ref=au_pf_pfg_s?ie=UTF8&Model=300%7C2489&n=15684181&s=automotive&Make=Chrysler%7C39&Year=1970%7C1970&newCar=1&carId=001
> >>>
> >>>1
> >>>
> >>> Bill Huff
> >>>
> >>> At 7/21/201111:58 AM, Michael Moore wrote:
> >>> >I installed those on my 300H and was grateful to get them.
> >>> >I wish they were stiffer though.
> >>> >Its almost as though there are no shocks on the car, but insofar as
> >>> >I know, that's all thats available.I wish Koni made a set to fit.
> >>> >Mike
> Moore
> >>> >300H
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >On Jul 21, 2011, at 8:41 AM, Tony Bevacqua wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > KYB shocks. KG4507 and KG 5511 are the correct ones.
> I just made a
> >>> > > purchase for my 57 (shocks are correct for 1957 to 1964, I believe).
> >>> > > $116.32 for the 4 shocks, plus handling, etc.
> >>> > > Tony
> >>> > >
> >>> > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> >>> > > Behalf Of Marshall Larson
> >>> > >
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:26 AM
> >>> > > To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >
> > Subject: [Chrysler300] Shocks.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Any suggestions for an appropriate brand and model of shocks for a G. I
> >>> > > don't need anything exotic, just proper ride and to deal with the
> radials
> >>> > > that are on the car. All suggestions appreciated.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > MN Marshall
> >>> > >
> >>
> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>=
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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