Re: [Chrysler300] DOT Choice

[George McKovich <george@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

As far as I am concerned dot 5 is not a contaminate.



Sent from my iPhone 4


On Oct 14, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Up to you, I am not trying to get anyone to change back, just letting you
> know the ramifications of changing over! Again just my two cents worth. 
> Front end replacement body parts are getting harder to find now days! Your
> problem is you CAN NOT go back, unless you flush and replace every silicone
> contaminated rubber and plastic component in your brake system. I was just
> trying to help the other members before they made the same mistake you did,
> the damage is done leave it! It is imperative that you do not commingle the
> two fluids. You should mark your master cylinder as containing DOT 5 for
> safety and future reference to future owners. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------Original Message------- 
> 
> From: George McKovich 
> Date: 10/14/2010 9:26:44 PM 
> To: Intl 300 
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] DOT Choice 
> 
> 
> All I had to hear was "I worked for the government" to convince me to stay
> with dot5. 
> 
> George 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4 
> 
> On Oct 14, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> 
> > With all the talk about brakes and fluids, All I can say is your looking
> for 
> > trouble with DOT 5. Once you change over you cant go back unless you 
> > replace EVERY rubber part in your brake system. Dot 4 does every thing DOT 
> > 5 does except contaminate the system with silicone, unless you live on the 
> > north or south pole, or are running a dedicated race car, DON'T DO IT. 
> > Extreme and I mean Extreme heat or cold conditions are all that I can 
> > justify the use of DOT 5. I worked for the government and converted 
> > hundreds of vehicles over to DOT 5, that experience is the reason I wont
> do 
> > it to my cars. We kept consistently busy fixing DOT 5 related brake 
> > problems. The only reason they do change to DOT 5 is any vehicle can 
> > potentially go to any place in the world at any time, or that is the logic 
> > in the manual. I know, I know DOT 5 wont absorb moisture, that is correct 
> > but were does the moisture go??? O ya water is heaver than DOT 5, down to 
> > the bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers to stay, and that is why
> they 
> > start leaking from the corrosion on the sealing serfaces. If you
> completely 
> > purge or bleed your brake system every 30,000 or 35,000 like your supposed 
> > to, you will never have corrosion problems with DOT 3 or 4 because the 
> > moisture that is absorbed by the DOT 3 is gone when you do a system bleed.
> 
> > Problem is no one ever purges the system, out of sight out of mind until
> you 
> > have brake problems, Same with Transmissions, no one changes fluid &
> filter 
> > or thinks about it till a problem arises and by then it's tooooo late. O
> Ya 
> > when you bleed DOT 5 were does the moisture go? OOps, it is still at the 
> > bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers because it is not absorbed and
> is 
> > heaver than DOT 5!! That said this is not an overnight problem with any 
> > brake fluid, most of our cars are forty five years old or older and the 
> > brake problems are just showing up. Actually I think the moisture that is 
> > absorbed, is really a good thing if you service your system on a regular 
> > basis. That is why I invested in a power bleeder, about every five or six 
> > years I purge the systems on my cars and never have any problems other
> than 
> > replacing shoes or pads. Here is an article that is good information. This 
> > is just my $00.02 worth from experience, and I know everyone has a 
> > conflicting opinion, this is just mine. 
> > 
> > 
> > Battle of the DOTs 
> > DOT 3-4 Verses DOT 5. Which brake fluid should I use? 
> > "With regards to the DOT 3-4 verses DOT 5 brake fluid controversy, here is 
> > an article sent to me by Mr. Steve Wall. It is one of the most
> professional 
> > treatments I have seen on the subject". 
> > [I had to condense this article from 6 pages to 1 due to space limitations
> 
> > Brake Fluid Facts 
> > By Steve Wall 
> > As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major automotive brake 
> > system supplier, I feel both qualified and obligated to inject some
> material 
> > science facts into the murky debate about DOT 5 verses DOT 3-4 brake
> fluids. 
> > The important technical issues governing the use of a particular 
> > specification brake fluid are as follows: 
> > 1. Fluid compatibility with the brake system rubber, plastic and metal 
> > components. 
> > 2. Water absorption and corrosion. 
> > 3. Fluid boiling point and other physical characteristics. 
> > 4. Brake system contamination and sludging. 
> > Additionally, some technical comments will be made about the new brake
> fluid 
> > formulations appearing on the scene. 
> > First of all, it's important to understand the chemical nature of brake 
> > fluid. DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and glycol ethers. DOT 4 
> > contains borate esters in addition to what is contained in DOT 3. These 
> > brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze (ethylene 
> > glycol) and are not, as Dr. Curve implies, a petroleum fluid. DOT 5 is 
> > silicone chemistry. 
> > Fluid Compatibility 
> > Brake system materials must be compatible with the system fluid. 
> > Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of advertising, 
> > wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of chemical 
> > compatibility. Both DOT 3-4 and DOT 5 fluids are compatible with most
> brake 
> > system materials except in the case some silicone rubber external
> components 
> > such as caliper piston boots, which are attacked by silicon fluids and 
> > greases. 
> > Water absorption and corrosion 
> > The big bugaboo with DOT 3-4 fluids always cited by silicone fluid
> advocates 
> > is water absorption. DOT 3-4 glycol based fluids, just like ethylene
> glycol 
> > antifreezes, are readily miscible with water. Long term brake system water 
> > content tends to reach a maximum of about 3%, which is readily handled by 
> > the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid formulation. Since the 
> > inhibitors are gradually depleted as they do their job, glycol brake fluid
> 
> > just like anti-freeze, needs to be changed periodically. Follow BMW's 
> > recommendations. DOT 5 fluids, not being water miscible, must rely on the 
> > silicone (with some corrosion inhibitors) as a barrier film to control 
> > corrosion. Water is not absorbed by silicone as in the case of DOT 3-4 
> > fluids, and will remain as a separate globule sinking to the lowest point
> in 
> > the brake system, since it is more dense. 
> > Fluid boiling point 
> > DOT 4 glycol based fluid has a higher boiling point (446F) than DOT 3
> (401F) 
> > and both fluids will exhibit a reduced boiling point as water content 
> > increases. DOT 5 in its pure state offers a higher boiling point (500F) 
> > however if water got into the system, and a big globule found its way into
> a 
> > caliper, the water would start to boil at 212F causing a vapor lock 
> > condition [possible brake failure -Ed.]. By contrast, DOT 3 fluid with 3% 
> > water content would still exhibit a boiling point of 300F. Silicone fluids 
> > also exhibit a 3 times greater propensity to dissolve air and other gasses 
> > which can lead to a "spongy pedal" and reduced braking at high altitudes. 
> > DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluids are mutually compatible, the major disadvantage of 
> > such a mix being a lowered boiling point. In an emergency, it'll do. 
> > Silicone fluid will not mix, but will float on top. From a lubricity 
> > standpoint, neither fluids are outstanding, though silicones will exhibit
> a 
> > more stable viscosity index in extreme temperatures, which is why the US 
> > Army likes silicone fluids. Since few of us ride at temperatures very much 
> > below freezing, let alone at 40 below zero, silicone's low temperature 
> > advantage won't be apparent. Neither fluids will reduce stopping distances
> 
> > With the advent of ABS systems, the limitations of existing brake fluids 
> > have been recognized and the brake fluid manufacturers have been working
> on 
> > formulations with enhanced properties. However, the chosen direction has
> not 
> > been silicone. The only major user of silicone is the US Army. It has 
> > recently asked the SAE about a procedure for converting from silicon back
> to 
> > DOT 3-4. If they ever decide to switch, silicone brake fluid will go the
> way 
> > of leaded gas. 
> > Brake system contamination 
> > The single most common brake system failure caused by a contaminant is 
> > swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due to the 
> > introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power steering fluid, 
> > mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major damage. Flushing
> with 
> > mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system failure in a short
> time 
> > I suspect this is what has happened when some BMW owners changed to DOT 5 
> > (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem). Flushing with alcohol 
> > also causes problems. BMW brake systems should be flushed only with DOT 3
> or 
> > 4. 
> > If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the silicone will 
> > latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component deterioration and 
> > create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and eventually
> plug 
> > up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have already
> changed 
> > to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change back. Silicone is 
> > very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of your system.
> Just 
> > change the fluid regularly. For those who race using silicone fluid, I 
> > recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each racing session to 
> > insure that there is no water in the calipers. 
> > New developments 
> > Since DOT 4 fluids were developed, it was recognized that borate ester
> based 
> > fluids offered the potential for boiling points beyond the 446F
> requirement, 
> > thus came the Super DOT 4 fluids - some covered by the DOT 5.1 designation
> - 
> > which exhibit a minimum dry boiling point of 500F (same as silicone, but 
> > different chemistry). 
> > Additionally, a new fluid type based on silicon ester chemistry (not the 
> > same as silicon) has been developed that exhibits a minimum dry boiling 
> > point of 590F. It is miscible with DOT 3-4 fluids but has yet to see 
> > commercial usage. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >                
> > Herb 
> > 
> > 1956 Plymouth Belvedere 361 4-Sale 
> > 1959 Coronet 326 Poly 
> > 1961 Belvedere Custom Suburban 318 Poly 
> > 1962 Dodge Dart 225 Slant Six 4-Sale 
> > 1963 Fury 2D/HT 6.1L 
> > 1963 Sport Fury Convertible 361 
> > 1970 Chrysler 300 Hurst 440 
> > 1999 Durango SLT 5.9L 
> > 2008 SRT-8 Magnum 6.1L 
> > St. Louis, MO. 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
> > 
> > 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

To send a message to this group, send an email to:
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or
go to http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/join and select the "Leave Group" button

For list server instructions, go to http://www.chrysler300club.com/yahoolist/inst.htm

For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylangYahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    Chrysler300-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Chrysler300-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Chrysler300-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/