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There are 4 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: VIN De-coder,1960 Chrysler 1960.1965.
From: Bill Johnson <bjj@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
2. RE: VIN De-coder,1960 Chrysler 1960.1965.
From: "Jim Pristelski" <ajp002@xxxxxxx>
3. Re: Galen Govier
From: "Laurence G. Johnson" <laurence_g_johnson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
4. Head lamp doors
From: "David Zakarian" <arshog@xxxxxxxx>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 04:45:02 -0700
From: Bill Johnson <bjj@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: VIN De-coder,1960 Chrysler 1960.1965.
That would be my thoughts although this information surely either is or
was available from Chrysler and other sources at some point. I have no
problem "sharing" mine privately but wouldn't want to take the chance of
posting them on a web site.
I guess I really opened up a can of worms here. I don't want to mislead
anyone that I profess Galen is the "Official Decode Guru" by any one
else's standards other than his own. Other than purchasing the little
"white books" from him, I have had no other dealing with him or his
company.
Whiteshoes
moparted wrote:
>
> Copyright issues?
>
> --- Jim Pristelski <ajp002@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Why doesn't someone offer copies of his copies to
> > those on this listserver?
> > Jim
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Waters [mailto:ronbo97@xxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 9:21 AM
> > To: Bill Johnson
> > Cc: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] VIN De-coder,1960
> > Chrysler 1960.1965.
> >
> >
> > Bill -
> >
> > There is nothing 'official' about ANYTHING that GG
> > sells. He is a
> > self-appointed expert that has decided to sell
> > whatever knowledge he has
> > instead of exchanging it on listservers such as this
> > one. Don't believe the
> > hype !
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Johnson" <bjj@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: "David Agnew" <Fnnutz@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 6:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] VIN De-coder,1960
> > Chrysler 1960.1965.
> >
> >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > I am not sure what is meant by "original" in this
> > context. To my
> > > knowledge, the so called "official" Option Code
> > Books are the ones that
> > > Galen Govier produces and sells. They run $15.00
> > each plus $4.50 postage
> > > and handling. What throws me off is that his
> > version starts at 1962
> > > rather than 1960. Check out this link to his web
> > site and you can see
> > > what I am talking about:
> > >
> > > http://www.gvgovier.com/whitebooks.htm
> > >
> > > Could what you have be something that Chrysler
> > Dealers used for sales
> > > codes in the dealerships?
> > >
> > > Whiteshoes
> > >
> > > David Agnew wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Learned Moparpeople,
> > > > Anyone describe to me just how an original
> > 1960/65 decoder looks?
> > > > My copy, bought as original comes this way.
> > > >
> > > > P1. Cover.
> > > > Factory photos of 5 shots of '60's, taking up a
> > mere half of the A4
> > sheet. 12-1 on bottom left.
> > > >
> > > > P2. ( rev of P1)
> > > > Top heading of "NOTES".
> > > > And 11-4 on bottom right !
> > > >
> > > > P3.
> > > > VIN info. Body plate ID,etc, with 12-2 on the
> > bottom right.
> > > >
> > > > P4.
> > > > Body codes,Trim codes. 12-3 on bottom left.
> > > >
> > > > P5.
> > > > Imperial trim, paint codes. 12-4 on bottom
> > right.
> > > >
> > > > P6.
> > > > Engine numbers. 12-5 on bottom left.
> > > >
> > > > These are all on 3 separate sheets of lily white
> > A4 paper.
> > > >
> > > > Was the original stapled, joined, folded sheets,
> > whatever? Anyone have
> > one? Much appreciated evidence required about this
> > nice little earn which
> > is an outright scam, so I can snuff it out via
> > e-Bay. If anyone cares to
> > scan one and send it, I can take it!! And many
> > thanks will be forthcoming.
> > > > Thank you in advance,
> > > > Dave in NZ.
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:22:49 -0600
From: "Jim Pristelski" <ajp002@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: VIN De-coder,1960 Chrysler 1960.1965.
Hi All,
Copyrights protect the way that something is expressed. It does not
protect
basic information, concepts, ideas, etc. I have never seen any of GG's
booklets, so I don't know if he uses a copyright notice. The notice
consists of three parts: the word "Copyright" or the "C" in the circle,
the
name of the author, and the year in which the work was first created. For
example, "Copyright GG 1999".
As Ray points out, the coding system was created and developed by
Chrysler,
not GG. It was on the window stickers, on the vehicle data or fender tag,
and it was in the ordering materials that the dealers used to order a
vehicle with the desired options. Maybe the codes were in other places as
well. I don't ever remember seeing any copyright notice of Chrysler on the
window stickers. Certainly, it doesn't appear on the vehicle data or
fender
tag. Don't know about the dealer's ordering materials. Most of the codes
were used for many years, such as "D23" for a certain type of transmission
in the late 1960s, etc. However, some of the paint codes changed from
year
to year as new colors were introduced and then discontinued the following
year.
I wouldn't encourage copying of GG's booklets or other materials,
especially
if they contain a copyright notice. Right or wrong, it could take years
of
expensive litigation to resolve. About 15 years ago, there was a lot of
litigation over whether the compilations of telephone numbers contained in
telephone books were copyrightable. I believe that the final outcome was
that the telephone books were not copyrightable because it was simply a
compilation of information available in the public domain, i.e., a lack of
authorship or creativeness. However, other information commonly put into
the telephone books, such as the cover artwork, the advertisements in the
yellow pages, etc., probably is protectible through copyright law. Bottom
line: if you are going to copy, be careful what it is that you are
copying.
However, anyone can create their own compilation of the Chrysler codes,
just
as GG did, but don't copy or start with GG's materials if they bear any
copyright notice. At this time, I doubt that Chrysler cares about the
information, and they probably never copyrighted it anyway. If they still
have any enforceable rights in the coding information, I would expect that
they would have told GG to stop a long time ago! Best regards, Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 11:16 PM
To: moparted
Cc: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] VIN De-coder,1960 Chrysler 1960.1965.
Hi All;
I don't think copyright comes into play here, it's not his original
work. He has copied the info from Chrysler info. It's their original
work.
At best, you might have to rearrange the info so it's not a direct copy.
Pete Fitch would know for sure.
This may be a nice project for our club, since GG dosen't go back before
'62. We have many in the club who can decode various years buildsheets.
See ya in RI, don't forget!
Ray Jones
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 18:00:37 -0500
From: "Laurence G. Johnson" <laurence_g_johnson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Galen Govier
All,
I can tell you with certainty that a certification from Galen Glover
carries
nowhere near the authority or authenticity that the registration of a
business or oganization the the ISO-9000: 2000 quality standard carries.
Registration to that standard is performed through a registering body of
which there are several. Examples: Underwriters Laboratories (UL), British
Standards (BSI). In the USA these registering bodies are, in turn,
monitored
by the Registrar Accreditation Board (RAB). This upward line of authority
assures that registrants are held to measurable criterion in order to
become
registered and maintain their registrations.
The real question here is; for the function that Mr Glover is fulfilling,
is
such oversight warrented? I think not. I have used his literature for
finding various Chrysler parts for several years and have found them to be
a
reliable source. Are there exceptions? Yes.. Who knows what subsitutions
were made on some dimly lit 11-7 shift to keep the assembly line running?
Even in situations where factories have "officially" documented this type
of
information, it can also be incomplete, erronous, or misleading. I think
Galen work is a godsend to Chrysler enthuesasts in general and has become
the de facto standard.If he makes a buck at it, so be it.
The statement that his knowledge base in thin prior to 1962, to me at
least,
raises the issue that there is no organized, documented, central source
for
information concerning our cars other that this club. (maybe the "other
guys" too) Isn't it time we created our own Bible to establish the
authenticity of these cars? Gil Cunningham may want to retire one of
these
days, or George Rehl, or a dozen others that have carried the ball for
years. What does the club have to assure that future owners will have a
standard to judge "what is right" by?
Larry Johnson
>From: Paul Martin <Paul_Martin78@xxxxxxxxxx>
>To: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [Chrysler300] Galen Govier
>Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 19:41:52 -0800 (PST)
>
>I used Mr Goviers services in 1999 when I bought a 68 Dodge Charger. I
paid
>$50 for him to decode the body plate and didn't discover anything I
didn't
>already know. The document I got in return was stamped with an "official"
>stamp that persumably makes my one of 17,000 Dodge worth more.
>I spent .50 cents on a stamp last year and sent Gil Cunningham a letter
>requesting similar info on my 300F. I got back more than I bargained for
>along with a nice letter from a man who doesn't pretend to have now
magicly
>increased the value of my car by being exposed to its roots. Thanks Gil.
>I detest reading Hemmings and other ads that Read "Galen Govier
Certified".
>Is that like an ISO9000 certification in the mopar side of the car hobby.
>I read Govier's column in High performance Mopar for a laugh to find out
>how
>many 318 3 speed column shift 67 Fury III 2 dr hardtop with vinyl
interiors
>were sold without air conditioning in Florida.
>Govier admitted he knows little about pre 62 cars and less about "C"
body.
>In a recent article he stated he did not know ifthere were any "c" body 4
>speeds prior to 62. Only 9 very famous ones Mr Govier.
>
>I feel better now.
>Paul Martin
>Certified Car Nut
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
_____
>Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite
>Messenger
>http://messenger.excite.com
>
>
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:42:23 -0800
From: "David Zakarian" <arshog@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Head lamp doors
Are the doors on a C & D different. My C has only two mounting holes on
the bottom, but the D has two on the top and bottom(in line with the
chrome surround screw holes). Trying to determine which to paint. It
seems that the 4 hole model is much more secure in the fender.
Zak
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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